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Help with full custom party

I want to make my first full custom party run and i settled on 4 characters.
1. Berserker - halberds, staffs
2. Ranger/Cleric (with druid spells) - flails, hammers
3. Sorcerer
I'm not sure about the last one, should i make a f/m/t or m/t.
Im more inclined to make a fmt but im not sure if i have more need for a secondary mage, which the fmt probably won't be.

Comments

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 848
    I vote for m/t for that secondary mage. You have enough fighting power with the berserker and r/c. It’s a killer line-up, overall.

    Rik_KirtaniyaAerakarJuliusBorisov
  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,741
    Get Illusionist/Thief with Tuigan Bow and Darts. (Can later get the nice returning throwing daggers and the Firetooth crossbow). Extra spell slot, decent THAC0, and nice APR. You get both a secondary mage and good ranged firepower.

    AerakarJuliusBorisovOrlonKronsteen
  • kaja8kaja8 Member Posts: 45
    I guess you're right, m/t it is.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 1,014
    I'll throw in a vote for FMT here. Nothing wrong with gnome MT but you'll be a more effective backstabber as FMT without losing anything in the core thief competencies of traps/locks and (later) spike traps. You do suffer from low caster level on FMT as well as never getting epic level spells unless you use a cap remover, which are significant considerations. However the purpose of M in FMT is melee buffs + invisibility for which caster level isn't especially important, and it's not like MT gets epic level spells until fairly late into Throne of Bhaal anyway.

    gorgonzola
  • JQuailmanJQuailman Member Posts: 36
    You could also do a F/T if you just want a thief that can hold his own in melee and also backstab to great effect.

    Your berserker could also be dualled to mage or just do a FM instead.

    I recently finished a run with a custom 5 man party: Inquisitor FM RC FT Sorc, was a lot of fun with all those multi class characters!

  • kaja8kaja8 Member Posts: 45
    edited April 2020
    If I did a 5 man run I would have the same setup.
    I think I'm going to stick with m/t mainly because i would rather keep him out of the heat and stick to ranged and spells, not worrying too much about micromanaging him. I got the tendency to play every thief/fighter i the same way, backstabbing and using uai for all kinds of stuff, which makes the rest of the party at situations obsolete, and i dont see how i could use the fmt any other way. I'll try to avoid that this time. Also, a flexible caster next to the sorcerer could come handy.

    Sidenote. I thought about other custom 4 man parties I could play and most of them come out quite nitpicky well rounded. Do you have suggestions for 4 man parties that aren't go to ideas, seem weird but are devastating? Kit multi included, I'll use eekeeper.

    Post edited by kaja8 on
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited April 2020
    imo a secondary mage is very helpful, at least until the main one reaches very high levels and can spam spells at will using PI and improved alacrity.
    even more if the main mage is a sorcerer, does not matter how good you are at choosing which spells he knows, to have someone able to cast the ones that he has not learned is super useful as opens tactics that are not possible with only a sorcerer as arcane caster.
    also to have an other toon able to use the mage only wands is very useful as a wand has no casting time but if you use it you can not also cast in the same round, not even with improved alacrity active (you can, but the wand has to be used after the regular spells), and a FT can use wands only when he gets UAI, so the party has an high level and the wands have lost a lot of their power, they are strong at the beginning when the spells memorized are few and less powerful, so using the wands give to the party some more mileage each day (if the player has not problem in selling and buying them to recharge them, thing that probably is really needed only once as you get enough charges to use them until they become less powerful and useful).

    this is one reason why i think that the FMT is the better choice in that party.
    the other is that even if he will be slightly behind a FT as thac0 and thieving skills is a much more useful fighter as offensively hits only a little less, having 1 or 2 thac0 points less, depending on the particular moment of the progression, but defensively is a much better tank, he can use his spells both to get a super low AC and to protect himself from physical attacks with mirror images and stoneskin or with the PFMW-Mantle line. The latter lets him tank vampires ignoring the risk of being level drained or late game foe with outrageous Thac0, that hit often even the well armored guys.
    as he can also be protected against the spells and debuffing, as he can use SI and other spells like the globes.
    and last but not least the FMT can use the SoTM, with its super powerful dispel on hit, right when you get it, the FT has to wait UAI to use it.
    the only real con of the triple class is improving later the stabbing multiplier, but as a mage can use his magic (the cheap invisibility spell or the super powerful mislead) to stab twice in a round or multiple times for many rounds without using consumables it is really not a problem.
    I would say that combos like hit with the SoTM to get rid of the enemy stoneskin, invisibility and stab in the same round are super useful, then he can equip the SoTM to go to hide again and repeat.

    about the weapon proficiency what you plan works well, still i see a couple of ways to improve it.
    1. staves. they are the best weapons to stab and SoTM is super powerful, probably is the FMT and not the berseker that can make the best use of them.
    2. a single class berseker is super powerful, dual classes are more powerful, but to use a single class is not wrong at all, but his kit don't allow him to have a ranged option, that he can only have using returning weapons, daggers, axes and if is a dwarf the hammer. also pushing on 2 different 2H weapons does not allow him to DW, maybe with a +1 apr weapon in the OH or use a shield when some more AC is needed. so i would not use the staff with him, but push to GM halberds, that are very good but slightly underrated weapons while also working to have a DW or ranged option, daggers seem to me very good as mlee in the MH they give anyway +1 apr. if the berseker is good aligned also axes are a very good choice for the anti undead one and because a powerful berseker looks better welding a big axe then a little dagger, even if the returning daggers are actually more powerful.
    3. hammers... i am thinking to one of them, we all think at it, crom. imho the worst thing to do is to give it to a cleric, to a class that can at will bring his str to 25 anyway, every party that do it is a party that has to fight the main battles with only a fighter with 25 str (+7 thac0, +14 dmg), if is basically wasted in the hand of a cleric as its only advantage is to have him at 25 str for the minor battles when he does not care to buff because the 25 str is not needed at all. it can be the perfect OH weapon for the berseker if you open him to the DW option, at least until you get the super powerful vorpal halberd, that is quite late in ToB, and with firetooth in the MH (+1apr) and crom in the OH (25 str) your berseker will destroy fast every enemy that does not require more then +3 weapons, there is only a bunch of them in the whole game.
    4. when the vorpal halberd is assembled probably the FMT will have plenty of pips to DW and use crom in the OH as he can not go past specialization, at that point stabbing is less useful, but he can any way have a good not stabbing MH weapon, the staff of the ram in the second weapon slot and crom in the OH one, so he begins the fight with a spectacular stab, then he switches to DW with 25 str as the berseker spam no save vorpal attacks with GWW.
    5. even if the SoTM is as good as the paladin sword to dispel on hit the sword can in some situations be useful for the MR that gives, but a FMT should have enough pips to be specialized in staff, in a good 1H weapon for the main hand, to have some ranged option (even if MMM are the perfect ranged option as are thrown with fighter thac0), at least 2 pips in DW style and spare some pip for the pally sword. if not it should not be the priority as the spells can grant him a even better immunity then 50%MR and while DW or using the staff of the ram he is more damaging then with the pally sword.

    i hope this can help you in the choice.
    EDIT: choice that gives a lot of versatility as the party can have always the better options depending on the items that are gotten or assembled and can have a high profile configuration when GWW are used and a low profile one when are not used, so let's say crom can be used by the berseker in regular battles when 2 more apr and 25 str are better then a low chance of a vorpal effect, but can be passed to the FMT for the main battles when GWW makes the vorpal much more likely to happen often and at the same time the FMT gains thac0, apr and damage by DW with 25 str, if he also don't uses his GWW, but he will have less of them as he has also to invest in traps, UAI and maybe in more lev 7 and 8 spells some HLA, so the GWW rounds with ram will be less each day compared to the berseker.

  • JQuailmanJQuailman Member Posts: 36
    As for weapon profs, focus on what you want the berserker to swing. Staffs and Halberds are great. Dual wielding some combination of axe, long sword, scimitar, katana is also great. He’s your only character that will get above specialized and has zero weapon restrictions (outside of UAI). Not sure if you plan to take NPCs with you for the long haul but that can also impact these decisions.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    imo to try to have the best overall efficiency and a party that can use all the best weapons is better then focusing on a single toon, even a berseker charname.

    both the RC and the 4rth member if he has some fighter in it, like a FT or FMT, are almost as important offensively, they will be only 1/2 apr behind but if the other toon is a multi, thing that in that party seems to me the best option, they will both have GWW, so the apr difference is even less important.

    the staff of the ram is very strong in the hands of a berseker grand master, but is probably even more strong in the ones of a FT or FMT, as will hit only 1/2 attack less often but will grant super stabs, and this is only one of the examples of how the overall party power is more important of the power of charname, that is not much limited by not using the SotR if he uses the pips to open a DW option, it is only a better weapons and proficiency distribution in the party.

  • kaja8kaja8 Member Posts: 45
    The R/C is supposed to be the tank with ironskin, armor of faith, the defensive flail in his OH and eventualy hardiness. If I also give him the mirror image ring from rasaads quest he is going to tank all melee. The berserker was supposed to be the main damage dealer who comes up behind the rc with a halberd. The sorcerer is going to do what he does and the FMT or MT is going to fill the gap inbetween. What I experienced when doing a fmt solo once is that his mage part is mostly there to support and protect himself.
    @gorgonzola that is how i played fmt before but in this party that seems a liability. I'll sleep on that.
    I play the game for the last 20 years but I never played with a sorcerer, r/c and plain berserker (except korgan). Also, i never did halberds besides seravok getting the vorpal one. Once I'll get Gww it will be worth it.
    But I like your idea for the berserker. Dagger/Crom sounds very good! He will get enough pips for everything.
    @JQuailman i thought about how its going to be boring without other NPCs so I decided tho change their classes to those i'll decide to make. I get the chance to try parties i never played and not worry about their classes.
    Charname - fmt or mt
    Viconia - berserker
    Jaheira - sorcerer
    Aerie - r/c

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    @kaja8
    FMT solo is very strong as it is almost a complete party on his own, lacking only of divine magic and high level arcane spells.
    But even in a party it is super useful, you will be surprised if you did not play it in a party before, and the reason is its incredible versatility, he and not the Bard is the real jack of all the trades, that excels in no one but is very very good in most of them.
    he is at the same time the party thief, almost as good as Jan in it as if he has not Jan's special items and some thieving points less he has actually the right thac0 to stab also well armored enemies, not only mages with shitty AC, a very good secondary mage and a very good tank, even better then the RC, as he can protect his buffs with SI and can be completely be untouchable by weapons and spells, while the RC, even with ironskin and reduced damage from the flail and hardiness can be still level drained by a vampire, is not protected against the special mordy swords in the battle with ravager and can die or be incapacitate if he fails to save against some spells.
    This being also a very good flanker when needed, and is not difficult to have him perform a stab at the beginning of each round using invisibility items (potions and rings) or his low level and fast cast invisibility spells.
    When the party needs it is one of the best thieves, when the party needs arcane support is perfectly capable, and can be both tank or flanker, almost as good as dedicated fighters.

    And i am not even talking of the battles he can win on his own in a single round, like the ones with the WK dragons. trigger them hostile, as to attack saladrex before is not fair, then a single hit with the SoTM or the pally sword (UAI is needed for the latter) to dispel his protection then GWW and staff of the ram. he will fall in a single round without even being able to land a single hit...

    there is no other toon that can perform effortlessly so many roles as the FMT in a party, and he is only very marginally inferior covering them compared to single or dual/multi classes dedicated for that specific role.
    he is a freaking good jack of all the trades, while he can cover some specific roles better then any one else.

    and i suggest you to use viky as sorcerer (mainly for her high wis that is super useful with the wish spell) and jaheira as berseker, she is already a fighter. At least if you plan to change only their class but keep the stats, maybe minmaxing them only to make the new class legittimate, as i usually do.
    if you give them completely new stats then every one can be everything without problem, but i fail to see a viconia or aerie with very high con and 18.00 str as the right way to go ;)

  • kaja8kaja8 Member Posts: 45
    edited April 2020
    Haha i think you successfully sold me the fmt. I could give it a try.

    Regarding viconia and the rest, I definitely wont be giving them stats as if i rolled 50 times. I'll relocate them a bit to make them eligible. If i changed everything it would get to easy and eventually boring.

  • Adam_en_tiumAdam_en_tium Member Posts: 99
    Hello,

    How do you change npc class ? EEkeeper ? No problems on level ups ?

    Thanks :)

    kaja8
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    the way i use is to create a clone of the npc with the same stats as a charname, let's say that i want a viconia sorcerer, i make a sorcerer with the same stats that i name fakeviconia. then i level up it to the same xp viconia has when i find her and i use him to copy and paste to the real viconia, after i have changed her class, the hp and everything else relevant. In EEkeeper is possible to have 2 saves opened at the same time to copy and paste.

    i know that there is an other simpler way to re roll the hp and the rest directly in EEkeeper, so she will have the correct hp and learned spells of a sorcerer, as a cleric gets more hp and does not learn spells leveling up, but i don't know how it exactly works.
    if some one knows it please tell us how to do it in the simple way.

    OrlonKronsteen
  • Adam_en_tiumAdam_en_tium Member Posts: 99
    Thanks @gorgonzola !

    I actually just read that eekeeper is not compatible with a mod that I use (tome & blood). And that it's best to use NearInfinity... So if someone has a way to change NPC class in that tools, I'm very interested :D

    ++

  • kaja8kaja8 Member Posts: 45
    @gorgonzola do i copy everything as it is on the fakenpc or do i, as some other posts i read suggest, change the class and put the level to 0 with 1 exp then level it up ingame and the change the exp in eekeeper again. Other posts suggeat that i put the thac0 to 20 and reset the hp before leveling the npc.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    @kaja8 yes i think that HP and thac0 have to be reset, ie if you simply take a lev 9 viconia, make her a lev0 sorcerer with 1 xp, then you cheat in the right amount of xp in the game to match the xp she had the moment you recruit her she will gain HP and Thac0 on top of the one she had by her former levels of cleric, so you have a cheesy sorcerer with much more HP and better thac0 then a sorcerer of that level should have.
    As I am not completely sure of what has to be reset i build a charname sorcerer with the same stats of viconia's ones, minmaxing an average roll to have the relevant ones match, int, str and char don't add any hp, while the very same con is much more important. then i cheat in the needed xp in the game to match viky's one and after saving I copy and paste from that save to the one where i give to viconia the new class everything that is different, HP, thac0, number of spells learned and so on.
    but it is slower so if someone knows exactly what to do to have a fair result only setting the lev to 0 and xp to 1, without having to go trough the creation of a fake clone, i would be very satisfied.

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