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Bard vs. F/M/T - place your bets!!

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  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    10thLich said:


    A dual-wielding level 13 Fighter with only 2 stars in every weapon he uses will get to the nonmagicial cap of 5 apr with Belm or any other +1 apr weapon. GWW sets your apr to 10, meaning it benefits Fighters with < 5 apr the most. But as soon as you reach that cap Improved Haste accomplishes the same thing for a longer time period.

    10th

    The F/M/T can also be guaranteed to hit every time with the critical feat or to backstab every hit with the assassination feat. Melee is by far the biggest difference between the classes - thac0; base attacks; and HLAs. The bard can move up to the F/M/T's level for limited periods of time with multiple rounds worth of buffing (and sometimes downsides like with defensive spin or tensor's).

    I think the biggest difference in thieving abilities is the detect illusion ability which means the F/M/T dispels any illusions without using up the chance for a spell action for the round. Other thieving abilities are not useful in combat or are a push (more traps for Bard versus at least a realistic way to use traps during combat for F/M/T with SI:Divination + Invisibility).

    For spells, I still see it as a push. Higher spell power for the bard (particularly flame arrow, dispel and remove magic, and skull trap) versus higher level spells for the F/M/T. The bard can't sequence spells but his ability to flat out dispel magic dominates the F/M/T's. That adds up to push for me on magic.
  • 10thLich10thLich Member Posts: 99
    edited October 2012
    More caster levels means nothing if everything is capped at level 20. Spell level is another matter, and here the FMT pulls ahead, as he has access to levels 7 and 8.

    The supposed benefits a bard gets over a FMT at the xp cap when both use Tenser's translates into a 18 seconds longer duration and one point of ThAC0 and that's it.

    At level 20 you get a 120 second Tenser's with the following stats
    ThAC0 set to 3 (that's the ThAC0 of an level 18 Fighter)
    ThAC0 bonus of 2
    AC bonus of 4
    Damage bonus of 2
    Hit points set to 200%

    At level 17 you only get 102 seconds and ThAC0 set to 4

    Moreover, when the bard has run out spells and switches to Tenser's a FMT still has the ability to cast level 7 and 8 spells. Which would be 1 level 7 and 2 level 8 if both cast the same amount of spells.

    10th
  • Dantos4Dantos4 Member Posts: 58
    edited October 2012
    And that was my point, was it not? I fail to see what your problem with this is. Please read my full argument 10thLich. I am not on either side of the fence, I am stating that they negate each other almost exactly... which you just proved with your calculations. I notice you do not include offensive spin (max damage from all attacks and + to hit and damage).

    Overall they cancel each other out. No where did I state "lol Blade owns F/M/T everywhere!!", the point was that TT negates the Thac0 bonus a F/M/T would have in melee, which it does (combined with offensive spin it is even better). If you re-read my statements I have stated that a F/M/T would have the magical advantage.

    Also, out of curiosity, why did you use a lvl18 fighter's Thac0 for a max level Blade? Is there a cap on the spell?

    As far as I aware (going by the spell description) the transformation grants them Thac0 to that of an equal level Fighter. E.g. a level 20+ fighter who has 0 Thac0 and not 3. But then, I am not aware of the caps and bugs on some spells.
  • Dantos4Dantos4 Member Posts: 58
    edited October 2012
    I just did a fair bit of extensive testing and these are my results:

    F/M/T gets more HLA opportunities but there are also more to take than Blade's. (I think it was 16/17 VS 20)
    F/M/T gets 3 more spells in total but lower casting level and access to higher spells
    F/M/T is a little better in melee combat, but contrary to popular belief can only put 2 stars into any weapon. I see posts on here referencing grand mastery.
    Both get access to all items in the game and both have ways of increasing their melee abilities for short durations. The F/M/T has less "time" in melee power mode but hits harder, Blade hits weaker but has much, much more time in these modes.
    Blade gains more from TT than F/M/T does.
    Blade has more HP (both started with 18CON, just to be safe), the difference is doubled with TT, too.

    Again, to refute the claim of the OP that the F/M/T would walk over the Bard/Blade:

    Blade =
    Powerful spellcasting but for lower duration.
    Good melee but for much longer duration.
    F/M/T = L
    Less powerful (in spell levels) spells, but access to more variety and can cast for marginally longer before depleting all spells.
    Powerful melee but only for short durations (usually 1 round)

    IMO it depends fully on the player. I again propose that it is an infinite possibility theory, especially when you factor in the randomness of the rolls. A F/M/T would not walk all over a Blade and a Blade would not walk all over a Bard. It all depends on the situation.

    It has infinite possibilities. E.G. the bard has memorised exclusively evocation spells. F/M/T casts spell immunity: Evocation. Bard is boned. They both have the capability of smacking each other 3 ways from Sunday. They can both easily damage enough to kill each other and they can both defend against each other. It would depend on how the player played it, not an auto-win based on which class you picked.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    10thLich said:

    More caster levels means nothing if everything is capped at level 20. Spell level is another matter, and here the FMT pulls ahead, as he has access to levels 7 and 8.

    The premise of your argument seems to be that everything is capped at level 20. It isn't. Flame arrow, remove magic, dispel magic, etc. continue to level and progress and the caster level difference is quite significant on those spells.

    Tensor's seems to be a non-issue. If either character cast it early, they would be destroyed. That is incredibly unlikely. A short break in defenses for the bard means death at the wrong time (like with assassination active) and magical protection dropping at the wrong time for the F/M/T could lead to quick death with level 40 flame arrow. It isn't going to come down to the two characters having blown all their spells and HLA and now just slugging it out so while it looks good on paper, that doesn't mean much.

    (With the focus on the blade, is the idea that this is the form of Bard that is significantly better than the standard bard or other kits? That is my opinion, but I wasn't sure if everyone thought that.)
  • 10thLich10thLich Member Posts: 99
    AHF said:


    The premise of your argument seems to be that everything is capped at level 20. It isn't. Flame arrow, remove magic, dispel magic, etc. continue to level and progress and the caster level difference is quite significant on those spells.

    Flame Arrow is capped at level 20
    Remove/Dispel Magic uses caster level capped at 20
    http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=17799&st=0&p=152080&#entry152080
    etc.

    Use Near Infinity and take a look at all those spells and you'll see for yourself that there is no entry for caster level > 20.

    10th

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    does the inquisitor cast as level 40 with its dispel magic at level 20? since it works at double level?
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    edited October 2012
    I haven't read the whole thread so excuse if these points have been made. I think it essentially comes down to this:

    1) Tenser's is just a bad idea. Not being able to cast spells makes you a sitting duck and you will be able to hit hard enough with 10APR anyway that when the protections go down, neither will last very long.

    2) Both can make themselves immune to each other with combinations of illusions and spell/combat protections.

    If you want to assume both are Bhaalspawn with immunity to +1 weapons or less from the Hell trial then ignore this point: If you want protection from all weapons, then you need Aslyferund Chain and PfMW. Normal weapons will still hit very hard. IIRC Arrows of Dispelling are also unenchanted so you NEED to stop them in this fight, although there is also PFN Missiles.

    I have always been under the impression that Dispel does not cap at 20 through my own observations and general knowledge, but this doesn't even matter due to SI: Abjuration. Breach gets through SI:A, but Improved Invisibility + SI: Divination prevents targetting.

    3) The F/M/T has Detect Illusions to go through the Invis+SI:D combo.

    4) The F/M/T has Stealth which he can combine with Non-Detection, with which he can sit there and just wait.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    A few things.

    1) Bards can also use long bows, which is easily the strongest weapon type in BG1.
    2) The vanilla bard song protects against (or removes) Fear. Horror is a popular spell in BG1 (for future reference, it doesn't do anything else. The luck bonus thing was never implemented).
    3) In BG1 both FMTs and Bards can play smart. Instead of spending long hours fighting monsters for XP they can focus on finishing easy quests and aim for that wand of summoning/amulet of missiles/wand of paralyzation? Any of these, used correctly, are outright OP in BG1.
    4) Bards can abuse the Enhanced Bard Song HLA by mass producing images. Note that the HLA grants bonus to THAC0, damage, AC and magic resistance. In a war of cheese, you might find that the FMT is at a severe disadvantage if both classes start the battle fully buffed. Even the Jester's song ignores magic resistance - the only defense against it is outright immunity. One of the ToB patches improves the Jester's song in ToB by adding both a slow and stun effect. All it takes is for the FMT to mess up 1 saving throw...
    5) Ranged attacks are out in this battle. There is a shield in the adventurer's mart that reflects ranged weapon ammo back at the attacker, and either class can use it.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    6) This has nothing to do with the topic, but Improved Haste and Offensive Spin do stack. They didn't use to, but for some reason they do. What matters is the order you cast them in. You could say this is the Blade's version of Whirlwind except it's available in SoA.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    10thLich said:

    AHF said:


    The premise of your argument seems to be that everything is capped at level 20. It isn't. Flame arrow, remove magic, dispel magic, etc. continue to level and progress and the caster level difference is quite significant on those spells.

    Flame Arrow is capped at level 20
    Remove/Dispel Magic uses caster level capped at 20
    http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=17799&st=0&p=152080&#entry152080
    etc.

    Use Near Infinity and take a look at all those spells and you'll see for yourself that there is no entry for caster level > 20.

    10th

    Good to know on flame arrow.

    I tested both of these and found the flame arrow was the same for level 40 Edwin and level 27/20 Jan. (Roughly 50-60 damage on Anomen when he made his save).

    Dispel magic, however, worked radically differently for the level 40 mage versus the level 27/20 thief/mage. Edwin dispelled Jan's protections every time. Jan never dispelled Edwin's protections. Both may be cast at level 20, but the effect on the SC versus the MC is radically different due to the difference in level.
    Rufus
  • Raistlin82Raistlin82 Member Posts: 256
    Rufus said:


    Bard would be cool for a change and I never played the Fighter/Mage/Thief, cuz I allways thought it would suck..... but then I went over the progression tables.

    You remind me of Nale.

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376

    Rufus said:


    Bard would be cool for a change and I never played the Fighter/Mage/Thief, cuz I allways thought it would suck..... but then I went over the progression tables.

    You remind me of Nale.

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

    Third time that has appeared in this thread alone! :)
  • Raistlin82Raistlin82 Member Posts: 256
    AHF said:


    Third time that has appeared in this thread alone! :)

    Really?
    I did a quick search to see if somebody mentioned "Order", "Stick" or "Nale", but it didn't show anything.
    Oh well, it means that it's appropriate.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    Definitely appropriate:
    CaptRory said:

    Check the last row of panels at the very bottom of the page:
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

  • EvinfuiltEvinfuilt Member Posts: 505
    AHF said:

    Definitely appropriate:

    CaptRory said:

    Check the last row of panels at the very bottom of the page:
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

    and it has forced me to start reading the whole strip from page 1. Poor Nale, just because he's evil doesn't mean he's a bad person.
    jhart1018
  • jhart1018jhart1018 Member Posts: 909
    Nale is definitely a bad person. Then again, so is Belkar, and I love him. OOTS gets better and better as it goes because it becomes a real story, not just a series of gags. It's still pants-wettingly funny, but you keep coming back because you desperately want to know what's going to happen next.
  • GygaxianProseGygaxianProse Member Posts: 201
    Dantos4 said:

    While this is true, this is assuming the F/T/M can even hit the bard, who would dispel haste and trigger defensive spin (up to -10AC on top of normal AC and spells). Offensive spin then offers +2 to hit, damage and 1+ Attack per round (doubled with haste?) AND Max damage per hit. The theoretical side of it is never ending. "I use X to counter Y"... "Oh yeah? Well Z counters Y!"...

    It is really one of those moot points, to be honest.
    Could a max F/T/M beat a max Bard (particularly a Blade)? Yes.
    Could a max Bard (Particularly a Blade) beat a max F/T/M? Yes.

    What does it come down to? Playstyle, roleplaying, that sort of jazz.

    Yes, exactly. And, even at max level, you still have to roll the dice.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    Sorry for not noticing my name being invoked on this board before. The High Level Campaigns book (one of the Skills and Options Books) says Bards get 8th level spells starting at level 29.
    Dragonspearveskoamdroid
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