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[MOD IDEA] Limited Resting

SirickSirick Member Posts: 92
Howdy folks!

Something I've been tossing around in my head is the idea of changing how resting works in Baldur's Gate and other IE games.

It's always bugged me how you can mostly ignore temple services, drop a few coins at the local inn (or just sprawl out on the floor somewhere if you're feeling cheap), sleep a few times (or once) and heal up good as new.

So I'd like to get some input on the ideas I've got to give the resting system a bit of an overhaul! Keep in mind, my Baldur's Gate modding so far has been mostly tweaking NPC's, Items or just making little pictures for portraits, so please bear with me if I say anything that's dumb and the engine clearly can't do.

Here are some of the ideas I'm currently brainstorming. Any input, suggestions, warnings on issues that might be caused, or just general criticism is welcomed. (Also, I'd suggest “Rest Until Healed” is off for the full mod experience, but I think things would still work with it turned on).
1. Limited Resting
Probably the main thing I'd want to accomplish. Resting can only be done once every 12 hours (by default).
The party would not be able to rest again, either at an Inn or in the wilderness until the timer has run out.


2. Natural Healing (Regeneration)
Regeneration is obviously something that's in the game already. But I think it might be fun to have a slow regeneration of hitpoints over time (slower than default regen).
This would represent the characters naturally healing from injuries. Con score could possibly either dictate how quickly a character would heal, or how many hitpoints they recover.


3. Fatigue Overhaul
An expansion on the fatigue system.
This may not be needed, as default penalties from fatigue may suffice. However, not being able to rest at will may mean players will have to play with certain NPC's fatigued for longer periods of time. This could possibly present the opportunity to add interesting debuffs.

I know some in-game events require the party to rest, but I don't think putting a timer on the resting would cause any issues with any of these. However, if anyone can think of an issue that might arise, please do let me know.

So! That's my idea. Wherever or not I get around to doing anything about it depends mostly on how well I can learn to mod the Infinity Engine. But I certainly would appreciate any suggestions or advice.

Thanks for reading!
Ludwig_IIGusindaMantis37GrammarsaladStummvonBordwehr

Comments

  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 369
    I think this is a great mod idea. I asked for something like this as a future tweak request in Cdtweaks forum too.

    I always try to limit my resting while I play, but it would be much better to have the game impose that on me instead of me trying to decide on the best time to rest without feeling like I'm cheating every time. And to be honest, being able to infinitely rest is not realistic at all.

    As for my opinion on your ideas, I think the major need is for limiting resting mechanic now. So, I would focus on getting idea 1 implemented and released first, and then build future versions on top of that afterwards with the other ideas. I think this will give you a chance to go step by step and start getting feedback from the people using it at the same time.

    Also, I would prefer not to change the regeneration mechanic, so if you implement it, it would be great if you could make the components separate and optional.

    I have no experience on modding, so all I can do is wishing you all the best with your IE modding journey!
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    There is nothing stopping me from finding a motel, renting a room, and lazing away days and weeks, save my bank account balance. Resting til I die is realistic, just impractical. I don't think a timer that limits rest is realistic.

    What isn't realistic about resting a ton is the urgency of the tasks that need doing. The game doesn't impose much in the way of consequences for taking our time, but a DM surely would.

    Rather than artificially limiting rest, it would be cool if wasting too much time had consequences, including an "Irenicus" wins ending. There is a little of this, such as
    Jaheira's death if you don't lift her curse in time
    .

    This idea would definitely be more difficult to implement than a timer, but I feel a sense of urgency is more effective and realistic than an arbitrary timer.

    Make it so Imoen can die if we take too long. Make it so Trademeet or the keep is left in ruins if we take too long, and not based on when we decide to take the quest. The rest of the world is theoretically still moving while we rest, yes? I'd love to walk into the Copper Coronet, and see Nalia weeping, bemoaning how no one would help her, and now it's too late.

    IMO, a cooldown on rest would just be tedious. But Korgan disappearing because someone else decided to work with him while I lounged upstairs? Rhasaad dying in some cave for me to come across later? The entire thief guild became vampires because I took a vacation? The elves go extinct because I skinned my knee? A certain silver dragon goes mad after losing that which is most precious, attacking the countryside? Now THAT would be a motivator to limit resting.
    Grammarsalad
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 2,669
    @megamike15 you just described my nightmare game. :|
    Yes, if resting too much has no consequence at all and feels like cheating it spoils the game, but making all quests timered would be a nightmare for me.

    On topic:
    1. I'm not sure this could be implemented easily (but then, I lost track of what is possible with all those shiny new features in the EE)
    2. this is actually pretty cool, since it's realistic, but I'd assume regeneration rate would be rather very slow
    3. you mean more disadvantages while being fatiqued? I'd not be fond of that in combination with restricted resting, I think not healing fully and/or not being able to refresh spells is already quite a disadvantage.
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    edited September 2019
    Sirick wrote: »
    Howdy folks!

    Something I've been tossing around in my head is the idea of changing how resting works in Baldur's Gate and other IE games.

    It's always bugged me how you can mostly ignore temple services, drop a few coins at the local inn (or just sprawl out on the floor somewhere if you're feeling cheap), sleep a few times (or once) and heal up good as new.

    So I'd like to get some input on the ideas I've got to give the resting system a bit of an overhaul! Keep in mind, my Baldur's Gate modding so far has been mostly tweaking NPC's, Items or just making little pictures for portraits, so please bear with me if I say anything that's dumb and the engine clearly can't do.

    Here are some of the ideas I'm currently brainstorming. Any input, suggestions, warnings on issues that might be caused, or just general criticism is welcomed. (Also, I'd suggest “Rest Until Healed” is off for the full mod experience, but I think things would still work with it turned on).
    1. Limited Resting
    Probably the main thing I'd want to accomplish. Resting can only be done once every 12 hours (by default).
    The party would not be able to rest again, either at an Inn or in the wilderness until the timer has run out.


    2. Natural Healing (Regeneration)
    Regeneration is obviously something that's in the game already. But I think it might be fun to have a slow regeneration of hitpoints over time (slower than default regen).
    This would represent the characters naturally healing from injuries. Con score could possibly either dictate how quickly a character would heal, or how many hitpoints they recover.


    3. Fatigue Overhaul
    An expansion on the fatigue system.
    This may not be needed, as default penalties from fatigue may suffice. However, not being able to rest at will may mean players will have to play with certain NPC's fatigued for longer periods of time. This could possibly present the opportunity to add interesting debuffs.

    I know some in-game events require the party to rest, but I don't think putting a timer on the resting would cause any issues with any of these. However, if anyone can think of an issue that might arise, please do let me know.

    So! That's my idea. Wherever or not I get around to doing anything about it depends mostly on how well I can learn to mod the Infinity Engine. But I certainly would appreciate any suggestions or advice.

    Thanks for reading!

    I sort of have a version of 2 in the works. I am doing a mod that tries to emulate a non weapon proficiency system. One of those nwps is healing, which if successful increases natural healing in this way (depending on how many ranks you have in healing).

    I've been thinking about doing something with fatigue, but nothing has really struck me. One idea I had, which is only peripherally related to the op was to use fatigue as an additional resource, meaning that certain abilities drainedfatigue and aren'tusable if your fatigue level is too high (e.g. a fatigued kensai doesn't have the reserves to kai). Another nwp planned is endurance which would allow one to recover some fatigue by using a 'second wind' ability.

    Edit:
    There is nothing stopping me from finding a motel, renting a room, and lazing away days and weeks, save my bank account balance. Resting til I die is realistic, just impractical. I don't think a timer that limits rest is realistic.

    What isn't realistic about resting a ton is the urgency of the tasks that need doing. The game doesn't impose much in the way of consequences for taking our time, but a DM surely would.

    Rather than artificially limiting rest, it would be cool if wasting too much time had consequences, including an "Irenicus" wins ending. There is a little of this, such as
    Jaheira's death if you don't lift her curse in time
    .

    This idea would definitely be more difficult to implement than a timer, but I feel a sense of urgency is more effective and realistic than an arbitrary timer.

    Make it so Imoen can die if we take too long. Make it so Trademeet or the keep is left in ruins if we take too long, and not based on when we decide to take the quest. The rest of the world is theoretically still moving while we rest, yes? I'd love to walk into the Copper Coronet, and see Nalia weeping, bemoaning how no one would help her, and now it's too late.

    IMO, a cooldown on rest would just be tedious. But Korgan disappearing because someone else decided to work with him while I lounged upstairs? Rhasaad dying in some cave for me to come across later? The entire thief guild became vampires because I took a vacation? The elves go extinct because I skinned my knee? A certain silver dragon goes mad after losing that which is most precious, attacking the countryside? Now THAT would be a motivator to limit resting.

    Oh, I really like this
    StummvonBordwehr
  • SirickSirick Member Posts: 92
    Some helpful advice so far!
    I would prefer not to change the regeneration mechanic, so if you implement it, it would be great if you could make the components separate and optional.
    Good point, I'd have to ensure each component is optional.

    This idea would definitely be more difficult to implement than a timer, but I feel a sense of urgency is more effective and realistic than an arbitrary timer.
    Oh boy, that's one ambitious suggestion! I think something like that would be far beyond my scope, at least at the moment. But an alternate way to play the main story would be an interesting, if large undertaking.

    As for your views on the timer, I understand this mod won't be for everyone. It would certainly be aimed at the more “hardcore” audience who like a little punishment.

    1. I'm not sure this could be implemented easily (but then, I lost track of what is possible with all those shiny new features in the EE)
    2. this is actually pretty cool, since it's realistic, but I'd assume regeneration rate would be rather very slow
    3. you mean more disadvantages while being fatigued? I'd not be fond of that in combination with restricted resting, I think not healing fully and/or not being able to refresh spells is already quite a disadvantage.
    @jastey Could you give a brief (and simple) explanation of the difficultly of implementing the sleep timer? I'd assume it might be that there is no way to track the action of sleeping?

    And yes, regen would have to be very slow for balance.
    The way I'd see it playing out is the party returns from questing, spends some time in a town or city making the rounds, selling off gear, returning to quest givers and so on. And during that time everyone would heal a handful of hitpoints. Then when it's time to head out again, the party rests, heals as much as they can, then heads back out into the world.

    As for the fatigue overhaul, that's something I'd have to test to see if it would be needed at all. I'm still uncertain about that one.

    @Grammarsalad If you've your own mod in the works with similar mechanics, please feel free to take any of my ideas if they inspire you at all and run with them. It might be awhile before I can figure out IE modding, so you're more than welcome to take anything I've thrown up here if it's of use to you.
    Grammarsalad
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 2,669
    I'm not the right to ask about engine hardcodings and stuff - sleeping happens when you hit the "rest" button either in an outdoor area or in a tavern. I figure it's hardcoded, or GUI dependent, or something. I'd have no idea how to influence that, that's what I meant.
    Grammarsalad
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    Sirick wrote: »
    Some helpful advice so far!
    I would prefer not to change the regeneration mechanic, so if you implement it, it would be great if you could make the components separate and optional.
    Good point, I'd have to ensure each component is optional.

    Yeah, this is essential IMO. I wish I had adopted modularity as a guiding principle when I first stated modding. (which is closely related to encapsulation as described here).

    DavidW defines encapsulation as:

    Encapsulation: each component of the mod needs to be kept entirely separate from the other components. Nothing that happens in any component should have any effects on anything in another component (except through the effects it has on in-game files). In particular, variables set in one component should be forgotten as soon as the installer moves on to the next component.

    David is particularly concerned with variables, but it is also essential to be careful that a given component doesn't make use of a resource (i.e. a file) from a different or alternate subcomponent. That is, if you have these three components as your mod, you want to be sure that (e.g.) your fatigue revision doesn't assume that the natural healing is installed. Heh, at the same time, you need them to be compatible where that makes sense (heh, nothing is worse than when one of your own mods isn't compatible with itself!)

    Another aspect of modularity that I am talking about is variability in implementation, generally though the use of subcomponents. For example, here, I have a broad set of components--'performance fatigue'--where both rage effects and/or bard song/shaman dance cause the character to accumulate fatigue. I have a component where this concept can be applied to just the Bard, just the shaman, both the bard and shaman, just the berserker, just the barbarian, just the barbarian and berserker or everybody--the bard, shaman, barbarian and berserker.

    This also illustrates the notion of using fatigue as a resource. In a different components, I'll likely allow the barbarian and/or berserker to rage/enrage at will, and I will *Strongly* Suggest that the user also installs performance fatigue for each kit that gets this upgrade. (Though, I'm not going to tell anybody how to have fun--if they want an unstoppable killing machine, who am I to tell them they can't have that?)

    For players that do follow this advice, they will need to balance how much they use their rage ability against how often they want to rest. This likely will turn the barbarian and/or berserker into a kind of mage, where the player is tempted to rest more often than is reasonable, but this mechanic would interact interestingly with something like your component 1 (or the excellent suggestion given by @ElysianEchoes ). The extra management is not likely to be appealing to many (or most?) players, but there is a lot of room for alternate implementations (each combination can often be it's own implementation, as the possibly super-ragy, possibly fatigued barbi illustrates above). A mod with many different, in many instances mutually exclusive, options can be, in a sense, all things for all people (look at the tweak mods). It's just a matter of time and brain strain.

    I've been playing a lot--too much--battle brothers, but their fatigue system is pretty interesting. The game does not have a rest mechanic--rather, fatigue acts as a mechanic that imposes a sort of 'per encounter' limitation on what a given character can do. Each character has a particular fatigue score, which is reduced by the equipment they use. Each time they do something in combat, they accumulate fatigue and once they hit their limit, they can't act at all. Each round a brother recovers some % of their fatigue, and at the end of combat, the reserve is reset.

    Something like that could be implemented in BGEE, but it's less clear if such implementation would be desirable. I might do it just because I find modding to be relaxing and this would be an interesting challenge (and heck, it could be really fun--nobody would really know until they tried it). In any case, such a system could be partially and/or differently implemented in different subcomponents. You could have one component act almost exactly like BB, where each swing of your axe causes some fatigue--I'm pretty sure that would be doable. Of course, it would be better to impose some kind of penalty for being exhausted other than 'you can't do anything now--a penalty to attacks, AC and movement would probably be okay).

    Maybe another would combine daily fatigue with encounter fatigue in some way (or treats them as two separate, if related, subsystems--This would almost certainly require EEex, but that's okay). You could have a 'watered down' version where only special abilities cost fatigue and are unusable when you reach exhausted level (but are otherwise usable 'at will'--the capacity to use them more often per day can be simulated either via an 'increasing fatigue max capacity per level' like HP or by making specials use up less fatigue at higher levels (or both).

    There are almost certainly other possibilities. It's just a matter of getting the numbers right (which would be no small feat...)
    ...
    @Grammarsalad If you've your own mod in the works with similar mechanics, please feel free to take any of my ideas if they inspire you at all and run with them. It might be awhile before I can figure out IE modding, so you're more than welcome to take anything I've thrown up here if it's of use to you.

    Cool. Thanks. Ditto.

    Feel free to look though my mods and use my code where it helps. I don't need credit for anything I have done myself, but if I give someone else credit in the code, please do the same if you use that code.
    ElysianEchoesLudwig_IIGusindaStummvonBordwehr
  • SirickSirick Member Posts: 92
    Whelp, I gave it try, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to add a timer to limit resting!

    So, if anyone cares to take up the challenge, you're more than welcome!
  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 399
    There's always a way with the IE engine... Just sometimes there's not a good way. One way I could think of... You could change every area in the game to be a no rest area as default, you could then extend every area script to change it from a no sleep area to a sleep area, with globals and timers.

    I'm scouring the internet looking how to change the speed of Fatigue lol.
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