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Did the Enhanced Edition change how proficiency points work with dual classing?

BeagleBeagle Member Posts: 2
I've played vanilla Baldur's Gate for many years now and loved it, so I'm considering getting the EE. However, as I was planning my party and reading through some threads recently, I noticed a strange discrepancy. I see many instances of people using dual classing to gain additional proficiency points in a weapon they were already proficient in. For instance, https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/13007/is-shar-teel-nerfed-with-her-new-weapon-proficiencies mentions Shar-Teel reaching high mastery or even grandmastery in longswords by using the extra pips gained while dual classing.

Here's the thing. Under the vanilla mechanics as I understand them, a Shar-Teel starting from 1 pip in longswords would *never* be able to gain more than 3 pips total in longswords. She gains two additional pips by her max level as fighter, and several more if you dual her to Thief. But as a dualed Thief, any points put into longswords will *not* be added cumulatively when her Fighter levels reactivate. Moreover, once her Fighter levels reactivate, she does not have the option to put any further points into longswords either. In short, whatever weapon mastery she gains as a fighter before dual-classing, is what she will be capped at. The only way to make use of new proficiencies from dual-classing is to put them in weapons you didn't have already. (So if you put points in Bows as a Thief, she'd keep those when her Fighter levels reactivate, but not points in Longswords.)

This has been my understanding of how weapon proficiencies and dual classing interact for all of BG1 and BG2. Yet everything I'm reading from discussion of the EE indicates the contrary. So either a) I have missed something important about dual classing through all my many hours of playing BG1 and BG2 (quite possible!) or b) the Enhanced Edition changed these mechanics. Does anyone have a definitive answer? I'm quite curious, as dual-classing has always been one of the most interesting & fun parts of the Baldur's Gate games for me.

Thanks!

Comments

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,109
    The way dual-class proficiencies work in the games:

    At level 1 in your new class, and any future levelups before completing the dual, you add proficiencies as if you were the new class, modified by any ethos restrictions of the old class. A cleric-X dual can't put points into bladed weapons, and a kensai-X dual can't put points into missile weapons.
    Once you complete the dual, proficiencies are merged. In case of overlap, you get whichever had more; a fighter-cleric with four dots in sling as a fighter before dual-classing and one dot in slings after ends up with four dots in sling.
    Then, any new proficiencies gained are taken as if you were in the less restricted class, modified by any ethos restrictions. A fighter-X dual can continue to put points into a weapon, up to grandmastery. For example, Anomen in BG2 starts with two dots in maces, as a fighter 7-cleric 8. He can take his third dot at level 12, his fourth at level 16, and grandmaster maces at level 20.

    All of this was true in the original games.

    What changed in the EE, then? First, the proficiency system was standardized between the two games; both BGEE and BG2EE use the finer weapon categories present in BG2. The various companions in BGEE had their proficiencies adjusted to fit this new system.
    Second, there's a secondary cap on proficiencies for fighters and the like. You can't put your third dot into a weapon before you reach level 3, your fourth dot before you reach level 6, or your fifth dot before you reach level 9. As the 161K XP cap cuts fighters off before level 9, this would ordinarily prevent anyone from gaining grandmastery in a weapon in BGEE.

    But there's a loophole. The game doesn't check fighter level for that cap - it checks the class you're leveling in. A fighter dual-classed to thief at level 6 or earlier can reach level 9 as a thief in BGEE, and that makes grandmastery possible with the proficiency dot you invest when reaching level 9.
    But wait - thieves don't get a proficiency dot at level 9. They get one at level 8, but that won't get you to grandmastery. How do we trick the system? To trick the system, take multiple levelups at once. If this hypothetical fighter-thief goes from level 7 to level 9 in one step, they get that level 8 dot invested as a level 9 character, and can reach grandmastery with it.
    Shar-Teel adds an extra wrinkle. The EE version of her doesn't start specialized in anything, so she can only reach three dots (in long sword or dagger) at fighter level 6. In order to reach grandmastery, she needs to apply an extra dot to her chosen weapon. The level 4 thief dot is the only place to get that, which means she needs to go all the way from thief level 3 to thief level 7 in one step, applying the level 4 dot as a completed dual. Then again, go from thief level 7 to thief level 9 in one step. Your reward for this complicated scheme? 4x backstabs, 2 APR, and grandmastery in your choice of longsword or dagger.

    ThacoBellAgent_XJuliusBorisovConjurerDragon
  • BeagleBeagle Member Posts: 2
    edited April 26
    Thank you for the very detailed writeup, jmerry! Based on what you said, I believe there may have indeed been a change to the mechanics in the EE. Specifically, with regards to this part:
    Then, any new proficiencies gained are taken as if you were in the less restricted class, modified by any ethos restrictions. A fighter-X dual can continue to put points into a weapon, up to grandmastery.
    I just opened up vanilla BG1 to confirm this with a freshly rolled Fighter. I leveled them up to 6, bringing them to Large Swords ***. I dualled them to Thief and leveled them up to 3. Then I leveled them from 3 to 7, gaining a weapon pip and reactivating Fighter, but was unable to put the point in Large Swords. When I leveled from 7 to 8 and got another pip, I was also unable to put the point in Large Swords.

    I wonder whether this was a bug in vanilla BG1 that was fixed in BG2? If so, players using BGTutu to play BG1 would not have experienced it. I never used BGTutu, so I thought dual-classing always worked this way. In that case, I was actually mistaken about how it worked in BG2 - probably because in BG2 you would only really dual your MC, who would already have grandmastery by the time you dualed him. If I had ever bothered to dual Yoshimo, I might have discovered the discrepancy earlier.

  • razaraza Member Posts: 24
    edited September 22
    Hello. Does it completely fixed now? I mean for EE 2.5.17 version?

    I checked several times in different ways and wasn't able to achieve 5 points after dualing.

    So basically I created a warrior (w/o any kit) with two points in Quarter Staffs and two in Two-Handed Weapon style.
    1. Has reached 3 level, put 1 point into Quarter Staff (3 total), dualed into Thief (put 1 point in Small bows and 1 point in Darts), reached level 10 w/o rising thief's level in the middle - and nothing, I cant put free points in Quarter Staff
    2. Has reached 3 level, put 1 point into Quarter Staff (3 total), dualed into Thief (put 1 point in Small bows and 1 point in Darts), reached level 4 by thief to reactivate warrior's class and after that reached level 10 w/o rising thief's level in the middle - and nothing, I cant put free points in Quarter Staff
    3. Has reached 6 level, put all points into Quarter Staff (4 total), dualed into Thief (put 1 point in Small bows and 1 point in Darts), reached level 9 w/o rising thief's level in the middle - and nothing, I cant put free points in Quarter Staff
    4. Has reached 6 level, put all points into Quarter Staff (4 total), dualed into Thief (put 1 point in Small bows and 1 point in Darts), reached level 7 by thief to reactivate warrior's class and after that reached level 9 w/o rising thief's level in the middle - and nothing, I cant put free points in Quarter Staff

    Also, I did same experiments with a warrior dualed into druid - also nothing.

    Can someone check plz and confirm or plz tell me what I am doing wrong?

    Some references that I found:
    Dual-Class Grandmaster intend or Bug ?

    Can dual classed fighters still get grand mastery?

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,109
    Unless you have a mod that changes things, it's definitely working in EE version 2.5.

    svjaxcdvzhq8.jpg

    That's Shar-Teel leveling up from F6-T7 to F6-T9 and taking her grandmastery in my latest run.

  • razaraza Member Posts: 24
    edited September 22
    Hm! What it can be... I am using EEex (for spell menu), Dragon Spear UI++ and TweeksAnthology (but nothing that can change this behavior how I guess):
    • Separate Resist Fire/Cold Icon into Separate Icons (Angel)
    • Easy Spell Learning -> 100% Learn Spells
    • Increase Ammo Stack Size -> Unlimited Ammo Stacking
    • Give Every Class/Kit Four Weapon Slots
    • Start New Games with Party AI Turned Off

    For testing, I added exp by using debug windows (where you can get Special Bow) - can this affect?

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 728
    Well, let's back up a bit. All the behavior that's been discussed assumes unmodded. If you can, please test in an unmodded game as well - from what I've been reading, #3 and #4 should have worked.

    Since you're using mods, your WeiDU.log would be helpful (especially with Tweaks Anthology).

    JuliusBorisov
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