I don't think it's related to balance - it's not like it would improve single class mages combat-wise in any significant way if they could equip longswords. Rather it's like @Aosaw says, a result of how the engine works.
It is not a game engine issue. The engine could easily allow mages to use swords and would have been done that way if it is what was intended.
It is absolutely a translation of AD&D rules. The rules said mages could only use a limited number of weapons so the engine was built to prohibit them from using war hammers, maces, swords, etc.
I don't think it's related to balance - it's not like it would improve single class mages combat-wise in any significant way if they could equip longswords. Rather it's like @Aosaw says, a result of how the engine works.
It is not a game engine issue. The engine could easily allow mages to use swords and would have been done that way if it is what was intended.
It is absolutely a translation of AD&D rules. The rules said mages could only use a limited number of weapons so the engine was built to prohibit them from using war hammers, maces, swords, etc.
In PnP a mage can't get proficient with a sword, but they (or basically any other humanoid for that matter) can still physically pick up a sword and try to attack with it, even if they may not end up with a very good chance to hit - but as was pointed out earlier, inside the game you can't equip a weapon at all if you can't put at least one proficiency pip into it, which means that the engine doesn't separate between "untrained but with the potential to learn" and "untrained and physically incapable of lifting/swinging the weapon in question", which is something that a DM could do.
Though maybe I should have phrased it differently, as the engine can indeed allow it if you change the restrictions.
Ok, I heard the dual/multi-class option so many times now. And I would agree, but what about sorcerers and mage kits? We already discussed it in another topic, whare most people supported the idea (monk/barabarian/sorcerer multi/dual option). It might be a good compromise. How do you feel about that? Would that be a good enough option for all of us? I would personally strongly consider starting a fighter/sorcerer, although the idea just came to my mind last night after reading your posts. And it would even make more sense I think, since, as I've said, sorcerers are natural spell casters, so they have more free time to spend on learning combat moves than mages.
But we still haven't gotten much closer to discover why they can't equip those damn swords It wouldn't really upset the game balance, since they are not really the melee combatant type anyway, the engine doesn't restrict it, and I still think it's not realistic. The thing is that it's like that in AD&D, but even there they can at least equip them (it's still better to have a weapon you have never even heard of before in your hand in a fight than to go into the fray bare handed...). (((Is fray a good word here? I hope so... )
I don't think it's related to balance - it's not like it would improve single class mages combat-wise in any significant way if they could equip longswords. Rather it's like @Aosaw says, a result of how the engine works.
It actually *is* related to balance among other things. Mages use spells which makes them *very* powerful late-game. Arguably the most powerful class. They should not be able to wield weapons that do a D8 or more damage on top of this, and why would they? Yes alright Gandalf used a sword but really, a mage doesn't have time to train in such weapons. They are busy with their arcane pursuits. It doesn't take much to pick up the basics the OP says, but why would a mage care to? They want to be the best mage they can be, not a mage and a warrior, if they did they'd dual or multi class.
A dagger, a staff? - Now that's a last line of defense. The only way a mage should use a sword, apart from them also being a fighter-class, is if they hire a lackey to wield it for them.
Those spells will be almost as powerful with a dagger at that point, simply because of the amount of damage being thrown around by everyone.
Bear in mind, I'm not saying that the game should be changed to allow anyone to wield any weapon. I'm just saying, it wouldn't be as unbalanced as it seems.
(edit) What makes it unbalanced is when the wielder has an 18/00 Strength, a fighter's THAC0, and several proficiency points invested in it. A grandmastered long sword is much more deadly than an untrained one.
@HaHaCharade Mages could wield monk fists doing 1d20 damage, they'd still have one attack per round and hardly be able to hit anything. And the later in the game it gets, the more useless their non-spell attacks become in comparison to the other ways they can dish out damage. Doing 1d6 vs 1d8 damage per landed melee attack at that point for all measurable intents and purposes has zero effect on game balance.
Seriously wth is with the Gandalf comparison? This is D&D not LOTR. Also Gandalf was on middle earth for 2000 years, and still he couldn't stop time, conjure energy blades or dark planetars, nor wipe out every goblin / troll in Moria with a cloudkill spell.
Compared to D&D casters, Gandalf was a weak gimp. You should be comparing your caster in this game to Elminster
Seriously wth is with the Gandalf comparison? This is D&D not LOTR. Also Gandalf was on middle earth for 2000 years, and still he couldn't stop time, conjure energy blades or dark planetars, nor wipe out every goblin / troll in Moria with a cloudkill spell.
Compared to D&D casters, Gandalf was a weak gimp. You should be comparing your caster in this game to Elminster
Gandalf was the direct influence of Elminster. He's a mage that uses a sword. Figured it was worth bringing up. Besides, after 2,000 years he's probably dual-classed.
Either mages suck so much at melee that it doesn't throw off balance and it is a total non-issue because they suck so much at melee that no one should be worried about what melee weapon their mage is going to use in combat or it is a balance issue. Either way, it doesn't point to allowing mages to pick up and use any weapon they want only with the normal non-proficient penalty unless you are going to start using all the PnP rules about being able to sneak in plate mail as a F/T (massive penalty but can be done) or able to cast in armor as a F/M (again penalty but not 100% fail), etc. etc.
From my perspective, it is not a balance issue for BG2 but it is for BG1. Either way, my vote is "no."
Elvish wizards should be able to use longswords (and longbows?), they should have the ability to use slings removed...
Human wizards should be able to use crossbows and have sling option removed...
Gnome wizards should be able to use slings still...
Now, my reasoning is... Slings are ruddy difficult to use. I always imagined them to be a little like an elastic band that you put between two sticks and pull back like an acme catapult for naughty kids... But no, you place a stone in a piece of cloth with two straps coming out of either side, you grab too bits of the rope, spin it around, centrifugal force keeps the stone in its place, you then let go of one strap at the perfect time, to allow the stone to fly fowards... Hopefully hitting your target... The romans had contingents of slingers, they even invented the lead bullet around the time of Marc Anthony and Cleopatra... But they were to few proffesional slingers to be used well. In short, nobody in the pre-gunpowder age spent profiecency points in slings...
Sooo. Replace the sling with longswords for elf mages. Elves lose a ranged weapon, but gain a more powerful melee weapon. Mages should always stay away from fights me thinks... but okay. Not to unbalancing I think. Good roleplaying element here as Elves are taught how to use longsword and longbows... But getting both would be unbalancing.
Humans swap slings for crossbow. They get a more heavy damage weapon, but it is easier to train people to use a crossbow than a sling, plus rate of fire is decreased. I can believe a human mage would love to tinker with the mechanics of a crossbow as well...
Gnomes keep slings... Why because they have to be illusionists if multiclassed and that gets 'em an extra spell already... Don't want mad Gnome mages running around with huge swords do we? No maybe we do... Lets give them Nun-chukkas and watch the chaos... Mad Gnashing Gnome Nun-chukka Wielding Mages should be available in BG3!
To be clear, the non-proficiency penalty for mages is literally triple that of the non-proficiency penalty for warriors (-3 versus -1). Which means that an elf mage, even with the racial bonus, is taking a -2 penalty to THAC0 with every attack.
This all points to swords not being a viable option in the early game if you're a mage, if only because your THAC0 is too low to make good use of it. In the later game, it's not game-breaking because the major variable is your level of mastery, which for a mage will always be "none".
Yeah, if they can pick it up, they should be able to wield it. Like Minsc would say, swords for everyone! ...Even the wizards. ...Especially the wizards. ...All the wizards get swords. All of them. ...Seriously why let Xan have all the fun.
I always wanted to get my wizard a moonblade... He had to have an imaginery Moomintroll Blade... Look here...
Moominblade
On the legendary Isle of Evermeet, many magical weapons are forged. Moonblades are one of them, made with fell magic of the highest art and the elven swordsmiths greatest artifice. But even the greatest Wizards and Smiths need time to learn and hone their skills. Moon Minature Blades, or Moominblades as they became known vary wildly in power depending on the level of expertise of the creators. Many have a very low level of sentience that wishes to harm it's wielders enemies, but can only show this by vibrating gently when enemies are nearby. They also usually harness an element of power, they have sometimes been called Moomin Troll blades as the elemental power within them is very useful in despatching these dreaded monsters. This blade is richly decorated with Seal motifs, it appears to have been infused with the element of ice.
Has anyone tried to see if importing a rogue with Use Any Item into BG1 would let them use the Moonblade? That'd be awesome.
. -c . I do not think Xan would be too happy about that.
He's never happy about anything. Man could depress a rainbow.
Rainbows have a lot to be sad about. I mean, come on. The word "rain" is right there in the name. Just because they put a "bow" on it, it's supposed to be all happy and pretty? That's messed up.
Comments
It is absolutely a translation of AD&D rules. The rules said mages could only use a limited number of weapons so the engine was built to prohibit them from using war hammers, maces, swords, etc.
If you want to use sword and arcane magic, then you can multiclass, dual class (a level 1 figther to mage for example) or choose a bard.
If these are not enough for you, use a mod.
Though maybe I should have phrased it differently, as the engine can indeed allow it if you change the restrictions.
I would personally strongly consider starting a fighter/sorcerer, although the idea just came to my mind last night after reading your posts. And it would even make more sense I think, since, as I've said, sorcerers are natural spell casters, so they have more free time to spend on learning combat moves than mages.
But we still haven't gotten much closer to discover why they can't equip those damn swords
A dagger, a staff? - Now that's a last line of defense. The only way a mage should use a sword, apart from them also being a fighter-class, is if they hire a lackey to wield it for them.
Bear in mind, I'm not saying that the game should be changed to allow anyone to wield any weapon. I'm just saying, it wouldn't be as unbalanced as it seems.
(edit) What makes it unbalanced is when the wielder has an 18/00 Strength, a fighter's THAC0, and several proficiency points invested in it. A grandmastered long sword is much more deadly than an untrained one.
Compared to D&D casters, Gandalf was a weak gimp. You should be comparing your caster in this game to Elminster
From my perspective, it is not a balance issue for BG2 but it is for BG1. Either way, my vote is "no."
Sooo. Replace the sling with longswords for elf mages. Elves lose a ranged weapon, but gain a more powerful melee weapon. Mages should always stay away from fights me thinks... but okay. Not to unbalancing I think. Good roleplaying element here as Elves are taught how to use longsword and longbows... But getting both would be unbalancing.
Humans swap slings for crossbow. They get a more heavy damage weapon, but it is easier to train people to use a crossbow than a sling, plus rate of fire is decreased. I can believe a human mage would love to tinker with the mechanics of a crossbow as well...
Gnomes keep slings... Why because they have to be illusionists if multiclassed and that gets 'em an extra spell already... Don't want mad Gnome mages running around with huge swords do we? No maybe we do... Lets give them Nun-chukkas and watch the chaos... Mad Gnashing Gnome Nun-chukka Wielding Mages should be available in BG3!
This all points to swords not being a viable option in the early game if you're a mage, if only because your THAC0 is too low to make good use of it. In the later game, it's not game-breaking because the major variable is your level of mastery, which for a mage will always be "none".
...Even the wizards.
...Especially the wizards.
...All the wizards get swords. All of them.
...Seriously why let Xan have all the fun.
Look here...
Moominblade
On the legendary Isle of Evermeet, many magical weapons are forged. Moonblades are one of them, made with fell magic of the highest art and the elven swordsmiths greatest artifice. But even the greatest Wizards and Smiths need time to learn and hone their skills. Moon Minature Blades, or Moominblades as they became known vary wildly in power depending on the level of expertise of the creators. Many have a very low level of sentience that wishes to harm it's wielders enemies, but can only show this by vibrating gently when enemies are nearby. They also usually harness an element of power, they have sometimes been called Moomin Troll blades as the elemental power within them is very useful in despatching these dreaded monsters. This blade is richly decorated with Seal motifs, it appears to have been infused with the element of ice.
Dagger +1 +2D6 cold damage on hit.
Only usable by mage.
Many more weapons can be found at...
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/4060/lets-talk-weapons-as-this-is-an-enhanced-edition-we-need-enhanced-weapons
It looks like we may be able to get a mod and put some of the stuff into the BG game
I do not think Xan would be too happy about that.
. -c .