Solution: don't look to BioWare games for interesting moral choices, or any competent writing at all for that matter.
Based on the quality of content seen so far in this remake, I desperately hope Beamdog/Overhaul will have nothing to do with the production of Baldur's Gate III (other than technical). Though to be honest, anything other than "chaotic stupid evil" is probably going to be impossible in what is otherwise a happy-go-lucky fantasy LARP.
Funny you say that, because Bioware games are the top notch of western crpg I'm curious what games you consider better for interesting moral choices.
Or maybe, party based crpg is not for interesting moral choices? But then, is it Bioware's (and Overhaul's) fault, probably the genre - where you control a team which is supposed to work together for a greater good - is just not cut out for this?
@exHammer, your start post can't be applied to mass effect dude, there's no evil or good there, just reckless actions and moralist actions. Sheppard, be him renegade or paragon, isn't in any form evil, he aims to save the galaxy and people in the 3 games, the means can dissonate but the objective is very clear, no one sacrifice himself/herself in suicide missions where death is almost certain for the sake of others, worse yet, in an abstract concept of others with no gain.
But i can understand your mistake on the concept, in Neverwinter Night's 2, Amon Jerro is Chaotic Evil where he should be neutral aligned in fact, even devs can make mistakes sometimes.
I never played Kotor, but by the description that many here gave i don't see any advantage in evil there.
Baldur's Gate has potential to explore thousand levels of evil, the game isn't a lost cause to evil, the problem was that the original game just ignored evil content. It can be fixed and i hope BG EE to fix it. You're trying to approach the subject of evil/good here in a different fashion, while i agree (and probally most of this forum agree) that evil content is extremly poor in Baldur's Gate, i disagree with your kind of approach of the subject.
That is not the point, and you speak like you never played other RPG games. Other PC games have what BG series has not, it wouldn't require much to implement aforementioned things, it's only the old philosophy that is in the way.
Actually, I'm not much a CRPG gamer. I've only played BG/SoA/ToB, IWD, and TOEE--all D&D based. Call me a D&D purist, traditionalist, conservative, fanatic, fascist or whatever. The more graphic visualizations are used, the less imagination you are required to invest in the game. I'd rather have a deeper level of storytelling and role playing in the game than eye candy or juvenile PvP bullshit. Isn't that WoW, Final Fantasy, and Diablo are for?
You speak like you've never played D&D outside of computer games.
@exHammer, your start post can't be applied to mass effect dude, there's no evil or good there, just reckless actions and moralist actions. Sheppard, be him renegade or paragon, isn't in any form evil, he aims to save the galaxy and people in the 3 games, the means can dissonate but the objective is very clear, no one sacrifice himself/herself in suicide missions where death is almost certain for the sake of others, worse yet, in an abstract concept of others with no gain.
But i can understand your mistake on the concept, in Neverwinter Night's 2, Amon Jerro is Chaotic Evil where he should be neutral aligned in fact, even devs can make mistakes sometimes.
I never played Kotor, but by the description that many here gave i don't see any advantage in evil there.
Baldur's Gate has potential to explore thousand levels of evil, the game isn't a lost cause to evil, the problem was that the original game just ignored evil content. It can be fixed and i hope BG EE to fix it. You're trying to approach the subject of evil/good here in a different fashion, while i agree (and probally most of this forum agree) that evil content is extremly poor in Baldur's Gate, i disagree with your kind of approach of the subject.
LOL? Are you drunk? Never talked about IWD 2, never talked about KotOR.
And surely you played ME series drunk if you don't connect any of the choises as good or evil.
That is not the point, and you speak like you never played other RPG games. Other PC games have what BG series has not, it wouldn't require much to implement aforementioned things, it's only the old philosophy that is in the way.
Actually, I'm not much a CRPG gamer. I've only played BG/SoA/ToB, IWD, and TOEE--all D&D based. Call me a D&D purist, traditionalist, conservative, fanatic, fascist or whatever. The more graphic visualizations are used, the less imagination you are required to invest in the game. I'd rather have a deeper level of storytelling and role playing in the game than eye candy or juvenile PvP bullshit. Isn't that WoW, Final Fantasy, and Diablo are for?
You speak like you've never played D&D outside of computer games.
So yes, I'm right in all assumptions, but you are wrong, I have indeed played PnP DnD.
Funny how you can't quote the rest of that line or respond to any of my other points... I'd also like to point out, if I was as much a "purist" as you make me out to be, would I be here, ready to support the enhanced edition, which changes the game in more than a few ways (new characters, new quests, pre-romances with the new characters, not to mention new adventure Y and the Black Pits, just to name a few)? I would not.
But those aren't the only changes I want for the game. I want more male characters romanceable by females. I want gay romances for male and female characters- more than just a token one. I want a romance with a male character that my character doesn't have to act as a babysitter or psychologist for. I want more adventures and sidequests. I'd like there to be more kits based on race and class from the 2e books, like the Elven Bladesinger Fighter-Magicuser. I'd like to see more Ed Greenwood created magic items in the game. In the second game, I'd love to be able to romance Solaufein, the good Drow elf character. I want to have Composite Long and Short Bows which add your strength bonus to the damage of arrows fired (already floated this one to the Devs here).
Last night, when I was looking through my old Dragon Magazines, I found an interesting "Bazaar of the Bizarre" article by Ed. Included were some interesting magical daggers, like the invisible dagger. It doesn't turn its wielder invisible- the entire thing is invisible, always. Blades of Banishing dispel wards just by touching them. Oops, was that your stoneskin, wizard? My bad... (NOT). Spider Fang dagger entangles the target in webs when it hits, and enables its wielder not to be trapped by webs. Stuff like that.
An issue I've often run into in discussions like this is how to define evil, e.g:
- Does "being evil" kick in at a certain degree of egoism and self serving, or does it have to extend to gaining direct pleasure from harm and misfortune befalling others? And is it sweeter still if those others are innocent and defenseless? - Are humans capable of the kind of evil found in D&D demons, which for most intents and purposes seems to be about as evil as you can get? - Can you be truly evil and still be able to develop feelings such as love/friendship/caring? Or is there only the concept of mutual gain?
Stuff like that easily turns into a philosophical debate, yet without a clear idea of the sort of evil in question, it gets tricky to plan plotlines involving it or portray it in a 'believable' manner.
@HexHammer What exactly is your grievance with BG? It's not like the other games you like to play?
Btw, butchering Gygax's name on a forum for a D&D-based game = huge faux pas.
I believe that my views has been very clearly expressed in previous posts in this thread, I must ask myself if you have read them or just doesn't understand them.
@HexHammer So, far you've failed to provide a coherent explanation on why D&D is based on "horribly outdated rules." From your short replies and rebuttals (which have been selective--you haven't addressed everyone's replies), it sounds like you just want to be "eeeeevil" and wallow in how much of a douchebag you can be in an video game fantasy world.
@exHammer, your start post can't be applied to mass effect dude, there's no evil or good there, just reckless actions and moralist actions. Sheppard, be him renegade or paragon, isn't in any form evil, he aims to save the galaxy and people in the 3 games, the means can dissonate but the objective is very clear, no one sacrifice himself/herself in suicide missions where death is almost certain for the sake of others, worse yet, in an abstract concept of others with no gain.
But i can understand your mistake on the concept, in Neverwinter Night's 2, Amon Jerro is Chaotic Evil where he should be neutral aligned in fact, even devs can make mistakes sometimes.
I never played Kotor, but by the description that many here gave i don't see any advantage in evil there.
Baldur's Gate has potential to explore thousand levels of evil, the game isn't a lost cause to evil, the problem was that the original game just ignored evil content. It can be fixed and i hope BG EE to fix it. You're trying to approach the subject of evil/good here in a different fashion, while i agree (and probally most of this forum agree) that evil content is extremly poor in Baldur's Gate, i disagree with your kind of approach of the subject.
LOL? Are you drunk? Never talked about IWD 2, never talked about KotOR.
And surely you played ME series drunk if you don't connect any of the choises as good or evil.
What is wrong with you?
I must have missed the part when Kamuizin said anything about Icewind Dale 2. You sure you aren't the drunk one here?
The Baldur's Gate series has never been about being a cold blooded bounty hunter, because frankly throughout the series of games even if you are playing an evil character you have a personal vendetta towards Sarevok and Irenicus, and an interest in gaining the level of powers people such as Sarevok and Irenicus have. I mean there is a lot that could be done for making more evil choices in the game, but I kind of feel like you are entirely missing the point of the series.
I played up to level 25 as the bounty hunter (42 as the Jedi Sage) in ToR, and I can only remember a few times where decisions I had previously made on another world may have come back to haunt me in the next one to visit. But basically the universe is very forgiving of the actions you take in that game, especially since most quests can be done by any class in the same fleet. So frankly using it as an example of how Baldur's Gate should approach moral choices is ridiculous, because the decisions you make in that game don't generally have an impact on how you are treated in other worlds. Whereas as an evil character if I were to say cut down a begger in Baldur's Gate and get a reputation of 4 from it, no matter where I went guards would probably treat me as being hostile. You are a lot more responsible for your actions in the Baldur's Gate series, which makes more sense than how morality is approached in The Old Republic.
So in effect you are limited as a character in how much "graphical display" there can be done for your moral choices. If you were to for instance behead a civilian your reputation would drop and you could very well have the guards after you.
The weapon of the ignorant is the flames @HexHammer, you lack of reason just shine a bit more when you resort to agressive words to refute what i say, shame on you.
If you can only see the renegade/paragon as good or evil, i can only pity your lack of inteligence to see the bigger picture, but just forget this point then, there's no need to push a matter that you clearly can't fathom.
The 3° and 4° paragraph wheren't entitled for you by the way, i just gave my personal opinion related to other posts previously made by other people.
Ps: I never talked about IWD2 in this thread also, but i believe you're making reference to Neverwinter nights 2. I gave an example of an NPC of Neverwinter Night's 2, Amon Jerro, he has an reckless behavior and was stated as chaotic evil when he's obvious Neutral and not evil, in that game the devs mistaken Amon Jerro's reputation with his alignment.
The Baldur's Gate series has never been about being a cold blooded bounty hunter, because frankly throughout the series of games even if you are playing an evil character you have a personal vendetta towards Sarevok and Irenicus, and an interest in gaining the level of powers people such as Sarevok and Irenicus have. I mean there is a lot that could be done for making more evil choices in the game, but I kind of feel like you are entirely missing the point of the series.
That's strange, you speak with such certainty, have you insider knowledge or are you just grasping things out of thin air? Forgive me if I belive the latter. Back then there wasn't a trend to make such elaborate moral choises, the only thing would be reputation, even then it was illogical how people with different alligenment would react. Evil people would be disgruntled with good reputation, when evil people irl usually see themselves as good or least wants a good reputation as possible.
@HexHammer So, far you've failed to provide a coherent explanation on why D&D is based on "horribly outdated rules." From your short replies and rebuttals (which have been selective--you haven't addressed everyone's replies), it sounds like you just want to be "eeeeevil" and wallow in how much of a douchebag you can be in an video game fantasy world.
Please show where I fail to provide sufficient explenation.
If a person will make a total babble post, they usually doesn't comprehend the answer, why I don't waste time answering, sorry to be an arrogant prick.
@decado, my bad, Neutral Evil is accurate. However, neutral Evil are specific selfish, and Ammon Jerro is sacrificing everything for a cause, i don't see that as an neutral evil behavior neither evil. To me Ammon Jerro is more Neutral than anything else (i will not argue in which neutral alignment he fits better, lawful/true/chaotic but he fit those a lot better).
But that's only my opinion on an example that i raised to argue about mass effect paragon/renegade paths.
@HexHammer Unless you're intent is to troll us all with this thread, why wouldn't you want to address people's comments with some sort of constructive answer? You started the thread, afterall.
And I'd say you're being more of a pretentious douche than an arrogant prick. Your mistake is in assuming that we just can't possibly comprehend your brilliance. Grow up, big shot.
@Mortianna, i believe trolls would be offended by the comparison, to troll you normally need to be inteligent, the guy is just too stupid to evaluate another person opinion, he's already convinced of what he think that is good and evil (the very name of the thread induces this) and apparently he will just flame anyone that disagree with him.
@Hexhammer. No I don't have insider knowledge, however I actually read and listened to the text in the game. If you are an evil character as part of the first dream sequence in Baldur's Gate 1 you say that you want the power that Sarevok has. Though I will admit in the Irenicus case you have an option to say it both in and out of dream sequences, so my comment really has more to do with the first game. Ohh and "back then" there were plenty of games of games that involve you making serious moral choices. Its not a new trend. Arcanum of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Fallout 1 and 2, are just a few examples from the same period as Baldur's Gate.
To be honest part of your response to me I can't fully comprehend just because the english is very poor.
@Hexhammer. No I don't have insider knowledge, however I actually read and listened to the text in the game. If you are an evil character as part of the first dream sequence in Baldur's Gate 1 you say that you want the power that Sarevok has. Though I will admit in the Irenicus case you have an option to say it both in and out of dream sequences, so my comment really has more to do with the first game. Ohh and "back then" there were plenty of games of games that involve you making serious moral choices. Its not a new trend. Arcanum of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Fallout 1 and 2, are just a few examples from the same period as Baldur's Gate.
To be honest part of your response to me I can't fully comprehend just because the english is very poor.
So, you jump to conclusons even with the knowledge that other games had moral choises, how can you rule out that the devs wasn't too lazy to implement moral choises? That makes no sense.
If my english is so poor that you can't comprehend it, please show me and I will carefully explain.
@Mortianna, i believe trolls would be offended by the comparison, to troll you normally need to be inteligent, the guy is just too stupid to evaluate another person opinion, he's already convinced of what he think that is good and evil (the very name of the thread induces this) and apparently he will just flame anyone that disagree with him.
Thanks for confirming that you indeed are a troll, flaming and acting rude.
@HexHammer Unless you're intent is to troll us all with this thread, why wouldn't you want to address people's comments with some sort of constructive answer? You started the thread, afterall.
And I'd say you're being more of a pretentious douche than an arrogant prick. Your mistake is in assuming that we just can't possibly comprehend your brilliance. Grow up, big shot.
@HexHammer My problems with comprehending what you were trying to say in your response to me has to do specifically with "...the only thing would be reputation, even then it was illogical how people with different alligenment would react. Evil people would be disgruntled with good reputation, when evil people irl usually see themselves as good or least wants a good reputation as possible."
I'm only barely seeing how this is in any way relevant to what I wrote. More to the point however even if you want to knit pick at what I wrote you yourself still have not laid out specific areas in the game where you believe the player character should have to make these moral choices. Heck, you haven't even provided ideas beyond mentioning beheadings. Which is why...
@Tanthalas. Its pretty clear this thread is going nowhere and does not not make a serious, detailed, case for changes to be made to the game. Its not written up in a manner that a developer looking at it could take something from it in order to change the Baldur's Gate to the OP's liking. Despite having lots of opportunity to do so the OP really has not elaborated on specific instances in Baldur's Gate where changes need to be made. So please close this. Two pages in the thread has gone nowhere, and I don't see that changing.
Comments
Based on the quality of content seen so far in this remake, I desperately hope Beamdog/Overhaul will have nothing to do with the production of Baldur's Gate III (other than technical). Though to be honest, anything other than "chaotic stupid evil" is probably going to be impossible in what is otherwise a happy-go-lucky fantasy LARP.
I'm curious what games you consider better for interesting moral choices.
Or maybe, party based crpg is not for interesting moral choices?
But then, is it Bioware's (and Overhaul's) fault, probably the genre - where you control a team which is supposed to work together for a greater good - is just not cut out for this?
But i can understand your mistake on the concept, in Neverwinter Night's 2, Amon Jerro is Chaotic Evil where he should be neutral aligned in fact, even devs can make mistakes sometimes.
I never played Kotor, but by the description that many here gave i don't see any advantage in evil there.
Baldur's Gate has potential to explore thousand levels of evil, the game isn't a lost cause to evil, the problem was that the original game just ignored evil content. It can be fixed and i hope BG EE to fix it. You're trying to approach the subject of evil/good here in a different fashion, while i agree (and probally most of this forum agree) that evil content is extremly poor in Baldur's Gate, i disagree with your kind of approach of the subject.
You speak like you've never played D&D outside of computer games.
And surely you played ME series drunk if you don't connect any of the choises as good or evil.
What is wrong with you?
But those aren't the only changes I want for the game. I want more male characters romanceable by females. I want gay romances for male and female characters- more than just a token one. I want a romance with a male character that my character doesn't have to act as a babysitter or psychologist for. I want more adventures and sidequests. I'd like there to be more kits based on race and class from the 2e books, like the Elven Bladesinger Fighter-Magicuser. I'd like to see more Ed Greenwood created magic items in the game. In the second game, I'd love to be able to romance Solaufein, the good Drow elf character. I want to have Composite Long and Short Bows which add your strength bonus to the damage of arrows fired (already floated this one to the Devs here).
Last night, when I was looking through my old Dragon Magazines, I found an interesting "Bazaar of the Bizarre" article by Ed. Included were some interesting magical daggers, like the invisible dagger. It doesn't turn its wielder invisible- the entire thing is invisible, always. Blades of Banishing dispel wards just by touching them. Oops, was that your stoneskin, wizard? My bad... (NOT). Spider Fang dagger entangles the target in webs when it hits, and enables its wielder not to be trapped by webs. Stuff like that.
Btw, butchering Gygax's name on a forum for a D&D-based game = huge faux pas.
- Does "being evil" kick in at a certain degree of egoism and self serving, or does it have to extend to gaining direct pleasure from harm and misfortune befalling others? And is it sweeter still if those others are innocent and defenseless?
- Are humans capable of the kind of evil found in D&D demons, which for most intents and purposes seems to be about as evil as you can get?
- Can you be truly evil and still be able to develop feelings such as love/friendship/caring? Or is there only the concept of mutual gain?
Stuff like that easily turns into a philosophical debate, yet without a clear idea of the sort of evil in question, it gets tricky to plan plotlines involving it or portray it in a 'believable' manner.
The Baldur's Gate series has never been about being a cold blooded bounty hunter, because frankly throughout the series of games even if you are playing an evil character you have a personal vendetta towards Sarevok and Irenicus, and an interest in gaining the level of powers people such as Sarevok and Irenicus have. I mean there is a lot that could be done for making more evil choices in the game, but I kind of feel like you are entirely missing the point of the series.
I played up to level 25 as the bounty hunter (42 as the Jedi Sage) in ToR, and I can only remember a few times where decisions I had previously made on another world may have come back to haunt me in the next one to visit. But basically the universe is very forgiving of the actions you take in that game, especially since most quests can be done by any class in the same fleet. So frankly using it as an example of how Baldur's Gate should approach moral choices is ridiculous, because the decisions you make in that game don't generally have an impact on how you are treated in other worlds. Whereas as an evil character if I were to say cut down a begger in Baldur's Gate and get a reputation of 4 from it, no matter where I went guards would probably treat me as being hostile. You are a lot more responsible for your actions in the Baldur's Gate series, which makes more sense than how morality is approached in The Old Republic.
So in effect you are limited as a character in how much "graphical display" there can be done for your moral choices. If you were to for instance behead a civilian your reputation would drop and you could very well have the guards after you.
If you can only see the renegade/paragon as good or evil, i can only pity your lack of inteligence to see the bigger picture, but just forget this point then, there's no need to push a matter that you clearly can't fathom.
The 3° and 4° paragraph wheren't entitled for you by the way, i just gave my personal opinion related to other posts previously made by other people.
Ps: I never talked about IWD2 in this thread also, but i believe you're making reference to Neverwinter nights 2. I gave an example of an NPC of Neverwinter Night's 2, Amon Jerro, he has an reckless behavior and was stated as chaotic evil when he's obvious Neutral and not evil, in that game the devs mistaken Amon Jerro's reputation with his alignment.
*cough* Ammon Jerro is Neutral Evil, which fits pretty well IMO...
Evil people would be disgruntled with good reputation, when evil people irl usually see themselves as good or least wants a good reputation as possible.
If a person will make a total babble post, they usually doesn't comprehend the answer, why I don't waste time answering, sorry to be an arrogant prick.
But that's only my opinion on an example that i raised to argue about mass effect paragon/renegade paths.
And I'd say you're being more of a pretentious douche than an arrogant prick. Your mistake is in assuming that we just can't possibly comprehend your brilliance. Grow up, big shot.
To be honest part of your response to me I can't fully comprehend just because the english is very poor.
And the whole "evil means evil, good means good" doesn't explain anything. It's tautological reasoning. It's the same as saying x = x , y = y.
If my english is so poor that you can't comprehend it, please show me and I will carefully explain.
Who's the troll? You!
I'm only barely seeing how this is in any way relevant to what I wrote. More to the point however even if you want to knit pick at what I wrote you yourself still have not laid out specific areas in the game where you believe the player character should have to make these moral choices. Heck, you haven't even provided ideas beyond mentioning beheadings. Which is why...
@Tanthalas. Its pretty clear this thread is going nowhere and does not not make a serious, detailed, case for changes to be made to the game. Its not written up in a manner that a developer looking at it could take something from it in order to change the Baldur's Gate to the OP's liking. Despite having lots of opportunity to do so the OP really has not elaborated on specific instances in Baldur's Gate where changes need to be made. So please close this. Two pages in the thread has gone nowhere, and I don't see that changing.