Backstab and weaponry
FredN
Member Posts: 596
.....I would dearly like to know who decided which weapons could be used to backstab, and what the rationale was. I know that the criterion is whether or not a pure thief can use the weapon. But who deicded that thieves could use quarterstaves, and not bastard swords? Quarterstaves ran anywhere from 6 to 9 feet in length. The average length of a bastard sword blade is around 40 inches. Manipulating a sword like that should be far easier than using whacking great stick.
.....Secondly, backstabs have to be done from hiding. (Yes invisibility also works, but I am talking about the basic mechanics here). I can imagine someone hiding behind a bush or tree while carrying a bastard sword, but I can't see someone hiding very effectively with a ginormous 8 foot staff in their hands.
.....Secondly, backstabs have to be done from hiding. (Yes invisibility also works, but I am talking about the basic mechanics here). I can imagine someone hiding behind a bush or tree while carrying a bastard sword, but I can't see someone hiding very effectively with a ginormous 8 foot staff in their hands.
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But think the idea was weapons that can be concealed or disguised. Quarter Staff is actually easy, it’s a common accessory as a walking stick and may be carried by a range of people from the elderly, to shepherds, to any wizard. It also may not be policed as a “weapon” in areas that have weapon restrictions.
By comparison, a Bastard Sword is a large, heavy, *expensive* weapon. It will stand out as a *weapon* in any setting. It’s like the difference between a walking stick and a Glock.
I think the hardest weapon to justify along those lines is a short bow. But then, I often use the euphemisms “scout” or “light fighter” for thieves. Especially good-aligned thieves may find work with a local military or private security force. So the short bow may be the most visible tool of the “legitimate” aspects of their trade.
assume a sneak attack may also be more of a surprise attack or focus on vulnerable
body parts - which may happen from hidden position but could also be from speed,
e. g. if you run at someone from behind with such speed that you'd have an advantage
hitting some areas, even without being hidden and/or sneaking up. Lightning strikes.
(Haste yielding two attacks per round does not really work here IMO since the THACO
doesn't change here. Improved invisible yielding +4 AC makes a bit more sense, but
the DnD system is not really great in general.)
The DnD model in general isn't great and BG as computer game made a few simplifications
and changes to the core rules in addition to that.
I think the "classic" backstab could be done only with dagger/knife and aim at, e. g.
hitting the throat/neck or upper part of the spine or perhaps the liver/kidneys. I
am not sure whether armour factored into it at all; usually DnD uses the AC value
as the simplification, which I think is not good. After all, a complete plate armour
should simply mean that a regular dagger can not really harm you at all whatsoever.
One could reason at the joint area, but that means only a very limited target. In
theory DnD does not even consider that a mortal wound should not be producable
if you only are able to hurt the toe or pinkie finger. DnD just uses so many simplified
assumptions.
There were other RPGs with a better, more realistic model. DSA for instance used
at one point a model where wounds were kept track of, e. g. you fought worse if
your torso was already covered with tons of wounds. The problem was that it
was a lot of work to keep track of and that created a problem for the players.
Plus, players cheat a lot so the DM has to control everything all the times, which
distracts from storytelling. It's all a trade-off.
> I can imagine someone hiding behind a bush or tree while carrying a bastard sword, but I can't see someone hiding very effectively with a ginormous 8 foot staff in their hands.
Well, this can be handled by penalties against hiding or backstab. Technically you could
put the staff on the ground so it would not need to be in the hands at that time; you'd
sneak up from behind, then backstab should be no problem. But what even IS a backstab
anyway? This is not even well-described. Why is a bastard sword considered a weapon
for backstab? What does that mean? Can the exact steps be described? And compared
with a dagger? By the way, if invisibility counts then haste should also count, because
in both cases you would not be easily able to respond. Perhaps not at the same penalty
but definitely at some kind of penalty.
> A sword can be, for example, hidden in the folds of a cloak.
But here you assume that every opponent can not infer that some weapon could be
hidden. That makes no sense. If I am a trained swordsman, I could expect any enemy
to have hidden weapons. That's different to being unable to see an enemy because
that enemy is hidden/invisible.
But here you assume that every opponent can not infer that some weapon could be
hidden. That makes no sense. If I am a trained swordsman, I could expect any enemy
to have hidden weapons. That's different to being unable to see an enemy because
that enemy is hidden/invisible. <
You misunderstand. I am postulating that the ambusher is already hidden; the fact that a sword can be obscured by the cloak just makes it easier to stay concealed (no sunlight glinting off a blade, for example) as opposed to carrying an 8 foot long pole. I am currently playing an MMORPG where the thief type profession is probibited from performing a backstab with any sort of long weapon. This includes things like naginatas, lances/long spears, halberds, and, yes, quarterstaves. Note that short stabbing spears ... something like an asagai, for example ... are able to be used for backstabbing purposes.
Again, categorically disagree about a quarter staff being an obvious weapon. It is well documented as a common aid/tool in ancient and medieval times.
And the point to the bow, and all of this, is to the point of the thief being able to move covertly (or not) as a key part of their ability to conduct thief related business. A thief carrying a bow... or a bastard sword is *obviously* NOT a simple beggar or ordinary part of the crowd moving through town. They will draw attention to themselves which may defeat any hope of getting a surprise attack.
As I said at first, a lot of this a little wonky. A Fighter/Thief of any sort gains the ability to use and carry a halberd or two-handed sword. An attentive DM would make it very difficult for such a character to do covert thieving business, while fully kitted out. A CRPG will miss the nuance.
The backstab rules are sort of a way of forcing the point. It makes it so your character is limited on what they can use for such a covert sort of attack.
I think the issue really comes down to looking at this as a role playing issue. Not about the pure mechanics of it. And that is a serious limitation of a CRPG that it always comes back to mechanics. But D&D was a role playing game first and foremost. Be the thief, play the part.
An example of this is using a staff: if you can go unnoticed behind a guy and land a big hit on his skull or neck you kill him, but if the guy has a full plate armor an helm you can not stab (kill him in one shot) him with a staff.
From a RP perspective is also important if the person you want to stab is neutral or hostile and already engaged in combat, if he is neutral makes sense that a Thief with a dagger or short sword can conceal it and perform a deadly surprise attack, but if he is already hostile you can have the smallest knife or the longest sword and it doesn't change anything, he is expecting an attack, he is on guard and you can not stab him unless you can approach hidden in shadows or invisible.
From the mechanics aspect of the CRPG it is a completely different thing based on balance and arbitrary decisions of who did set the rules and sometimes those rules don't make any RP sense at all. Why my thief can successfully hide in a shaded place then come to the enemy that is in a full light spot, pass right in front of him without him even noticing it then reach his back and stab? Why my Thief with UAI or some Mage levels that can use a staff to stab can not use the one of the Magi to stab? It is a staff like all the other staves so any character that can use a staff should be able to use it as a regular physical damage dealer, maybe if someone is not a mage should not be able to use its dispel on hit or invisibility or Spell Trap as he lacks the arcane knowledge to activate those abilities but in the end it is a staff so anyone that can use a staff should be able to hit and eventually stab with it.
But we have to take the game rules as they are without pretending them making any RP sense as it happens only sometimes, your Thief can not stab with his Bastard Sword and my FMT can't with the SotM and still a mid level Thief well before UAI can stab solo whole dungeons with a staff you can buy at the beginning of chap.2 and few oils of speed, can deplete whole mage spellbooks appearing at the edge of the mage's sight field to step back and hide in shadows as the mage begins to cast so the (on target) spell fizzles, can scout and then set trap carpets and lure the enemies into them and on and over.
We should not let some little nuances like not being able to stab with a bastard sword ruin our fun and experience and if possible we should not allow the fact that some things in the game have no RP sense at all ruin our immersion in the adventure.
Thieves rule, maybe Mages and Sorcerers are more powerful but there is nothing like to play a Thief at his best to have fun in the game!
Yes there is one thing better. A Berserker-thief dual character.
Going berserk makes you immune to a crapton of status effects, as well as pumping up your THACO.
Your backstab attempt will reveal you from hiding, at which point you can continue to fight in the open (with multiple attacks), or run back to cover and rejoin the rest of your crew.
As it turns out, there isn't a dedicated "can you backstab with this?" flag in the weapon's item file. Instead, the game uses the "can a pure thief use this?" flag for determining whether a melee weapon can backstab. So that's why the Staff of the Magi isn't suitable for backstabs. They were running short on spare bits, and used one for multiple roles.
So, if you want to enable backstabs on weapons like the SotM, you need to do a tricky workaround. The cleanest way, in the EE, would be to forbid those weapons for single-class thieves using the same technique as weapons usable by one of druids/shamans but not the other. (Because shamans also don't have a dedicated usability flag, and have to share the druid flag)
@FredN BersekerThief (and Cleric of Lathander Thief and other builds) is more powerful then single class Thief, this is sure, but not necessarily more fun to play.
The very fact that the single class has less HP, worst Thac0 and less protections and apr compels you to play him in a smarter way, you can not stab and then hope to continue the fight and survive, you have to divide and conquer, to use every environmental feature that can break the sight line to hide and stab again the enemy that is pursuing or to set traps on the route you will retreat after the first stab, you need good timing, awareness of how long you stay hidden and when the next round will begin so you can hide again, awareness of the terrain features, where are the spots that can break the sight line and where are the low light spots where you can hide with almost 100% chance to succeed.
Download the starting dungeon component of Tactics Remix and try to solo it with a pure Thief, it is very hard but possible, if you do it you will be compelled to learn how to use a Thief at 100% efficiency, I learned how to play a Thief is fun that way that is the hard way and my perspective on the real power of a Thief changed forever.
If you do it your BersT or my LathCT (22 rounds/day of kai like always maxed damage stabs) will become even more powerful and fun cause you can stay there and continue the fight after the stab but you don't have to do it, you have alternatives that in some tactical situations are much more effective. Give it a try and you will be surprised, but be prepared to endure a lot of reloads and frustration...
.....Now I do have experience with using a pure thief when I am playing something other than a thief myself. Namely Hexxat. Granted, she isn't your average thief, being a Vampire ... her stats without her cloak are rather impressive ... but when it comes to open combat, she has the usual thief disadvantages. Low HP, reduced THACO, limited number of weapon choices. I have also used Jan. Granted, he has spells, so it is tempting to just use him as a spell caster, but if I do use him as a thief, he has the usual thief limitations.
.....This brings me to another pet peeve of mine. The horrible lack of recruitable thief NPCs. Other than Jan and Hexxat, there is NOBODY. And please don't mention Nalia and Imoen. They are NOT thieves, they are mages who took a beginners course in Thief 101. Nalia even needs help in disarming traps and picking locks. Imoen got a B+ in the course, while Nalia barely squeaked by with a D. Imoen can do those jobs unaided, but cannot do anything else. Setting traps, for example, is way beyond either of their abilities.
.....OK, in the early part of SoA we can also recruit Yoshimo, but I think we all know what happens to him. He is NOT available for the latter parts of SoA, and is so thoroughly destroyed he cannot even be brought back by the Fate spirit in ToB. Yoshimo is basically more of a plot device then a real NPC. He has to die in Spellhold so that the party has an open slot for the newly rescued Imoen. Sucks to be Yoshimo. Mind you, he can be used quite effectively during the time he is actually available.
I never played with Hexxat as I always play good or neutral parties, I can sometimes have Korgan, even Keldorn is buddy with him, or Viky that has a chance to divert from her evil way, but I can not force myself to deal with an evil vampire, so I can not speak about her.
Jan and Yoshi are the only 2 options for me when I am not playing a Thief myself and Jan is pretty good at it thanks to the Thieving items you can get in chap.2 and his unique ones. He is almost as good as a pure class Thief at the beginning, his only problem is that he gets Thief xp so skills at half rate and here is when Nalia can still be relevant as a secondary Thief as well as Haer Dalis, a party with them in can let Jan focus on setting traps, hiding and detecting illusions as Nalia and the Bard take care of stealing, disabling traps and opening doors. Nalia will maybe need sometimes to use a knock spell or rely on projected image to survive a trap she can not detect and there are enough thieving potions around. So in the end Nalia can be very useful for a party that needs Jan as a Thief and to a lesser extent also for a party with a Charname Thief, pure class, dual or multi as she let's spare 140 skill points that can be invested in other skills.
That told I fear that we are going too much off topic with the last posts, The thread should deal strictly with backstab weaponry.
As for weaponry, my opinion is that a dual/multi class should be able to backstab with any weapon in which they have expertise. The designers obviously disagree.
The reason that I could never had her in the party is the same reason why in more then 20 years playing the game I never could force myself playing an evil Charname or choose the evil choices in the Hell's trials, even when I play a neutral Charname he is a sort of good-neutral guy Jaheera's like. It is a completely player taste related issue and I HATE bg2 vampires, in all my runs I make sure to kill every vampire i met in town at night, even when my party still has not the equipment and skill to fight them and I never sided with Bodhi.
I miss the best pure thief in the game and a very strong character? Yes sir, but other way i would loose my fun playing, for me my Charnames are somewhat extensions of who I am in real life, I would loose all the immersion in the game forcing me to RP someone that is the opposite or associates with its opposite. If possible I would kill Hexxat in every run after discovering who Clara actually is like I kill in every run Edvin as I also hate that arrogant red wizard, but sadly it is impossible afaik. Maybe next run I will try imprisonment on her, don't know if is possible, maybe I will ask my "friend" Kangaxx to do the task. "hey Hexxy come to the party, we have a beautiful fight to do (and you are perfect as cannon fodder for his first imprisonment spell...)".
BTW, weren’t you a regular around here way back in the day? Your name seems familiar, like during the original release of the EEs?
Ah, I see. I am sort of the same way. I have a mild case of ASPD (anti-social personality disorder, aka sociopath).
I don’t think the NPCs need to fill every niche. They are there to help you fill out a party and add some ambiance for the setting. You can build a balanced team whatever main character you choose to play. If you happen to really like playing thieves, either play one yourself or figure out how to make a provided thief work for you. There are also *a ton* of mod NPCs available if you want more.
This is part of why I always create *two* characters for my BG runs, so I can start with the types that matter to me, then fill out my party for some form balance.
I won’t put the onus on the developer to provide the character I want to play.
>I won’t put the onus on the developer to provide the character I want to play.<
Why not? Now, ToB has some flaws also, but development of that game apparently was a bit rushed. I guess they didn't anticipate that a lot of folks would complete SoA and want a sequel. But for the gaps in SoA, they have less of an excuse.
I would add, I don’t particularly care for any of the EE characters. Maybe Neera, at least in BG1. In BG2 there’s too many good mages, so I never use her. But I still love a lot of what the EEs brought to the game (bug fixes, faster loads, more stable, etc). But, I don’t know, I like IWD too where I build my whole team. I don’t need the developer to do that for me. Again, I’d say look to mods to find what you want. There’s probably 100 or more mod NPCs available.
As we have 2 and half thieves (half because of what happens after underdark) and 2 other ladies that are not true thieves but at least can cover the basics I would say that only mages, fighters and clerics are in a better position as being represented by npcs.
There are also npc mods out there and some of them are thieves and it is also possible to "mod" the regular npcs just using EEkeeper, in one of my runs Nalia was a Kensai9>Mage, I did it slightly changing her stats to make the dual classing legal keeping the same overall value and from a RP perspective in a fictional world where there are female fighters make sense that a noble young woman has some basic martial training. I would never transform Valygar into a mage given his story, but Viconia CT could make sense if you are bored of Jan and Hexxat and want a Thief among the standard npcs. And by the way CTs with their kai like backstabs rule...
Also there are 3 options for Druid.
But maybe it is better that I stop here... My point is only that most of the mod Thieves are not so OP, just that, and the official developers are free to introduce the new EE NPCs as they feel to do as long as we players are free to have them in the party or not.
I personally like Neera and will never use Hexxy or Dorn for the evilness reasons I already explained, but as some other players are happy to use them I don't rant about their being in the game, every player should be able to have fun as he likes in this not competitive CRPG.
To use mod NPCs is not cheating technically speaking as both in pre EE and EE modding was always welcomed by the developers and is a feature of the game, but if a player does not want to use mods that is perfectly fine. Even without using mods it is possible to build a Thief in multiplayer then import a save into single player so you can have a different class Charname and a Thief without using mod or not mod NPCs.
In the end we can EEkeeper some other NPC to be a Thief, use a Thief from a mod, build ourself the Thief that perfectly suits our needs and use it as Charname or a party member starting a game in multi player mode.
If someone is not happy about the number of Thieves he can have in the game IMHO is only a player and player self imposed limitations issue, not a game problem, given that in vanilla we have 2 and 1/2 Thieves + 4 NPCs that can perform some Thief tasks (Nalia, Imoen, Valygar and Haer Dalis) while at least 2 classes, Shaman and Sorcerer, lack of a single NPC.
.....I have already done an all-evil run, so in my current game I will go with the good side. Since my berserker>thief has all the necessary thief skills, I don't need Hexxat. Which means I can recruit folks like Keldorn, Mazzy etc. and not have any inter-party conflict.
.....Oh, and since you refuse to do evil parties, you are missing out on the most epic ... and downright difficult ... quest in any of the games. Namely, Dorn's Quest in ToB, where we literally storm the gates of Heaven. Well, in this universe it's called Lumia, but basically it's the same concept. What makes it difficult is that you cannot save the game! No scumsaving allowed, you have to do the entire thing in one shot. If you log off or your computer freezes, too bad; no auto save file will be created. You will have to go back to the very beginning. And it's no cakewalk. The opposition includes Knights, Paladins, Planetars, and not one but TWO Silver Dragons.
.....You cannot actually defeat all the enemies, they are pretty much endless. It's a hit and run special ops mission. Go in, hit the target, book like crazy for the exit while all the forces of Heaven try to stop you. Nor can you take refuge in the Pocket Plane, Doing so terminates the mission, nor can you ever return. It's a completely one shot deal. Win or die are the only two options.
The bigger point might be, since the player is always free to create as many characters as they want (I pretty much always create two for myself), a new NPC is conceptually the same thing as a player created character, with some dialogue. Some do include a minor attached adventure. Avoid the classic dogs like “Saerilith” and it shouldn’t mess with balance.
Personally I don’t generally do NPC mods, because I like the characters I can recruit in game. Except “Skie: Cost of One Girl’s Soul”. It lets me fix my biggest complaint with SoD, whether I actually recruit Skie (a Neutral thief BTW!) depends on my party build.