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Magic is ridiculously overpowered and needs to be toned down for a proper balance.


In my first ever playthrough of BG1 and BG2, I picked a sorcerer and steamrolled over every boss with ease, especially in BG2.

Once I learned Chain Contingency, which can be fired without any delays, I simply loaded 3 skulltrap or 3 sunfire for those with magic resistance and fired it with enemy sighted condition. When 2 CC became available, 6 skulltraps, 3 abidalzim's horrid wiltings + 3 skulltraps, or 3 lower resistance + 3 skulltrap was enough to finish any fights in 3 secs.

It resulted in my sorcerer, who wasn't even soloing, slaying every single dragon and Messisan single-handly in less than 1 second with core difficulty. (the final stage of TOB fight was over in 1 sec, no exaggeration lol) Even before the enemy boss's scripted defense spells were fired, they took 300~400 damages and was out. even if they got their defense up, 3 Pierce Shield immediately followed by attacking spells in 0.1 sec delay put them down.


You can fire 5 CC with 15 spells loaded in 1 sec, no restrictions or whatsoever. And i'm not even done when talking about the OP spell mechanic if you know what i'm saying. Time stop is ridiculous, a set of CCed skulltrap does 20d6 *3 to max of 360 damage, and with improved alacrity and defense spells, your spellcaster, especially a sorc, can beat the entire game without taking 1 hp loss if you are carefull enough.(haven't accomplished it since this was my first run ever, but I think it's totally possible) and there are so many cheese like imrpoved invisibility + spell immunity combo which renders enemy spell casters useless.




I heard BG:EE is not including SCS(which is unfortunate because while they didn't change spells much the improved AI deals with player spell casters rather effectively), if so they should at least do spell overhaul or otherwise this game's battles will be boring as Monday morning for experienced players.









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Comments

  • ARKdeEREHARKdeEREH Member Posts: 531
    edited November 2012
    Increase the difficulty level of your game. Try playing on the 'insane' difficulty level and it will more challenging. If you have already done that, try installing the mod SCS and play with tactics enabled. I've never played as a sorcerer, but I play as a level 195 fighter/mage, and with SCS tactics on insane. I use level 9 spells all the time, but in those settings there are many battles that are still very difficult.
  • GygaxianProseGygaxianProse Member Posts: 201
    @intothedarkness: while I am no rules lawyer, I happen to have a copy of the supplement in which CC appears (Tome of Magic). Although the Infinity Engine modifies many 2E rules, I think this is simple error. The Tome clearly states that, just like with the 6th level spell, Contingency, only one can be in effect at a time.
  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560
    I've never actually seen a computer RPG where high level casters don't end up severely unbalanced, especially compared to other classes. The AoE damage and crowd control is always going to trump physical damage dealers.

    I have to echo other sentiments here -- SCS with pre-buffing enemy mages, smarter AI, better calls for help, and improved end chapter battles makes the fights *much* more difficult, even on core.
  • NadroirNadroir Member Posts: 50
    Why do you make them do crazy damage if you don't like it? Try playing without Chain Contingency.
  • CandramelekhCandramelekh Member Posts: 109

    can beat the entire game without taking 1 hp loss if you are carefull enough.

    : ) You mean, if you have lot of time to rest
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    I think we have reason to expect a lower magic setting for FR in BG3.
  • ElofElof Member Posts: 42
    I actually really dislike using magic in Baldur's Gate/D&D. Sure if you go into a fight fresh with all your spells you have an easy ride... but I don't abuse the rest button. I rest at night, or when my party complains of fatigue. As a consequence my mages have to go for usually a whole game day between resting. Magic really isn't that great when you have to make it last dozens of encounters. You're always trying to save your best spells for the big fight coming up or because you never know when you might need it. :(

    Maybe I just suck at playing mages though.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Magic in Baldur's Gate is one of its greatest attractivities!

    Spells *are* that powerful in pen-and=paper AD&D as well, the only difference is that pnp requires "material components" , which balances things a bit (you need diamond dust to cast stoneskin!)
    .

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Elof said:

    I actually really dislike using magic in Baldur's Gate/D&D. Sure if you go into a fight fresh with all your spells you have an easy ride... but I don't abuse the rest button. I rest at night, or when my party complains of fatigue. As a consequence my mages have to go for usually a whole game day between resting. Magic really isn't that great when you have to make it last dozens of encounters. You're always trying to save your best spells for the big fight coming up or because you never know when you might need it. :(

    Maybe I just suck at playing mages though.

    Nay, you're just trying to play it realistically - parties don't rest for 8 hours between every combat.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Never thought of playing a sorcerer that way... Nice. Perhaps we can have some Sorcerers put into the game that deal with you (CHARNAME) in that exact fashion! That would be a difficult encounter!
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Just realised... You probably rested A LOT!
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Simple: Enforce "daily" spells. If you rest, you cannot rest until at least eight in-game hours have passed.

    Hard: Enforce camping supply requirements - Unless you have food in your inventory, you cannot rest. Rest too much? Go back to town, enjoy your repopulated dungeon for the time it takes. Want to spam rest? Fill yourself up with rations, costing you money, weighing you down and preventing you from filling up with treasure instead.

    Either way, Magic is ridiculously overpowered; by high levels you're literally Wishing for objective reality to change to suit you better. That's just D&D.
  • GogandantesGogandantes Member Posts: 4
    So, now you understand why magic is banned in Athkatla. ;)

    Since magic have such a strong presence in Faerûn, I see overpowered magic as a flavor in the setting. Playing a truly powerful wizard should make you feel like a god among mere mortals, and DnD really succed in that aspect. Just look at Irenicus for gods sake.
    This is not saying mages shouldn't have bane. A well coordinated backstab, or an archer spraying 10 arrows per round, will make any wizard feel uncomfortable.
    Oh, and my dual-classed Kensai/Thief dished out around 300 damage per hit with the assassination ability, 5 attacks per round without haste, isn't THAT being overpowered?! But that's because you're a seriously unbalanced dude, dammit. :P
  • GloktaGlokta Member Posts: 97
    edited November 2012
    I don't feel magic really needs to be toned down to be honest.
    You dont really have to use a spell combination that makes the fight a cakewalk, instead try to find diffrent ways to deal with the dangers you face, atleast for me thats part of the fun when i make another playthrough (damn you character creation screen, your to hard to pass:< ).

    And sometimes i just enjoy doing a "bow to me, pathetic human" playthrough with a godlike build ;)
  • PlasticGolemPlasticGolem Member Posts: 98
    DJKajuru said:

    Nay, you're just trying to play it realistically - parties don't rest for 8 hours between every combat.

    Realistically, a party would rest and train for days, weeks or months between combats. By the end of BG1, your party racks up more kills and fights in more battles than any real world elite fighting force would during their entire careers. By the time you enter the Friendly Arm Inn, you have probably killed three humans and up to a dozen assorted monsters and animals; in the real world, anyone who did that in one day, even on the battlefield, would be a serious outlier. Realistically, you have a 50% chance of surviving a fight to the death against an evenly-matched opponent, and a slightly less than 0.1% chance of surviving 10 such fights.

    As far as magic goes, in the hands of a novice player, magic is not overwhelmingly powerful. Experienced players who understand how the magic system works, know what to expect form enemies, and are willing to invest the time and effort in careful and tedious preparation (memorize spell sequencers and triggers, rest, cast triggers and sequencers, memorize different spells, rest, approach enemy, cast a bunch of buffs, enter combat, win, repeat the entire process with the next foe) instead of playing more like an adventure where you respond to threats spontaneously, magic can easily dominate the game. But you don't have to play like that. You can limit your use of magic, decline to use items like the cloak of mirroring or robe of Vecna which effectively remove entire classes of challenge from the game, and play the game in a way that doesn't allow your characters to take advantage of your meta-knowledge of what's coming next and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

    Meta-knowledge makes the biggest difference. For example, Kangaax is pretty easy to defeat once you know how he works, but if you didn't know that (a) he was going to turn into a demi-lich and (b) what a demi-lich can do, you are probably going to have your party wiped out, or at least a good many of them imprisoned before you have to run away and prepare to come back and fight him, now knowing what he can do.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Elof said:

    I actually really dislike using magic in Baldur's Gate/D&D. Sure if you go into a fight fresh with all your spells you have an easy ride... but I don't abuse the rest button. I rest at night, or when my party complains of fatigue. As a consequence my mages have to go for usually a whole game day between resting. Magic really isn't that great when you have to make it last dozens of encounters. You're always trying to save your best spells for the big fight coming up or because you never know when you might need it. :(

    Maybe I just suck at playing mages though.

    You dont need to use spells for 80% of the fights, just polymorph self and wands / clickies.
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    The problem aint magic in general but Chain Contingency that's "buggy". It can be cast instantaneously which is wrong. It should have casting time of at least 1 turn, or even 2 turns. That would balance it out and it would work as intended, prebuff, not a way to cast spells faster in combat. So this is pretty easy to fix. Another "cheesy" tactic is abusing CC and Project Image, creating huge number of clones, but thats easy to fix by limiting PI to 1 clone max. After these changes, or simply by not using them because you are not supposed to abuse bugs, the game is far more balanced. Furthermore, the point is to have party of 6 people. So while mages are most powerful at the end game, they suck in the beginning. So the party as whole remains balanced through out the game, not a single character.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    1 round you mean, 1 turn would be something like 5 minutes in real life of casting time.
  • trinittrinit Member Posts: 705
    Magic in general is overpowered, if compared to other classes. But good luck changing that. I think it will simply stay that way for legacy reasons...
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Moderate physical abilities should be introduced on the game in my view besides the HLA skills, knockdown for fighter classes for example would be nice.

    BG HLA skills already made a proof that physical abilities are compatible with this game, so why not some common abilities?
  • GygaxianProseGygaxianProse Member Posts: 201
    Bercon said:

    The problem aint magic in general but Chain Contingency that's "buggy". It can be cast instantaneously which is wrong. It should have casting time of at least 1 turn, or even 2 turns. That would balance it out and it would work as intended, prebuff, not a way to cast spells faster in combat. So this is pretty easy to fix. Another "cheesy" tactic is abusing CC and Project Image, creating huge number of clones, but thats easy to fix by limiting PI to 1 clone max. After these changes, or simply by not using them because you are not supposed to abuse bugs, the game is far more balanced. Furthermore, the point is to have party of 6 people. So while mages are most powerful at the end game, they suck in the beginning. So the party as whole remains balanced through out the game, not a single character.

    Good points overall. Stacking CC is a bug -

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