what's the point other than to overpower characters?
plus when bhaal walked the prime material plane he impregnated (correct me if i'm wrong, it's been a while since i read the trilogy and really immersed myself in the lore) his followers at temples tended by his "deathstalkers" i can't see there being many drow or duergar or deep gnomes etc etc there.
similarly why you can't have tieflings, aasimar and the like.
Someone mentioned the fact that katanas and ninja-tos aren't in the manual.
That's actually intentional. It's a guide to the Sword Coast, not Faerun. Katanas and other exotic weapons might be possible to find, but they're not "native" to the region, which is why they're not included in the manual.
There probably could have been a note saying that there are other weapons to be found if you look hard enough, but there was really no reason for Volo to include descriptions of every possible weapon when only certain weapons are "common".
Please, notice that we are not talking about “Sword Coast survival guide” but rather “BG EE manual mastering melee and magic”. This manual that describes BG EE and not Sword Coast, in my opinion, should be as comprehensive and accurate as possible. It’s very important for planning your character and be more immersed in game. I understand that for lots of BG vets here this might be of little importance because you already know all the ins and outs of the game. It might be essential though for new players who might be confused by AD&D rules and this vast new world. We should do our best to make it as comprehensive for them as possible.
People might be confused by lack of weapon descriptions as by lots of other things. For example manual doesn’t says anything about experience cap so it’s natural for new players to think that they will be able to progress to level 10 as it is shown in Table 2.
I agree though that first part of “Sword Coast survival guide” should be written just as you described it. Here, it’s appropriate to leave some things untold as it better captures the atmosphere of fantasy and mystery. It’s also fun to discover those elements in the game after you read some rumors about them.
It's still Volo writing it, though, and he's writing it from the perspective of his audience being on the Sword Coast. It's the same reason why the original manual didn't describe scimitars, despite there being a bunch of them around. I agree that a note about "other weapons" wouldn't be amiss, to avoid any possible confusion.
Seems more like oversight than something worth 'explaining away'. I wouldn't worry too much, though - these are good people that are really trying to make the manual excellent. What we need will be there, with your katanas and tantos and whatever else was added.
Tanto - dagger, really. MINI mini katana. And, yes, I know it is not in the game :P
@Aosaw@Elminster They are in the Oriental Adventures Hardback, from 1e. Along with lots of other interesting Eastern weapons, like the Cho ku(ko) nu (not sure of the spelling on that one, at work and can't look it up), pellet bow, and various martial arts weapons.
@Pantalion Eladrin, I believe. And don't forget the Lythari, Elven shapeshifters who spent time in wolf for. And the three types of Halflings are Tallfellow (live near elves), Stout (live near dwarves) and Hairfeet (live near humans. Also among the Planetouched were the Bariaur and Rogue Modrons.
I think that Aasimar are probably out of the question-don't see even Bhaal coupling with a Celestial's child. Same probably goes for Tiefling, although I guess Tieflings are more likely than Aasimar. Dark Elves would be ridiculously overplayed-although it would be funny if we were forced to be Evil when playing as them (no Drizzt imposters here! ).
I'll probably still buy the game anyway even tho the lack of subraces is a travesty. Anyway, maybe later they can take away features with redownloadable contents. As long as the game isn't completely bug-ridden I see no reason why it shouldn't sell at least a trillion copies. I tried to get my mom to buy it but she only plays those Japanese rape simulator games.
I don't even want to see subraces if those subraces would logically provoke extreme reactions which we won't actually get a chance to see anywhere. Sorry, but outside of Drizzt, when people see a Drow they are quite justified in reacting badly. Same would go for Duergar.
I don't even want to see subraces if those subraces would logically provoke extreme reactions which we won't actually get a chance to see anywhere. Sorry, but outside of Drizzt, when people see a Drow they are quite justified in reacting badly. Same would go for Duergar.
Yet you walk around with Viconia and 9 times out of 10 nothing ever happens.
I don't even want to see subraces if those subraces would logically provoke extreme reactions which we won't actually get a chance to see anywhere. Sorry, but outside of Drizzt, when people see a Drow they are quite justified in reacting badly. Same would go for Duergar.
Yet you walk around with Viconia and 9 times out of 10 nothing ever happens.
And yes, that is ridiculous.
It shows the problem with some of the more exotic subraces, and particularly with those which are justifiably considered evil-aligned 99% of the time. You can't rewrite all the dialogue to take into account that one of your party members is part of a race that regular raids the surface to murder and enslave, yet when people take no notice of this fact it sticks out like a sore thumb.
The game does have multi-player though, and hopefully the ability to have player made adventures, so allowing subraces could be a good thing even if it makes no sense for the main campaign.
I am ok with it though, I never understood people's desire to stop others from cheating in a single player game, and I don't understand peoples desire to stop others from playing races that don't fit the plot either.
I'm pretty sure I'm not heartbroken about @lolth not buying this game. I wouldn't want to be matched up with him in multiplayer; half of his writing is unintelligible.
He seems to just be trolling, but out of boredom I scrolled through the whole thread and it appeared to have some actual conversations taking place in it as well.
I am ok with it though, I never understood people's desire to stop others from cheating in a single player game, and I don't understand peoples desire to stop others from playing races that don't fit the plot either.
People can cheat and use absurd subraces to their hearts content. I'd just prefer it if they do it through mods and leave the developers to focus on producing material that isn't dumb.
I would like to point out, for the record, that the race descriptions for elf, gnome, halfling, and dwarf all include a note about their subraces. So if you want to play a Gold Dwarf, for instance, there's nothing stopping you from changing your hair and skin color to do just that. Same thing with a drow or a moon elf.
The only thing that you can't do is gain mechanical bonuses from that choice. So really, the question is this: why do you want the subraces? If it's because you want the mechanical bonuses, there's no reason you couldn't just create a mod that changes the desired race to be what you want.
what's the point other than to overpower characters?
To provide more interesting character concepts to have fun with? I'm not saying Overhaul Games needs to flood the character creation options right off the bat, but having more options isn't the same thing as trying to overpower everything.
That being said, I'm totally fine with what is being offered by the EE on release. Bug fixes and graphic overhauls take precedence, in my opinion.
Subraces are actually really cool and I hope we'll get to see them eventually, but I'm thinking of subraces like Gold Dwarves or Wild Elves or Aasimar. Its just subraces like the drow, who by their very nature should wildly change every interaction in the game but obviously won't, that I find ridiculous.
But of course if subraces are included and 'drow' isn't one of them, I'd be shocked. They're too popular. If someone wants to play one, then it's their game and they can play it however they like. That doesn't make it any less absurd.
I never said it was, but the reaction to it is similar from some people.
An exploit that can not be reproduced by anyone accidentally and requires the player to go out of their way to find and abuse it doesn't hurt the game for instance. There is no reason for developers to spend time correcting something that can never happen to someone on accident, if someone wants to cheat and use an exploit that is their business.
Sub races are similar in that they have zero effect on any player who isn't using them, sure I would like to see them present but not available to the bhaalspawn, that way they are in the game when needed, but I would rather have them present and usable when it doesn't make sense then not present at all.
See, I'd rather see new races. Aasimar and Tieflings, for instance. Or Genasi. When the existing options have the potential to cover those things, I'd much prefer to see new faces in the party roster.
Subraces... well I am not entierly against the concept but I think it would be something like putting to many different spice in a food. I believe we have enough option already for everyone's taste. The only thing that would make them really fun (and realistic) if there would be a LOT of new dialogs for them which isn't possible.
Comments
what's the point other than to overpower characters?
plus when bhaal walked the prime material plane he impregnated (correct me if i'm wrong, it's been a while since i read the trilogy and really immersed myself in the lore) his followers at temples tended by his "deathstalkers" i can't see there being many drow or duergar or deep gnomes etc etc there.
similarly why you can't have tieflings, aasimar and the like.
People might be confused by lack of weapon descriptions as by lots of other things. For example manual doesn’t says anything about experience cap so it’s natural for new players to think that they will be able to progress to level 10 as it is shown in Table 2.
I agree though that first part of “Sword Coast survival guide” should be written just as you described it. Here, it’s appropriate to leave some things untold as it better captures the atmosphere of fantasy and mystery. It’s also fun to discover those elements in the game after you read some rumors about them.
It's still Volo writing it, though, and he's writing it from the perspective of his audience being on the Sword Coast. It's the same reason why the original manual didn't describe scimitars, despite there being a bunch of them around. I agree that a note about "other weapons" wouldn't be amiss, to avoid any possible confusion.
Tanto - dagger, really. MINI mini katana. And, yes, I know it is not in the game :P
@Pantalion Eladrin, I believe. And don't forget the Lythari, Elven shapeshifters who spent time in wolf for. And the three types of Halflings are Tallfellow (live near elves), Stout (live near dwarves) and Hairfeet (live near humans. Also among the Planetouched were the Bariaur and Rogue Modrons.
Since IWD2 didn't have subclasses, is this a hint?
I meant subraces. >.<
You know. Because bards are lame.
Ah, much clearer, thank you. So...
Aasimar
Tiefling
Shield Dwarf
Gold Dwarf
Gray Dwarf
Moon Elf
Drow
Wild Elf
Rock Gnome
Deep Gnome
Lightfoot Halfling
Strongheart Halfling
Ghostwise Halfling
I assume Moon, Shield, Rock and Lightfoot are the defaults, though I don't recall the AD&D analogues for the rest.
It shows the problem with some of the more exotic subraces, and particularly with those which are justifiably considered evil-aligned 99% of the time. You can't rewrite all the dialogue to take into account that one of your party members is part of a race that regular raids the surface to murder and enslave, yet when people take no notice of this fact it sticks out like a sore thumb.
I am ok with it though, I never understood people's desire to stop others from cheating in a single player game, and I don't understand peoples desire to stop others from playing races that don't fit the plot either.
The only thing that you can't do is gain mechanical bonuses from that choice. So really, the question is this: why do you want the subraces? If it's because you want the mechanical bonuses, there's no reason you couldn't just create a mod that changes the desired race to be what you want.
That being said, I'm totally fine with what is being offered by the EE on release. Bug fixes and graphic overhauls take precedence, in my opinion.
But of course if subraces are included and 'drow' isn't one of them, I'd be shocked. They're too popular. If someone wants to play one, then it's their game and they can play it however they like. That doesn't make it any less absurd.
An exploit that can not be reproduced by anyone accidentally and requires the player to go out of their way to find and abuse it doesn't hurt the game for instance. There is no reason for developers to spend time correcting something that can never happen to someone on accident, if someone wants to cheat and use an exploit that is their business.
Sub races are similar in that they have zero effect on any player who isn't using them, sure I would like to see them present but not available to the bhaalspawn, that way they are in the game when needed, but I would rather have them present and usable when it doesn't make sense then not present at all.