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Assassin as Scout?

NemNem Member Posts: 51
in Archive (General Discussion)
Would it be possible to create a dwarf assassin for the purpose of backstabbing and removing traps? Or would he be too limited in points to distribute them amongst the 3 key skills?

Thanks!
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Comments

  • KirkorKirkor Member Posts: 700
    edited November 2012
    Well, I've played pure assassin elf, and it worked fine. Just don't distribute points into any other skills, but those 3, and you should do ok.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Of course it's possible, but it'll take longer to get the skills up, meaning you'll have to be more patient.
  • RavelRavel Member Posts: 140
    My gut tells me that he wouldn't have enough points in BG1 to effectively do all 3, but I haven't played an assassin in BG1 before so I can't say for certain.

    I thought about doing an assassin in BG:EE, but i'll probably hold off just because you don't benefit from the higher backstab at these lower levels, unfortunately :(
  • JaxsbudgieJaxsbudgie Member Posts: 600
    edited November 2012
    Well, Dwarves gain +15 to find traps at character creation, on top of that Thieves gain +40 at level 1 and then Assassins gain +15 every level after. I believe with the level cap, Thieves can reach level 9 (or 10 maybe?), so with that in mind, your Assassin will have +175 (190 if level 10) points to distribute. Couple that with the shadow armour (+15 hide in shadows) and boots of stealth (+20 move silently and +15 to hide in shadow) and that's 225 points you can achieve in stealth, which is about right to successfully hide the majority of the time. Means your find traps will be paltry though. This is why Assassins come into their own a few levels on when they supersede x5 backstab damage.
    Post edited by Jaxsbudgie on
  • FrozenCellsFrozenCells Member Posts: 385
    edited November 2012
    At BG1 levels you can level up three skills efficiently with an Assassin including the two stealth skills, since there are two important items which boost an Assassin's stealth, so you don't have to max it out. Having around 90-110 in hide/move silently (after item boosts) will be fine, though especially in the beginning and also just generally, try to be a creature of the night because you won't have good enough stealth to reliably hide in daylight unless you only pour points into stealth. The Assassin's poison weapon ability is going to be absolutely devastating in this game btw since they apparently haven't edited it...
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    I tend to focus assassins on hide in shadows/move silently initially, until (combined with boots of stealth and later the shadow armour) I can relaibly stay hidden in daylight, and use them extensively for both scouting and backstabs. I find you might need another thief, though, at least early on, to help with traps and locks.
  • NemNem Member Posts: 51
    I'm intending to play a multiplayer game with my brother, and he normally plays the 5 NPCs and I play the main character. I'm hoping to play an assassin who can remove traps and get the opening strike in combat, as it gives me more to do, and less micromanaging for traps on my brother's part. :)

    I may attempt putting minimal points into hide/move silently and rely on items I suppose. That doesn't sound so bad.

    It's a shame dwarves can't be a mage/thief, as I want to play a dwarf, and that combo would be a little more entertaining for me as a stand-alone character.

    Thanks for the input!
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Nem said:

    I'm intending to play a multiplayer game with my brother, and he normally plays the 5 NPCs and I play the main character. I'm hoping to play an assassin who can remove traps and get the opening strike in combat, as it gives me more to do, and less micromanaging for traps on my brother's part. :)

    I may attempt putting minimal points into hide/move silently and rely on items I suppose. That doesn't sound so bad.

    It's a shame dwarves can't be a mage/thief, as I want to play a dwarf, and that combo would be a little more entertaining for me as a stand-alone character.

    You could do a Gnome Illusionist/Thief? It's a strong class combo
  • BolekBolek Member Posts: 60
    Can anybody present me how BG:EE will calculate backstab dmg?
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Bolek said:

    Can anybody present me how BG:EE will calculate backstab dmg?

    The same as in BG1/BG1, I imagine.

    See the backstab progression multiplier progression chart for theives and assassins here:
    http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Thieves_and_Bards

    BTW the character's Strength damage bonus only gets added *after* the multiplier

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    Dwarves are a little limited on the thieving skills to start with because they only have 17 max dexterity.

    That said, you should be fine. Get about 50 points in Hide in Shadows early, supplement it with stealth gear as has been mentioned, and dump the rest into find trap til you hit at least 80.

    Opening locks on top of that probably won't happen without aid. Just make sure your mage learns knock and you'll be kosher.
  • NemNem Member Posts: 51
    sandmanCCL said:

    Dwarves are a little limited on the thieving skills to start with because they only have 17 max dexterity.

    That said, you should be fine. Get about 50 points in Hide in Shadows early, supplement it with stealth gear as has been mentioned, and dump the rest into find trap til you hit at least 80.

    Opening locks on top of that probably won't happen without aid. Just make sure your mage learns knock and you'll be kosher.

    I'm okay with not picking locks. I just want to scout ahead for traps, so I'm hoping this idea works out.
    Oxford_Guy said:

    Nem said:

    I'm intending to play a multiplayer game with my brother, and he normally plays the 5 NPCs and I play the main character. I'm hoping to play an assassin who can remove traps and get the opening strike in combat, as it gives me more to do, and less micromanaging for traps on my brother's part. :)

    I may attempt putting minimal points into hide/move silently and rely on items I suppose. That doesn't sound so bad.

    It's a shame dwarves can't be a mage/thief, as I want to play a dwarf, and that combo would be a little more entertaining for me as a stand-alone character.

    You could do a Gnome Illusionist/Thief? It's a strong class combo
    Yeah I considered that, but I just like the idea of playing a dwarf. I have no idea why.
  • BolekBolek Member Posts: 60
    If I want to play in backstab style where should I invest points?
  • NemNem Member Posts: 51
    Bolek said:

    If I want to play in backstab style where should I invest points?

    Hide and Move Silently if that's all you wish to do. Can also use invisibility (items/spells). STR can help you hit your target, and DEX improves your thief skills.

    Assassins get a 7x Multiplier.

    Stalkers (Ranger kit) can also backstab at a lesser amount than a thief.

    Swashbuckler (Thief kit) can't backstab.

    Can also make different combination classes that can backstab.
  • BolekBolek Member Posts: 60
    @Nem - many thanks!
  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    edited November 2012
    FrozenCells said:

    At BG1 levels you can level up three skills efficiently with an Assassin including the two stealth skills, since there are two important items which boost an Assassin's stealth, so you don't have to max it out. Having around 90-110 in hide/move silently (after item boosts) will be fine, though especially in the beginning and also just generally, try to be a creature of the night because you won't have good enough stealth to reliably hide in daylight unless you only pour points into stealth. The Assassin's poison weapon ability is going to be absolutely devastating in this game btw since they apparently haven't edited it...

    Is poison weapon going to be changed? I hope not.

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Assassins will be a lot more enjoyable in BG1 than in BGII because the idea of having another thief in the party is not nearly so painful. There is *absolutely no* shortage of thieves in BG1.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    Quartz said:

    Assassins will be a lot more enjoyable in BG1 than in BGII because the idea of having another thief in the party is not nearly so painful. There is *absolutely no* shortage of thieves in BG1.

    Well, unless you start eliminating the competition :p
  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    edited November 2012
    The other good thing about the assassin in BG1 is that he will level fast and will also have a half-way decent THACO assuming you go with an elf.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    BTW you can't search for traps whilst stealthed, in case this isn't obvious.
  • NemNem Member Posts: 51
    Oxford_Guy said:

    BTW you can't search for traps whilst stealthed, in case this isn't obvious.

    I actually hadn't thought of that. I believe later editions of D&D do allow this?

    In any case, that makes the whole scout idea a little less useful I suppose. I can't do both, so I'm either going to alert the enemy, or set off a trap.

    Maybe a Thief/Mage (invisibility) or Thief/Cleric (find traps spell and sanctuary) really would be the better route for me to take. Hmmm.

    Thanks for pointing that out.
  • NemNem Member Posts: 51
    Does backstab have to be done from stealth? Or does invisibility/sanctuary provide the same effect?
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    You could just play a normal thief and roleplay as an assassin.

    Just because the kit exists doesn't mean you have to take it in order to perform in that role.
  • IgnatiusIgnatius Member Posts: 624
    Nem said:

    Does backstab have to be done from stealth? Or does invisibility/sanctuary provide the same effect?

    same effect

  • NemNem Member Posts: 51
    decado said:

    You could just play a normal thief and roleplay as an assassin.

    Just because the kit exists doesn't mean you have to take it in order to perform in that role.

    Yeah I just like the assassin's abilities. :)
    Ignatius said:

    Nem said:

    Does backstab have to be done from stealth? Or does invisibility/sanctuary provide the same effect?

    same effect

    Well that really makes a multi-class thief seem appealing, as I can just ignore hide in shadows and move silently. Maybe I'll settle for a gnome thief afterall.
  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    If you want an assassin that can hit hard and often, I would go with a fighter/thief OR as someone already mentioned, a gnome illusionist/thief which is equally cool. The assassin kit is pretty cool but it takes time for it to get off the ground and poison weapon is the only ability that makes it stand out. What they should've done is let the assassin start with a 3x backstab multiplier at level 1 and allowed them to specialize in daggers, and darts or something like that. Granted you could always use shadowkeeper to add these modifications.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    Ignatius said:

    Nem said:

    Does backstab have to be done from stealth? Or does invisibility/sanctuary provide the same effect?

    same effect

    I think you are half right on this one. I'm pretty sure with sanctuary you don't get the +4 bonus to hit that you get with invisibility or stealth, and you certainly get no backstab multiplier. With invisibility/improved invisibility (or I guess Shadow Door) you do get the backstab bonus and you do get the bonus to hit.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Ignatius said:

    Nem said:

    Does backstab have to be done from stealth? Or does invisibility/sanctuary provide the same effect?

    same effect
    No it's not, you can backstab from Invisibility, but not from Sanctuary, though you can Find Traps with Sanctuary on (same for Invisibility) and it can be used to help you escape from melee so that you can Stealth again to backstab.
  • NemNem Member Posts: 51
    Would a cloak or spell of non-detection replace the move silently skill?

    My options seems to be go full thief and spread my skills evenly between traps, hide, and move silently. Go thief/mage and use invisibility instead of hide/move silently (I've been reading that hide becomes better than invisibility in BG2, so I'm not sure what I'm going to do here yet). Or go thief/cleric and come up with some weird way of dealing with my previous issues (find traps and summons instead of search and remove? sanctuary and hide?).

    Decisions!
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    Two quick points to add:

    (1) Assassins do eventually get x7 backstab damage but for BG1 purposes they have the same backstab as a vanilla thief. The distinguishing feature for BG1 is the poison weapon ability (which is great).

    (2) Finding traps doesn't instantly expose the thief like attacking does. It gives you the normal time you would have if you failed a hide in shadows check so you can actually scout short distances with hide in shadows. That said, scouting the area is most easily done by having a mage cast invisibility on the assassin and then finding traps.
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