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+1 Weapons are Boring

TiggrrTiggrr Member Posts: 25
edited July 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
It seems to me that magical weapons (and items in general) ought to feel like something special, and nothing kills that feeling more than magical weapons which are just identified as a longsword +1. This is even worse if you can buy +1 weapons from stores as though they've been knocked up in some factory in Kara Tur.

While it would seem extremely reasonable to be able to buy non-magically enhanced weapons from a fine smith such as the guy in Beregost (like +1 to hit, or +1 damage, or perhaps just immunity to the iron blight...all for a premium, of course), magical weapons deserve a bit more...er...magic. This could consist of:

(1) Giving the weapon a name. Some fancy weapons already have them, but wouldn't "Ogrebasher" sound better than "club+2", or "Needle" have more style than "shortsword+1"?

(2) Giving the item a different physical description - this longsword+1 has a dragon carved into the hilt, or this dagger+1 glows red when you pick it up.

(3) Giving the item a petty special ability - this Mace+1 is able to hit all undead creatures regardless of the magical bonus required to hit, or this magical rapier functions as a shortsword but deals damage as a longsword. Or a hit or damage bonus which is tied in with (1) or (4), like Ogrebasher doing an extra +2 damage against ogres.

(4) giving the item a story - this magical dagger was used to assassinate the previous Shadow Thief guildmaster, or this sword was crafted for the son of the King of Tethyr. The story might tie into a quest, or not.

Or some combination of these. Wouldn't this be much cooler than "another quarterstaff+1 - we can sell this for 400 gold?

(This can, of course, be extended to other magic items, though perhaps not scrolls and potions.)
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Comments

  • technophobetechnophobe Member Posts: 68
    FR is a ridiculously magic-rich setting; witness descriptions that refer to entire army legions equipped with magic weapons, rings being mass produced, armors being "copied", etc. Magic and magic items really are common commodities.
  • MathuzzzMathuzzz Member Posts: 203
    While I love when weapons have their own history, design and abilities, later in game (especially in BG2, where you sometimes have a problem if you need ordinary non-magical weapon) you would end up with tons of super weapons. And that is something I hate about most games(all the things you find are super magical) and what I love about BG and IWD. That they are not excessive in most ways. They feel like real medieval cruel, but beautiful world with lighter magic elements. So the opposite of all the fantasy RPGs nowadays.
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    edited July 2012
    In good old Mr. IWD, plenty of not very good items have names and descriptions. I always thought IWD's RANGE of weapons gave it an edge.

    I don't support making weapons beam light (get a 1PP mod if you want that, but I don't recommend it). I do support more descriptive items.

    I say keep enchanted weapons as is, just add some more items with 'descriptions' and a story.
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    Horn of Valhalla FOR THE WINS.

    YAAAAARRRRRR!!!!!!!
  • DMZDMZ Member Posts: 39
    edited July 2012
    Incase anybody got the wrong idea, I was in no way advocating an overall increase in the power of weapons - just trying to make them more interesting (and, as a sidebar, make the game less about min-maxing). There's no reason that every altered characteristic must be positive. That glowing dagger that Ward didn't care for might have no game effect and be just an extra line of text. A shortsword might be oddly weighted - +1 damage but has the speed factor of a longsword. Some characteristics might provide comic relief - a wand of magic missiles which doubles as a duck call. And some abilities might delay the obsolescence of an otherwise unspectacular item, like a very nicely wrought shield which provides +1 CHA but no additional protection.

    In the later game, +1 weapons are just a source of extra cash...a specialised additional ability might provide a bit more reason to look twice at non-overpowered treasure.

    I agree that IWD did a better job of making some lesser items worth a second look.
    However, if every single +1 item has some kind of story behind it, how are you going to explain the fact that there are about 20 other +1's of the same type lying around? Or that some guards carry a multitude of the same plus one weapons?

    We need unique weapons to know that they are better and different than the normal ones, but we also need boring magical weapons to stave the fact that there are, in fact, more unique versions of them. If you give every twig a story, the really magical weapons won't feel as special anymore.

  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Hmm, no need to have a story. Just city guard +1 weapons are one style, and named as 'standard issue Amnish peacekeeper sword' in Amn. It could be completely different name (art depicts different insignia), etc. You would typically found this weapon in one region, with some rare occasions at bandits, etc. You would see some other weapons in other cities/regions. Still they would be mostly the same item, still different. Maybe it is unpopular, but the same could go for potions. This isn't just artistic stuff. Identify would be more important. If there are multiple items which 'look the same' but have different effects, one would have to be more careful.
  • e3r4t5yne3r4t5yn Member Posts: 42
    guys, playing the single game you can use dlcept item editors to changes item appearance. for instance, put the glow on a blade, change crossgaurd colour and so on
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    Sounds more like a chance for a mod rather than feature in BG:EE. I think BG series already has plenty of unique magic items so this issue is not even that serious. I think there was already some mod that changes +1 magic items to "fine" items which are basically the same +1 but not "magical".
  • Bend3Bend3 Member Posts: 19
    edited July 2012
    Had to edit this a bit so its not as confusing now that its merged with this post...but...

    As it is, there are many +1 weapons, in bg1 and even more so in bg2, and nearly ALL of the magical items with backgrounds are very high power in comparison to any other "basic" weapons. So my proposal is that addition of some lower grade magical weapons that are still "special" but not top notch. Therefore adding more feel to items you use, even as you replace them.
    Post edited by Bend3 on
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited July 2012
    My mistake, you actually hadn't posted in this thread.

    Topics merged because they really seem similar to me.
  • Bend3Bend3 Member Posts: 19
    edited July 2012
    Yes i know it was similar, but it seemed like he meant more like he wanted all +1/2/3 weapons to have names and stories to spice them all up. What I'm asking for is close, but the big difference is that I would like to see some weaker versions of the "special" magic items, so that not all "Named" weapons are super weapons of mass power. Still keeping the +1/2/3 etc, but rounding out the named weapons. Sorry if I seem to be typing in circles =p

    So again, I don't care so much about the +1/2/3 weapons so much as the named magic weapons. Hence the reason I HAD made it in a separate post. but it was moved here, so okay then -.-
  • TrisTris Member Posts: 8
    What makes your isea hard to implement is that in the world of the game, +1 items are not unique, but more like mass produced items of better quality, so giving them singular names and abilities would defeat the purpose.

    That being said, adding "brands" of +1 weapons (like the swords forged for a specific skeleton army etc...) would fit in quite right in the background and give those weapons more identity.
  • pacekpacek Member Posts: 92
    You know, reading this discussion really made me think, in BG we have so many styles of mundane helmets and shields, why should magical weapons be so generic? I'm not advocating unique descriptions, but certainly there should be more than one type of +1 longsword on the sword coast. More flavour gives a richer play experience.
  • CommunardCommunard Member Posts: 556
    I think most of the +1 weapons should be renamed "masterwork". Magical weapons should be rare and interesting, the ridiculous quantity of +1 magic weapons on the sword coast is silly to me (especially since there is an economic depression going on because of the Iron Crisis). Masterwork weapons would be generic, and +1 magical weapons would have an interesting story. Nothing mechanically would change. A good compromise for everyone?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Masterwork weapons would be generic, and +1 magical weapons would have an interesting story. Nothing mechanically would change. A good compromise for everyone?
    Those masterwork weapons would be breakable though.
  • CommunardCommunard Member Posts: 556
    edited July 2012
    Masterwork weapons would be generic, and +1 magical weapons would have an interesting story. Nothing mechanically would change. A good compromise for everyone?
    Those masterwork weapons would be breakable though.
    I suppose that would be a mechanical change - but one that would make sense from a story standpoint. It's ridiculously easy to get around the iron crisis breaking weapons in a few levels of play, because there are so many magic ones around.

  • BrighamFishBrighamFish Member Posts: 12
    edited July 2012
    I think that providing lots of "speacial weapons" would definetly ruin the flavor of BG1 it has it's place in BG2.

    1) an excess in speacial weapons provides players to make super powered characters with little to no exp thus making a higher difficulty setting than what is already desired

    2)although it's true that +1 weapons are in abundance in BG1 it allows for more excitement when you discover a better weapon.

    3) I belive that a +3 weapon in BG1 kind of had the same equivilant to say the soul reaver in BG2 you have to spend a lot of time to get the world's edge in durlag's tower and sure you don't get +50% magic resistance for using it but compared to a +1 two handed sword it was much better, besides you arent killing beholders or enormouse dragons in BG1 it's enough to have rare "better" items in my opinion

    4) also ( no offense) having useless or minor modifications to weapons just makes it seem a bit more like Fate if you ask me a game my little sister plays
  • CommunardCommunard Member Posts: 556
    @BrighamFish the assumption in that entire post is that "special" means "powerful". Why so?
  • BrighamFishBrighamFish Member Posts: 12
    edited July 2012
    sorry for the mistake although most powerful weapons are speacial but not always the other way around

    But yes too many powerful weapons would ruin the taste and I will stick to what I said about little to no point modifications to +1 weapons ty @communard
  • TauronTauron Member Posts: 22
    edited July 2012
    Ah, nothing like your first +1 ...umm, good times, remeber my first +1 staff! Happy feeling was more intense than having my own pocket plane...ohh I how held it all the time! Before I would sleep, i used to stroke my staff and tell it how big and shiny it is, it looked much better in my hands than that witch Silkie. Got carried away once and thought to my self, bah who needs a magic missile and so I charged hobgoblin...painfull lesson, not all that shines is blablabla...

    anyway some good points, there are aLot +1 magical weapons in Faerun, someone mentioned armies. Not that they mass produce them, but they tend to survive passing of time being imbued with magic. It is acually high magic world, especially after yiu lvl. I cant help but lean toward low magic worlds, becouse magic artifacs feel special and more unic than.
  • xan212xan212 Member Posts: 65
    I like Twisted Rune for my mage. Please... Put it in BG:EE...
  • iLexiLex Member Posts: 20
    As said before the OP means that the NAME of the weapon (and possible the history) should be a bit more unique than just '+1' or '+2'. So it is not about the stats of the weapon, it is about the NAME.
    Instead of having a short sword +1 called 'short sword +1', you'd have a short sword +1 called 'stinger'.
    This is actually not a bad idea.

    On the other hand, one could state that unless it is a particularly famous weapon, or a weapon which has the name inscribed in it (either physically or somehow magically), there is no way for the player to know the name of the weapon. So, until the player names the weapon it is just a '[weapon] +1'.
    Maybe bg:ee needs the option to name your weapons yourself.
  • niklasniklas Member Posts: 18
    As said before the OP means that the NAME of the weapon (and possible the history) should be a bit more unique than just '+1' or '+2'. So it is not about the stats of the weapon, it is about the NAME.
    Instead of having a short sword +1 called 'short sword +1', you'd have a short sword +1 called 'stinger'.
    This is actually not a bad idea.

    On the other hand, one could state that unless it is a particularly famous weapon, or a weapon which has the name inscribed in it (either physically or somehow magically), there is no way for the player to know the name of the weapon. So, until the player names the weapon it is just a '[weapon] +1'.
    Maybe bg:ee needs the option to name your weapons yourself.
    I don't think that naming the weapons yourself would be a good option, it would feel artificial, like in NWN2.
    I think that there is already enough weapons with names, and considering they are only +1 weapons, they should, imho, stay unnamed. Too much magic and arty-crafty-names will just ruin the mood.
  • RavelRavel Member Posts: 140
    I'm going to state a very unpopular opinion here. I enjoy them being uninteresting. I don't want to prance around with a glowing weapon, I can do that with 1PP.

    Let me tell you, the last thing that can happen is Baldur's Gate turning into a fantasy game with castles, instead of being a castle and knight game with fantasy elements.

    Botton line, don't make the game like Final Fantasy. Keep the weapons realistic. Save the special effects for good weapons.
    Precisely this. It's a matter of progression and diversity.
  • iLexiLex Member Posts: 20
    edited July 2012

    I don't think that naming the weapons yourself would be a good option, it would feel artificial, like in NWN2.
    I think that there is already enough weapons with names, and considering they are only +1 weapons, they should, imho, stay unnamed. Too much magic and arty-crafty-names will just ruin the mood.
    I tend to agree with you. I just mentioned the naming yourself as that would be what would happen 'in real life' in a fantasy world. Most weapons get their name given to them by (on of their) weilder(s).






    I'm going to state a very unpopular opinion here. I enjoy them being uninteresting. I don't want to prance around with a glowing weapon, I can do that with 1PP.

    Let me tell you, the last thing that can happen is Baldur's Gate turning into a fantasy game with castles, instead of being a castle and knight game with fantasy elements.

    Botton line, don't make the game like Final Fantasy. Keep the weapons realistic. Save the special effects for good weapons.
    Precisely this. It's a matter of progression and diversity.
    The OP was talking about the names of the weapons, not about the stats.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Actually, quite a large number of the +1, +2, +3 vanilla weapons and armours do have thier own flavour text and names if you right click on them.
    An example from bg1 would be the halberd +2, but if you go to the adventurers mart in bg2 you can right click on all the items, and see that even if the names are all the same, a lot of them have different histories, etc.
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