Skip to content

[Request] NPC transition from ToSC to SoA

2»

Comments

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    edited June 2012
    Good @Lunever, back to the point of the topic, so some toughs about those points:

    "Keep the stats for all NPCs" -> But use the BG2 status if this is done, or at least make another set of status reviewing each NPC.

    "keep the equipment for non-prisoners" -> This is crazy, i would be able to smuggle all BG equipment to BG2 this way. Sorry but i don't agree with this one.

    "Clear the party at the beginning of the SoA chapter" -> Of course, completly agree here.



    My add:

    1° - More BG NPCs playable in BG2, but not all.
    Important ones to be in BG2 in my view:
    Shar-Teel, Eldoth/Skie, Xzar/Montaron, Coran, Ajantis, Tiax, Alora, Xan, Garrick.

    Can't be playable:
    Faldorn and Quayle (plot reasons).

    My justify to :

    Shar-Teel - Really love her, with decent banters would be an excelent NPC and in BG2 as Angelo's daughter she could add some background not only of her past but Angelo's past and his involvment with Sarevok as well.

    Eldoth/Skie- In my view of the game the linked NPCs are an excelent source of plots, but not both NPCs shoud be alive, just as Jaheira/Kalhid and Minsc/Dynaheir, where Khalid and Dinaheir die on the transition of BG to BG2, one of them should permanent die as well. I vote to Eldoth die, as skie Silvershield give a better plot cos she has a large ground to grow up in maturity, belongs to baldur's gate nobility and her father is a proeminent figure and don't stay dead by D&D lore.

    Xzar/Montaron - Pretty much same as above, just have to create reasons so only one can be revived.

    Coran - Nice archer and overpowered stats (20 dex) balanced by the time we can get him.

    Ajantis - You met him at the Firkgaak trap, why we don't revive him (or all the pallys there) after the battle is just beiond me. All bodies there, all in recent death... some will say is a plot death therefore original content, but revive him is not change the original content but extend it.

    Tiax/Alora - Both NPCs that you only get in the end of BG, if we could recruit them in BG2, wait to get them in BG would be more worthwhile.

    Xan - I like him, he's unlike any other NPC in the entire game in personality matter, and has a moonblade, so... why, he's a character that need a deeper develop, for this i name him.

    Garric - Really don't like him, but is an accetable choice for BG2 as he has some banters in the door of the Radiant Heart, trying to flirt with one of the female paladins there (and miserably falling).

    2° - More items from BG to BG IN QUESTS

    I already made this in another topic but here we are agin.

    Instead of keep a bunch of items from BG in BG2 or lose forever everything, the character should be able to find more items from BG during BG2 game play, preferable the unique ones, but ONLY if main char have those items in the transition to BG2.

    - Cloak of Balduran
    - Drizzt Do'Urden swords (so he will have a reason to be pissed of with main char when both meet agin in BG2).
    - Spiderbane
    - Belt of gender (if the player keep it since the area south of friendly arm inn, some banters about the use of this item should be added also, and could be a temporary cure for edwin problem with the Netherscroll)
    - Algernon's Cloak
    - Kiel's items
    - Balduran Bucher knife (and a quest to use it)

    None are overpowerfull items (except Drizzt swords) and the moments to get them could be controled, so no overpowered item on early game.

    Suggestions:

    - Belt of Gender: somewhere in irenicus dungeon.
    - Spiderbane: With Gracen, the second shadow thieves quest mission (only find if sided with the shadow thieve).
    - Algeron's Cloak: inside bodhi lair if you sided with her, as a hint of the truth about Bodhi
    - Kiel's items: on the Spell Hold director's office (that irenicus was using after he take over Spell Hold)
    - Drizzt Do'Urden Swords, with Matron mother Arludance (as a gift to seal the alliance betwen the drow and Irenicus, that would surelly make a drow work with a surfacer).
    - Balduran Bucher Knife: Dunno. Anyone feel free to suggest a place (and a quest if want).
  • LuneverLunever Member Posts: 307
    In BG2 Xzar ist already an NPC giving you the quest to search for the missing Montaron. So to have either in your party is nonsense.
    Coran and Safana appear as a pair in Tehtyr and Safana tries to mug you. So no point in having them in the party.
    Faldorn is an antagonist in the Druid's Grove.
    Tiax is a prisoner in spellhold.
    You meet Edwin as a joinable NPC in the important thieves guild plot anyway.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    @Lunaever

    Prescisely because Xzar and Montaron already appear in a quest on BG2, develp a continuation, where one or other with a good justify get a ressurection, would be nice
    The Xzar NPC mod in fact already give a way, by saying that Xzar foresaw the trap and used a clone, that i believe to be a mislead or simulacrum spell, so he fooled the harper assassin, but not even need to be Xzar to survive, as BG2 has a huge lack of evil thieves.

    Coran and Safana if you explored all the possibilites on the banter did not had a previous agreement, as Safana fooled Coran to bring main char to the trap. Besides, he's not even a plot kill, as Lanfear only tries to kill him after the banters.

    Faldorn AS I SAID is one of the unplayable characters, NOT ONLY for she be one of the main char antagonists, but in reason of the shadow druid way of think. Sarevok was a HUGE antagonist, no?

    About Tiax, yes he is a prisoner in spellhold... so?

    I didn't spoke about Edwin in my previous post, so i don't understand what you are contesting in this part.
  • LuneverLunever Member Posts: 307
    Oh, I just listed Faldorn and Edwin to make the list complete, no criticism meant.
    Well, sure changes like the ones you suggest could be made, but my understanding is, that this project is meant to change only a minimum of content, so I'm rather reluctant to suggest such changes, though I wouldn't mind them.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    I say they should keep stats but lose equipment.
    I think Edwin should be able to retain only his staff and his robes. That would provide an opportunity to at least import the robes of evil alignment (which would help to balance the game more for the evil groups since they get shafted by having higher prices/less NPC's). Same with Xzar. However, I think allowing any more than that would it unfair since you could use either conceivable as a way of bringing items into BG2.

    @kamuizin

    I think algeron's cloak should stay in BG1, as its ability to charm people/monsters if they don't make a save vs. breath save was kind of cheap. I would only keep it in BG1 because it is only available through pickpocketing (apart from killing him), and I think being able to pickpocket some powerful items would be an interesting element to keep in the game. Plus, honestly since these places are far apart I don't see a need for there to be all these items that just happened to show up in Athkatla. I mean, depending on the party responsible for capturing you isn't it reasonable to expect that the party could have sold your items near baldur's gate?
    lolien
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    By the game plot, i believe the party was captured near Amn in the Peak montains, and anyway, they had to deliver the main char to Irenicus in the city, on the middle of the city of coin, the best place to trade, buy and sell... so...
  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    I say they should keep stats but lose equipment.
    Keep stats, lose equipment, definitely agree. Keeping equipment seems unnecessary to me and also opens up possibilities for cheese (putting certain equipment on NPCs that you want for yourself, etc). Even barring the cheese, it just doesn't seem necessary at all, there are plenty of items in BG2.
    I think Edwin should be able to retain only his staff and his robes. That would provide an opportunity to at least import the robes of evil alignment (which would help to balance the game more for the evil groups since they get shafted by having higher prices/less NPC's).
    I disagree with this. If there is a need to balance the game for the sake of evil parties getting shafted, this is not the way to go about it, allowing one or two specific characters to keep there equipment seems unwise. Furthermore, Edwin is compensation for evil parties, he's evil and potentially the best joinable mage in the BG games due to his INT, Viconia is evil and a great cleric (not to mention her magic resistance), as well as Korgan who, if I recall correctly, has 18/77 STR and 19 CON and is evil. Additionally, once ToB starts, you can get Sarevok, who is evil and has awesome stats. Apart from these there are several neutral possibilities too: Cernd, Haer'Dalis, Jaheira, Jan, and Yoshimo...
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    The problem with neutral characters is that they leave when your rep hit 2-, and this is stupid i think, cos if i get 19+ they don't. They're neutral or near neutral? Dafuq? They should leave in both cases or in neither.

    Another thing ridiculous is the villan makeup of prices... a robe of vecna for 250.000 gold with rep 1? I have no shame in say that i cluaconsole tons of gold when i roleplay evil characters to compensate the extra charge and try to get near the original price (i use a rep 10 as base for this).

    Why someone would try to cheat a person (charging 10x the item price), if that person can kill him just for don't like of his face? It's worst, cos i sense that pickpocket stores function better with high rep (in saradush if you try to steal the mage with rep 1, even with 265 in pickpocket 90% of times he will catch you).

    But there i go with my uprising against the prejudice to evil characters... so let's just not poke this wasp nest.
  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    @kamuizin I completely agree with you, the store prices and neutral characters leaving at 2 rep is ridiculous. I would love to see some of these things reworked in BG:EE (perhaps a new discussion should be started for them), I wasn't saying that evil parties don't get shafted, just that I don't think they get shafted by not having good NPCs, because some of the best NPCs are evil. Also, I was saying that item carry-over isn't the way to fix the problem. The way to fix it is (as far as I can tell) is to directly fix the ridiculous effect rep has on store prices and make neutral characters leaving consistent to high and low rep...
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    edited June 2012
    @Jaysl659, the problem with evil party in BG is:

    If your main char is not an evil thief, you are FORCED to have a good or neutral thief in the party, and of course both alignments will leave the party if you reach 2- rep, you can dual sarevok to thief in ToB (Blehhh), but until you reach ToB...

    Jan Jansen is the most near evil character along the neutral ones, yet he too leave (with a nosense excuse, not a true disappointment with the party) if we hit 2- rep, and he's a smuggler and a wanted criminal... whatever...

    For example atm i'm roleplaying a evil group, of course valen mod is installed, if not her, i would have to get another evil thief mod, otherwise is outrageous try to roleplay an evil group in BG2 with a goody goody whining and boring me all the way along.
  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    edited June 2012
    @kamuizin you make a good point. A thief really is necessary, frankly I think Jan could be neutral evil, as he is a thief and a wanted criminal, and so has the potential to fit that alignment. I guess there really should be a few more options for evil NPCs (at least a single evil thief, as it really makes the most sense to have an evil thief somewhere that could join you), or at least not have neutral ones leave at low rep, though this does seem like it wouldn't really fix the problem as you should be able to have an entirely evil party.
    Post edited by ElectricMonk on
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @jaysl659

    What? In no way is Jansen Neutral Evil. Yeah he's a Thief, but evil?
    tenaLunever
  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    @Tanthalas well in a way neutral evil=self serving... yeah it's a stretch it's just that seeing as there are no evil thieves in the game and thieves seem like they would be the best candidates for evil (and particularly neutral evil) in that their craft generally entails profiting off the loss of others, it seems like less of a stretch than some others. But you're right, his personality doesn't really fit evil, I guess I was just trying to find a way that a current thief could possibly be a candidate for an evil alignment. Jan is a blatant criminal after all, even if it is just as a black market salesman.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    The way I always understood it, Neutral looks out for itself, Evil looks out for itself while crushing everyone else down. Jan isn't intentionally malicious, not averse to charity nor intent on profit at the cost of anyone or anything. He's completely oblivious to the rest of the world, following only his whims and impulses. Hell, even his reason for joining the PC isn't far from "Sounds fun to do". Archtypical Chaotic Neutral to me.

    I did always wonder why, in the giant mix of NPC mods, there was never an evil thief. I made a rough draft of a character a few years ago (before I found out that actually coding him made my brain leak out of my ears) who was an evil assassin (with the possibility to dualling to Fighter) who joined the Bhaalspawn because he was the heir of the True God of Murder.
    Kind of surprised people didn't fill that void.
    tena
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I actually checked BG2, and what Imoen says is that when the fighting started her cell was damaged and she escaped.
  • ScotGaymerScotGaymer Member Posts: 526
    I wonder if it is possible for BG2:EE if they can't transition party members over then could they make what party members are "present" dependant on your alignment?

    Good characters have Minsc & Jaheira; Neutral characters have Kivan and Branwen; and Evil characters Shar-Teel and Xzar. And just adjust who "died" in the "party" accordingly.
    Good deaths - Khalid & Dynaheir. Neutral deaths - Eldoth & Skie maybe. Evil deaths - Kagain & Montaron.

    Obviously i'd prefer a dynamic approach to it but hey.
    tena
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    @Fitscotgaymer, i already though about this bro, but the problem is the damn original content, like you i see it as original inconsistency or original mistake, but if they're going to be able to change this or not will be based on the contract betwen Beamdog and the other companies that hold rights in BG copyrights.
  • ScotGaymerScotGaymer Member Posts: 526
    I suppose.

    But for the plot the only one that matters is Imoen, so she is the only one that needs to be there. And they could have easily picked her up seperately from your party.

    Pain in the backside it is lol.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Jaheira and Minsc are also important for the plot, they help set up how evil Irenicus is due to how he was responsible for the deaths of Dynaheir and Khalid.

    Replacing them with Eldoth and Skie or Kagain and Montaron would never be the same thing because Kivan (he's actually good not neutral) Branwen, Shar-Teel and Xzar wouldn't care as much as Minsc and Jaheira.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited July 2012
    Left Lunever's discussion as the base since it seemed to be more explicit about the problem.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    Jaheira and Minsc are also important for the plot, they help set up how evil Irenicus is due to how he was responsible for the deaths of Dynaheir and Khalid.
    Replacing them with Eldoth and Skie or Kagain and Montaron would never be the same thing because Kivan (he's actually good not neutral) Branwen, Shar-Teel and Xzar wouldn't care as much as Minsc and Jaheira.
    Of course, an Evil protagonist wouldn't care if Irenicus were evil or not. He'd peak his ears at "Unlocking your power" and carve a bloody swath through BG2 to have it done (and then his soul gets stolen, ha-ha!< /Nelson>)

    Our dear development team can't do it, but I wouldn't mind a mod where an Evil character starts with Xzar and Kagain in the cages (with Montaron and Shar-teel having dissappeared). Having Shar-teel be broken and battered in the place of Khalid should demonstrate Irenicus' power quite well, I think.
  • zeozzeoz Member Posts: 3
    It's absurd, Imoen's personality, tastes and experiences influence her choice be wizard as was Gorion.
  • dandydandy Member Posts: 35
    The way I see it, it's not necessary to have any of the NPCs die, except Khalid for the Jaheira romance (not sure why they decided to kill of Dynaheir)
    If I end the game with none of the BGII dungeon characters, I'd like to keep my party and move the others to appear elsewhere in the game (I'd honestly even be okay with keeping Khalid and Dynaheir alive, since I NEVER romance Jaheira, but that's just personally)

    Of course Imoen would still be there, but because Irenicus would capture her anyway, and you're not forced to take any party members out of the dungeon (you can ask them to meet you in Athkatla)

    All NPCs from BGI, the way I see it, can be made playable
    There are several mods that do this already (though not all are particularly good)

    some possibilities:

    Quayle - no longer has any desire to be at the circus after the events that happen there

    Tiax - survives spellhold and offers to join you

    Safana/Coran - Coran is not a plot death and could join. Safana could decide to join you after being betrayed

    Khalid - if not part of the party at BGI end game, he and Jaheira come looking for you, maybe he dies in transit, maybe he doesn't and Jaheira becomes non-romancable (or take the novels approach and start macking on her anyway, to Khalid's displeasure, maybe a point where you have to choose between them and her, keeping her and losing/killing Khalid or keeping them both and ending it between you and her)

    Dynaheir - if not part of the end party, she and Minsc come looking for you

    Kagain - got bored of whatever he was doing in the Sword Coast (fits his character), figured he'd look for you

    Skie/Eldoth - I don't know much about Skie, but I figure something could happen with her and Eldoth, causing them both to flea Baldur's Gate. Could be that they're still together, they're separated (causing you to maybe have to choose between them, or have both for some entertaining interactions, maybe ending in one leaving/them fighting)

    Yeslick - What reason does he really have to stay on the Sword Coast? Just decided to come looking for you

    Faldorn - Maybe instead of killing her, you could beat her down, then force her to surrender and join you, or maybe you could even join her (either way, Cernd/Jaheira may not be happy)

    Alora - Again,, barely played her, but it seems like she's the type to just decide to take an adventure to a new place, especially if you're there

    Kivan - Heard Tazok is alive again. Need more even be said? Maybe that's far fetched, how would he hear about that? He's not very friendly or good at making friends, maybe he figured you're the only one who can stand him, or maybe he just decided his life doesn't have much meaning unless he's doing something, like helping you.

    Garrick - After failing to woo Lady Irlana (?) you can find him drunk in a tavern or somesuch, and convince him to join you again

    Branwen - Still owes you for saving her? Not really sure on this one

    Xan - Sent by his order to keep an eye on you, knowing how dangerous you could potentially be

    Xzar/Montaron - Clones/simulacrum/doppleganger for Xzar, you find Montarons body, maybe you could resurrect him (there is nothing on the body suggesting this cannot be done)

    Shar-Teel - After having to kill her father (or her fathers death or whatever) she just wanted to get away from the Sword Coast, and decided to come find you

    Ajantis - Why not just resurrect him after the battle?

    Honestly, they could put 0 lore into it and it'd still be fine. Look at Edwin and Viconia and the other BGI NPCs (with the exception of Tiax), they really have no reason for being there, and Quayle actually goes against logic (how could he be with the circus so long if he was in Baldur's Gate not long ago...)

    Bringing all the NPCs to BGII would also solve the lack of party members for each alignment, and give you casters/fighters/thieves of every alignment, and give you choices, too

    As for their equipment staying the same, I figure they could do the same deal they did in ToB, and give them level appropriate gear when you meet them (why would they have your super special awesome items if they weren't in your party?)

    To keep up continuity, if they died in your BGI game or you didn't meet them, slight changes could be made (they just don't show up because of being dead, or you're just not all buddy buddy if you didn't meet them)

    As for the Imoen issue, her extreme anger, in addition to Jon's experiments, could lead to her just bursting out some energy (since she has the natural ability to be a mage)
    After rescuing her from Spellhold, you could converse with her about her power, and she could then dua to mage if you desire (assuming she wasn't already)

    stats for all characters should stay consistent, either with their BGI or BGII stats

    Unfortunately, I believe none of this is within their ability to do, but it's always and idea for modders?

    Just as a side note, I really hope they make some new NPCs as a barbarian, a monk, a sorcerer, and a Half Orc, since none of these are present in the series (as the classes did not exist in BGI)
Sign In or Register to comment.