I disagree, the damage is already figured for those kind of darts, they do comparable damage to a dagger, 1d4 or and arrow 1d6, a game dart used on a dart board would probably have a max damage of 1, its barely more then a needle.
There are +3 returning darts, daggers and axes in bg2, there is a bow with unlimited +3 ammo. Adding str bonus would make the damage look like this.
Darts would deal 16-18 damage with 6 attacks per round, average damage of 102.
Daggers would deal 16-19 damage with 5 attacks per round, average damage of 88.
Axe would deal 16-21 damage with 4 attacks per round, average damage of 74.
Bows would deal 9-14 damage with 5 attacks per round, average damage of 58.
Edit: The bow would do 6-11 damage with an average of 43 damage if what people are saying in the other thread is true and magical arrows will not increase damage with bows.
Lets also compare to a melee weapons for the sake of argument.
Two hand sword would deal 11-25 damage with 4 attacks per round, average damage of 82.
I based all these damage totals on a 19 str, easily obtainable by anyone, either through a heavy str build character, or a girdle of hill giant str available cheaply and early in BG2, right when you walk out of Irenicus's dungeon.
I think the numbers speak for themselves, there is a reason you can type 2nd edition dart master and still see tons of threads with DM's and players complaining about people abusing darts in 2nd edition, its the same reason why 3e reduced the base attacks of all weapons to 1, and gave a way for str or dex bonus to be applied to damage for all of them.
@Oxford_Guy , it depended on the location - next to the high hedge they used throwing knives , at ulcaster they used darts , next to bassilus they used crossbows and in other locations they used composite longbows.
Just checked the 2nd Edition Advanced D&D Players Handbook. It said that str damage bonus applies to all weapon types, even missile, however the missile weapon must be designed to take advatage of a users str (I'm guessing composite long bows). Crossbows never get the bonus.
That's contrary to something else I read. I will have to do more research.
Fair enough. Though isn't 5 the maximum allowed number of attacks per round in Baldurs Gate? (which would put its average damage according to your numbers at roughly 85).
In any case you may be right.
I don't play fighters generally, so the following math could be (beyond being improperly written up from a technical standpoint) horribly off.
Without the strength damage the best darts in game, if used by a warrior under BGEE's revised grand mastery (old BG1), would do 9- 11 (1d3 +3, +5 for grand mastery) x 5 = 40 average damage (if I'm not mistaken)
Throwing daggers would be 9-12 ( 1d4 +3, +5 for grand mastery) x 4 = 42 average
But non-ranged daggers in shadows of amn could do 1d4 +4 (5-8) +5 (grand mastery damage) ( so now 10-13) + 14 (maximum strength damage) ( so now 24 - 27) x4 = 102 average
But non-ranged daggers in ToB could do 1d4 +5 (6-9) +5 (grand mastery damage) ( so now 11-14) + 14 (maximum strength damage) ( so now 25 - 28) x4 = 106 average.
I am a little confused on how you got your 11-25 two handed damage. With Lilarcor (not the best two handed sword in shadows of amn but available early in game) is 1d10 +3, which would be before other bonuses 4-13 damage. Plus grand mastery to make it 9 - 18 damage + maximum strength bonus of 14 making it 23 - 32 damage. x4 would mean an average of 110 damage.
I disagree, the damage is already figured for those kind of darts, they do comparable damage to a dagger, 1d4 or and arrow 1d6, a game dart used on a dart board would probably have a max damage of 1, its barely more then a needle.
There are +3 returning darts, daggers and axes in bg2, there is a bow with unlimited +3 ammo. Adding str bonus would make the damage look like this.
Darts would deal 16-18 damage with 6 attacks per round, average damage of 102.
Daggers would deal 16-19 damage with 5 attacks per round, average damage of 88.
Axe would deal 16-21 damage with 4 attacks per round, average damage of 74.
Bows would deal 9-14 damage with 5 attacks per round, average damage of 58.
Lets also compare to a melee weapons for the sake of argument.
Two hand sword would deal 11-25 damage with 4 attacks per round, average damage of 82.
I think the numbers speak for themselves, there is a reason you can type 2nd edition dart master and still see tons of threads with DM's and players complaining about people abusing darts in 2nd edition, its the same reason why 3e reduced the base attacks of all weapons to 1, and gave a way for str or dex bonus to be applied to damage for all of them.
However you are not looking at the bonus damage that elemental arrows add, from memory there are no elemental darts. And I am fairly sure crossbows with darts of lightning are pretty high up there in damage. Not to mention arrows of detonation, piercing or even acid (2d6 acid damage)
I just want the game to reflect BG Original as well as the PHB. Also, the maximum attacks per round is only 5.
Look at all this in perspective then tell me whether it is balanced currently with darts doing only 1-3 damage.
I just used a +3 two handed weapon as a fair comparison, the best weapon available in the game is not how the game should be balanced, the game needs to be balanced at its base, if good magic weapons are not available that is the fault of the gm, in this case the game, at not providing them.
@elminster 60 Average damage for dart without the str modifier, 50 if attacks max at 5, 53 for daggers.
@bigdogchris you are correct that in pnp you could get a bow that took advantage of your str bonus, but that is not available in BG and BG2, there are also people saying that the magical arrows only determine what you are going to be able to hit and don't add to damage, I am hoping they are incorrect.
@Horatio I was using items that would be readily available throughout the campaign, you don't have a limitless supply of magical ammo, though both daggers and darts have wounding variants which do very good damage as well in limited supply.
Yes, melee does significantly more damage then ranged if you take the str damage away, some would say that's balanced since ranged is safer damage available from a distance, even if you disagree that is not a good reason to make bows worthless. Unless you feel all ranged weapons including bows should apply full str bonus? Honestly though, a guy throwing six inch darts should be doing less damage to his opponents then a guy with daggers, who should to less then throwing axes, who should do less then bows, man didn't invent bows and start using them for kicks, we did it because they where superior.
Honestly I think its all silly, strength in reality has very little to do with how much damage a weapon can inflict outside of being strong enough to properly handle the weapon, any increase in the amount of trauma a weapon can cause beyond that is insignificant with increased strength.
Pro baseball pitcher's are not muscle bound giants, the vast majority of them are tall and lanky.
A pro body builder could smack you in the face with a pillow repeatedly and never cause any serious damage, but you wouldn't survive many blows to the head from a skinny twelve year old wielding a baseball bat.
Numerous tests have been done on many athletes and fighters, did you know that Bruce Lee punched significantly harder then Mike Tyson when they where both in their prime, its because while strength certainly increases the ability to hit harder, there is a lot more to it then that.
How hard an object hits is based on its kinetic energy when striking, this is based on many factors, but primarily its the speed at which the object is moving at, the amount of area covered when it makes contact with its target, and how hard the object and its target are. While strength is beneficial in increases striking speed, it's biggest benefit is handling the object easily enough to put maximum speed on it, once the threshold of strength needed to handle an object easily is reached, the added benefits from more strength drop tremendously.
darts are already awesome enough as it is... a well specced archer ranger could probably (too lazy to do the math) outdamage the best bows in BG1, or at least come close.
hell, in BG2 with the addition of returning dart +3, my favored (even if just because it amused me) tactic against enemy mages was to set Edwin on them with darts - 3 interrupts per round, and the guy could strip images/skins in seconds, it was downright ridiculous.
It occurs to me that is the reason I prefer roll and keep systems in rpg's. If you have a weapon that does 3 dice of damage, it can never do more then 3 dice of damage, the dice you roll is based on str. So if you had a 1 str you would only roll and keep 1 die, if you had a 10 str you would roll 10 and keep 3 dice of your choosing, usually the best I would imagine, str makes you hit harder in this system but it doesn't change the maximum potential of the weapon.
I just used a +3 two handed weapon as a fair comparison, the best weapon available in the game is not how the game should be balanced, the game needs to be balanced at its base, if good magic weapons are not available that is the fault of the gm, in this case the game, at not providing them.
@elminster 60 Average damage for dart without the str modifier, 50 if attacks max at 5, 53 for daggers.
@bigdogchris you are correct that in pnp you could get a bow that took advantage of your str bonus, but that is not available in BG and BG2, there are also people saying that the magical arrows only determine what you are going to be able to hit and don't add to damage, I am hoping they are incorrect.
@Horatio I was using items that would be readily available throughout the campaign, you don't have a limitless supply of magical ammo, though both daggers and darts have wounding variants which do very good damage as well in limited supply.
Yes, melee does significantly more damage then ranged if you take the str damage away, some would say that's balanced since ranged is safer damage available from a distance, even if you disagree that is not a good reason to make bows worthless. Unless you feel all ranged weapons including bows should apply full str bonus? Honestly though, a guy throwing six inch darts should be doing less damage to his opponents then a guy with daggers, who should to less then throwing axes, who should do less then bows, man didn't invent bows and start using them for kicks, we did it because they where superior.
Honestly I think its all silly, strength in reality has very little to do with how much damage a weapon can inflict outside of being strong enough to properly handle the weapon, any increase in the amount of trauma a weapon can cause beyond that is insignificant with increased strength.
Pro baseball pitcher's are not muscle bound giants, the vast majority of them are tall and lanky.
A pro body builder could smack you in the face with a pillow repeatedly and never cause any serious damage, but you wouldn't survive many blows to the head from a skinny twelve year old wielding a baseball bat.
Numerous tests have been done on many athletes and fighters, did you know that Bruce Lee punched significantly harder then Mike Tyson when they where both in their prime, its because while strength certainly increases the ability to hit harder, there is a lot more to it then that.
How hard an object hits is based on its kinetic energy when striking, this is based on many factors, but primarily its the speed at which the object is moving at, the amount of area covered when it makes contact with its target, and how hard the object and its target are. While strength is beneficial in increases striking speed, it's biggest benefit is handling the object easily enough to put maximum speed on it, once the threshold of strength needed to handle an object easily is reached, the added benefits from more strength drop tremendously.
Allrighty,
Throwing Harder
February 1, 2011 By nsadmin
I talk with a lot of high school and college baseball players. One of the questions I get all the time is what can be done to throw harder. Most often this is from pitchers, but many times it comes from position players as well. Here is a list of things that factor into your throwing velocity.
1. Arm swing mechanics. Very simply this means what your throwing arm does from the moment you take the ball out of the glove until you let it go. No matter how perfect the rest of your mechanics are, how much long toss or working out you do, if you don’t have a smooth, proper, flowing arm swing, you will loose a chance to throw at your maximum velocity. If you youtube pitching or throwing mechanics for guys like Mariano Rivera, Tim Linecum, you will see what the proper arm swing should be. So first and foremost, make this your focus.
This is mastery ^
2. Use it or lose it. I’ll never forget my first year in coaching at Nova Southeastern University in Florida. We had two kids on the team from the Dominican, amazing defensive players. What they did, EVERY DAY was throwing the living heck out of the ball. They said “you want to throw ball hard, you throw ball hard. you want to throw ball far, you throw ball far.” Let’s face it, you want to have a great bench press, you bench press. You want to run a mile fast, you run the mile a lot. Sometimes there are no gimmicks, it is just doing what you are trying to do on a regular basis.
3. Closed to open. Power in pretty much every sport (golf, tennis, hockey, hitting, kicking, boxing, etc) comes from going from a closed body position to an open one. So the more you can stay closed as your prepare to release, the more you will have to fire through and unleash on the ball.
4. Strength. I like to think of it this way. The power to throw comes from the ground/earth. Earth is connected to your feet, feet to your legs, legs to your hips, hips to your core, core to your arms. So you need to be able to build and hold power in these body parts. You certainly know when you have an injury to any of those areas how hard it is to throw. So suffice it to say, the stronger you are throughout your body, the harder you will be able to throw.
This is strength ^
5. Flexibility. Yoga is a growing trend in every sport. How many big baseball players are there? A few, but very few that really pump the ball on the mound or throw it hard across the diamond or from the outfield. The reason is you have to be flexible. You should stretch after every workout and you should work on your flexibility in the same way you do other part of your game. Coach Mazzoni is the Pitching Coach at Sacred Heart University. Last year Mike Drowne, was drafted in the 28th Round by the LA Dodgers. Mike is a 5’9, 175 pound lefty who threw 88-90 off the mound and 91-93 from the outfield.
Anyhow, the point is moot as the game should stick to the rules and provide strength damage to all thrown weapons. This is the main point that I am trying to bring across.
My sister can throw a dart hard enough to penetrate the board, you could say she has the strength enough to handle the dart. I have the strength to bury it right up to the handle and often crack the board. You cannot say that strength does not have a substantial impact on the velocity of a projectile.
" The distance that a competitor can throw a projectile depends upon the strength and technique of the athlete as well as the aerodynamics of the object projected. The speed of the object before release, the angle at which it is released, and the ability to maximize the aerodynamic features of the projectile all contribute to the distance between the release and landing positions. Rotation of a javelin or discus in flight produces extra lift which prolongs flight and therefore results in longer distances.
In this consideration of projectile motion we will treat all thrown objects as small point masses and will ignore the effects of the air through which the projectile is travelling. The horizontal distance travelled by a fired or thrown object is called the range and we will show how this can be determined using the equations of motion. " http://www.absorblearning.com/advancedphysics/demo/units/010105.html
Further evidence of the substantial effect of strength on thrown projecticles can be seen in this study below. Here I have pasted the conclusions.
X. CONCLUSIONS When an object of mass m is thrown by hand, the tangential force acting on the object is given by F!ma, where a is its tangential acceleration. If m is much smaller than the mass of the hand, then a will be independent of m and will be limited only by the moment of inertia of the hand and forearm and by the forces that can be developed by the muscles involved in throwing. Under these conditions, F will be directly proportional to m. If m is comparable to or larger than the mass of the hand, then a will decrease as m increases due to the increased inertia at the end of the forearm. If one assumes that the torque applied to the various arm segments is unaffected by an increase in m, then one can use a simple one or two segment model of the arm to estimate the change in F as a function of m. Experimentally, it was found that the muscle torque acting on the forearm was almost independent of the thrown mass, and that the total kinetic energy of the hand, forearm, and mass in the hand was essentially independent of the mass of the thrown object. Throwing can therefore be regarded for physics teaching purposes as a relatively straightforward problem in undergraduate mechanics, without being too concerned about subtle or unfamiliar biomechanical or physiological effects.
As you can see from this, it is clear that studies HAVE shown that strength is one of the primary factors which influence the velocity and therefore the impact of thrown projectiles, If it is not enough that the vanilla game had strength bonuses for thrown weapons, then hopefully facts can influence this.
In regards to limited supplies of arrows, I have never run out of frost or fire arrows, running low? hit up peldvale for some frost arrows, buy acid, fire and several others from Thanantyr, and the smithy in Beregost. Show me darts that have elemental damages or anything apart from wounding ( which does not work on some of the toughest enemies ) or stunning ( which also does not work on the majority of enemies you would need them for ). There are in fact only 3 types of dart, the +1 variant, stunning and wounding. This means that the bow, even if not recieving a strength bonus recieves far greater boon in its flexibility. There are 10 different types of magical arrow in Baldur's Gate vanilla. The flexibility this allows is far stronger than str damage to darts and daggers. Need a fireball? Arrows of detonation. Pesky mage? Arrows of dispelling. Need damage? Arrows of Acid ( 2-7 + 2-12 damage not including masteries or bow damage.
Sorry about wall of text, but I needed to get my point across.
Honestly I think its all silly, strength in reality has very little to do with how much damage a weapon can inflict outside of being strong enough to properly handle the weapon, any increase in the amount of trauma a weapon can cause beyond that is insignificant with increased strength.
A pro body builder could smack you in the face with a pillow repeatedly and never cause any serious damage, but you wouldn't survive many blows to the head from a skinny twelve year old wielding a baseball bat.
That's because you're comparing an object much softer than the body that spreads impact to an object about as hard as the body that focuses impact. Compare if they both punched you with their fists. Or compare both of them using a sledgehammer to break a brick wall down. A twelve year old has a weapon with the capacity to break the target (be it fist vs body or sledgehammer vs wall), but not the strength to do so in an effective manner.
Numerous tests have been done on many athletes and fighters, did you know that Bruce Lee punched significantly harder then Mike Tyson when they where both in their prime, its because while strength certainly increases the ability to hit harder, there is a lot more to it then that.
You have an actual source on this that isn't just someone's internet opinion? Topics like these are commonly debated, but for all I've seen the only thing that's been verified is that boxers tend to punch a fair bit harder than martial art practicioners.
Now that BGEE is out, could someone confirm which missile weapons actually do/don't have strength damage bonus applied to them?
i.e. do slings? do throwing axes? do throwing daggers? do darts?
It doesn't help that what is displayed on the character record is often bugged and wrong, I think you actually need to look at what's happening in-game to work out what's going on
Now that BGEE is out, could someone confirm which missile weapons actually do/don't have strength damage bonus applied to them?
i.e. do slings? do throwing axes? do throwing daggers? do darts?
It doesn't help that what is displayed on the character record is often bugged and wrong, I think you actually need to look at what's happening in-game to work out what's going on
BTW for what it's worth (I don't know if the character sheet is now displaying the correct information), but when I equip Dorn (who should get +7 strength damage if this bonus is applied) with the the following weapons, the character sheet indicates the following damage:
Of the above it looks like *only* slings are getting the strength damage bonus applied. Is this correct? If so the manual is definitely wrong about throwing daggers and axes, but I think this has already been reported, onthe other hand, if the strength bonus for slings is correct, this *should* be indicated in the manual...
BTW is it intended that throwing knives and axes don't give strength damage (in which case the manual needs updating) or is it a bug? Should slings really give a strength damage bonus?
Here's how it's supposed to work. BG1 was almost correct but flubbed on bows a little.
Crossbows: NO Str bonus. Gains magic enhancement to hit/damage + innate damage bonus.
Bows: Gains str bonus (short/long (max of +2), Composite (any)), gains magic enhancement to hit. (In BG1 all bows got any str and applied their enhancement to damage as well as hit)
Thrown (Darts, Daggers, Axes): Any str bonus, magic enhancement to hit/damage.
Slings: Any strength bonus, enhancement only applies to hit.
Bows: Gains str bonus (short/long (max of +2), Composite (any)), gains magic enhancement to hit. (In BG1 all bows got any str and applied their enhancement to damage as well as hit)
I don't think bows got bonus damage from strength in BG1. There may have been one or 2 that did, but only because they were bugged.
Based on a thread I read a while back, I was under the impression that for BG:EE, the only ranged weapons that would gain str bonus damage would be throwing axes. Based on what I've read since it came out, it seems that only slings are getting str bonuses.
Bows: Gains str bonus (short/long (max of +2), Composite (any)), gains magic enhancement to hit. (In BG1 all bows got any str and applied their enhancement to damage as well as hit)
I don't think bows got bonus damage from strength in BG1. There may have been one or 2 that did, but only because they were bugged.
Based on a thread I read a while back, I was under the impression that for BG:EE, the only ranged weapons that would gain str bonus damage would be throwing axes. Based on what I've read since it came out, it seems that only slings are getting str bonuses.
Win for halfling fighters with the girdle of strength on I guess?
Bows: Gains str bonus (short/long (max of +2), Composite (any)), gains magic enhancement to hit. (In BG1 all bows got any str and applied their enhancement to damage as well as hit)
I don't think bows got bonus damage from strength in BG1. There may have been one or 2 that did, but only because they were bugged.
Based on a thread I read a while back, I was under the impression that for BG:EE, the only ranged weapons that would gain str bonus damage would be throwing axes. Based on what I've read since it came out, it seems that only slings are getting str bonuses.
Win for halfling fighters with the girdle of strength on I guess?
Well Montaron is certainly looking a better bet...
I'm surprised the fact that slings seem to be the only ranged weapon to benefit from a Strength damage bonus hasn't been more widely discussed, seems quite an odd choice - why not throwing axes too? I guess for daggers arguably it's starting to verge towards being OP, as they get 2 APR, and certainly so for darts with 3 APR, though .
Throwing axes might also be a balance consideration, considering they're a loophole getting around restrictions on missile weapon use for some kits, but more likely it's just an oversight.
Throwing axes might also be a balance consideration, considering they're a loophole getting around restrictions on missile weapon use for some kits, but more likely it's just an oversight.
Yes it's possible this might have been done for balance reasons, as the Kits that aren't meant to use missile weapons weren't in the original BG1, but the actual result is that throwing axes have been nerfed for *all* classes now, which is a shame. I used to give the ogre gloves to Kaigan and he was awesome with throwing axes.
All they have to do is slap a Not-usable by Kensai, Cavalier on them....not like they have to nerf several weapons from what they're SUPPOSED to do, just because someone was lazy and forgot to tag a few ranged weapons with not-usable.
There's already checks and balances for darts in this game...barely any special darts at all, and their stack sizes, even buffed, result in you burning through ammo at an incredible rate. Bows and even crossbows get better options ammo-wise (and give me darts of detonation and dispelling, then we'll talk), and in BG2 throwing daggers and axes get several nice additions as well. The best dart in the game is the +3 returning one...the only one in existence, the next closest are all +1 or not magical at all (except for the 5 +5 per day the cloak of the stars can make, that disappear on rest)
I'd like throwing axes and daggers to get strength damage bonus but not darts (too light to benefit IMHO and OP with 3 APR). I don't understand why slings get the strength bonus but not axes or daggers either.
Thank you near infinity for allowing me to fix a game that the developers wouldnt
This. I gave darts the strength bonus and also allowed ranged weapons to gain bonus attacks per round. I don't think it really overpowers darts, instead it just makes them more powerful in the early game for high str characters. Later, you will be able to get 4 or 5 attacks per round with every weapon if you are a fighter. Furthermore, if you are a warrior and you dump specialization points into darts then you can't really tank because of ranged against melee penalties and you can't get style bonuses. It makes high strength non fighters less useless. Then there are the other issues like constantly running out of darts.
What I ended up doing with the other weapons balanced ranged weapons nicely against each other. Xbows get bonus attacks but not STR bonus, and Composite Bows get Str bonus (but lost their native +2 and only require 16 str). Shortbows are slightly gimped until BG2 with the Gessen bow, at which point they are also balanced. Slings are the only launcher that get both Str bonus and bonus attacks, and the thrown weapons all get both. Xbows and Bows keep up because of their super ammo (Arrows of detonation are around but hard to find in BG2, and lightning bolts are in BGEE apparently... at least in the files)
This puts all of them at around 40 dam per round (not counting improved haste which benefits bows and xbows with dangerous ammo more, and then slings and throwing axes) max, with 19 str required for all but Xbow and bow of gessen. The non dart throwing weapons fall a little short in terms of ammo variety and damage, but also come paired with a melee proficiency.
Compare this to a melee user with 5 attacks and a 1d8 weapon. That is 11.5x5 = 57.5. Or you can use 1d10 and get 62.5. And you don't gimp your defense.
However game balance is already less than perfect considering all the melee weapon classes that just suck in every way compared to others. It's more of a role playing game. If you want to explore things more I suggest you roll your char stats on an external RNG 3d6 and stick with whatever you get the first time. Then just adapt by using whatever weapons you can, or randomly picking weapons among ones for your strength level as well.
BTW in the recent patches throwing daggers, throwing axes *and* slings get the strength damage bonus, but not darts. I'm actually happy with it like this. But then I don't like characters to be too overpowered, hell in my most recent game I'm playing a Jester duo run with just Safana...
I am surprised this thread got brought back to the main page.
@Horatio Everything in the study you posted supports what I said, maybe I was not clear enough or maybe you just read what you wanted. I never said that strength has no effect on the force of an object, I said there is a threshold that when reached causes additional strength to have a minimal effect.
@Shin I probably should not have used the Bruce Lee example, I spent the last hour looking for it on the internet, the information was in an article I read in the 80's and I should not have used it if I could not present the information to back it up. As to the pillow example, I chose that intentionally, because that is exactly how 2nd edition D&D factors strength into attacks, the hardness, mass, and shape of objects is never taken into account on damage, the full strength bonus always applies, so according to D&D rules a strong warrior could crush a mans head with a pillow swing, while a small weak man would ineffectually smack people in the face with a baseball bat.
Comments
I disagree, the damage is already figured for those kind of darts, they do comparable damage to a dagger, 1d4 or and arrow 1d6, a game dart used on a dart board would probably have a max damage of 1, its barely more then a needle.
There are +3 returning darts, daggers and axes in bg2, there is a bow with unlimited +3 ammo. Adding str bonus would make the damage look like this.
Darts would deal 16-18 damage with 6 attacks per round, average damage of 102.
Daggers would deal 16-19 damage with 5 attacks per round, average damage of 88.
Axe would deal 16-21 damage with 4 attacks per round, average damage of 74.
Bows would deal 9-14 damage with 5 attacks per round, average damage of 58.
Edit: The bow would do 6-11 damage with an average of 43 damage if what people are saying in the other thread is true and magical arrows will not increase damage with bows.
Lets also compare to a melee weapons for the sake of argument.
Two hand sword would deal 11-25 damage with 4 attacks per round, average damage of 82.
I based all these damage totals on a 19 str, easily obtainable by anyone, either through a heavy str build character, or a girdle of hill giant str available cheaply and early in BG2, right when you walk out of Irenicus's dungeon.
I think the numbers speak for themselves, there is a reason you can type 2nd edition dart master and still see tons of threads with DM's and players complaining about people abusing darts in 2nd edition, its the same reason why 3e reduced the base attacks of all weapons to 1, and gave a way for str or dex bonus to be applied to damage for all of them.
That's contrary to something else I read. I will have to do more research.
In any case you may be right.
I don't play fighters generally, so the following math could be (beyond being improperly written up from a technical standpoint) horribly off.
Without the strength damage the best darts in game, if used by a warrior under BGEE's revised grand mastery (old BG1), would do 9- 11 (1d3 +3, +5 for grand mastery) x 5 = 40 average damage (if I'm not mistaken)
Throwing daggers would be 9-12 ( 1d4 +3, +5 for grand mastery) x 4 = 42 average
But non-ranged daggers in shadows of amn could do 1d4 +4 (5-8) +5 (grand mastery damage) ( so now 10-13) + 14 (maximum strength damage) ( so now 24 - 27) x4 = 102 average
But non-ranged daggers in ToB could do 1d4 +5 (6-9) +5 (grand mastery damage) ( so now 11-14) + 14 (maximum strength damage) ( so now 25 - 28) x4 = 106 average.
I am a little confused on how you got your 11-25 two handed damage. With Lilarcor (not the best two handed sword in shadows of amn but available early in game) is 1d10 +3, which would be before other bonuses 4-13 damage. Plus grand mastery to make it 9 - 18 damage + maximum strength bonus of 14 making it 23 - 32 damage. x4 would mean an average of 110 damage.
I just want the game to reflect BG Original as well as the PHB. Also, the maximum attacks per round is only 5.
Look at all this in perspective then tell me whether it is balanced currently with darts doing only 1-3 damage.
@elminster
60 Average damage for dart without the str modifier, 50 if attacks max at 5, 53 for daggers.
@bigdogchris you are correct that in pnp you could get a bow that took advantage of your str bonus, but that is not available in BG and BG2, there are also people saying that the magical arrows only determine what you are going to be able to hit and don't add to damage, I am hoping they are incorrect.
@Horatio
I was using items that would be readily available throughout the campaign, you don't have a limitless supply of magical ammo, though both daggers and darts have wounding variants which do very good damage as well in limited supply.
Yes, melee does significantly more damage then ranged if you take the str damage away, some would say that's balanced since ranged is safer damage available from a distance, even if you disagree that is not a good reason to make bows worthless. Unless you feel all ranged weapons including bows should apply full str bonus? Honestly though, a guy throwing six inch darts should be doing less damage to his opponents then a guy with daggers, who should to less then throwing axes, who should do less then bows, man didn't invent bows and start using them for kicks, we did it because they where superior.
Honestly I think its all silly, strength in reality has very little to do with how much damage a weapon can inflict outside of being strong enough to properly handle the weapon, any increase in the amount of trauma a weapon can cause beyond that is insignificant with increased strength.
Pro baseball pitcher's are not muscle bound giants, the vast majority of them are tall and lanky.
A pro body builder could smack you in the face with a pillow repeatedly and never cause any serious damage, but you wouldn't survive many blows to the head from a skinny twelve year old wielding a baseball bat.
Numerous tests have been done on many athletes and fighters, did you know that Bruce Lee punched significantly harder then Mike Tyson when they where both in their prime, its because while strength certainly increases the ability to hit harder, there is a lot more to it then that.
How hard an object hits is based on its kinetic energy when striking, this is based on many factors, but primarily its the speed at which the object is moving at, the amount of area covered when it makes contact with its target, and how hard the object and its target are. While strength is beneficial in increases striking speed, it's biggest benefit is handling the object easily enough to put maximum speed on it, once the threshold of strength needed to handle an object easily is reached, the added benefits from more strength drop tremendously.
hell, in BG2 with the addition of returning dart +3, my favored (even if just because it amused me) tactic against enemy mages was to set Edwin on them with darts - 3 interrupts per round, and the guy could strip images/skins in seconds, it was downright ridiculous.
Throwing Harder
February 1, 2011 By nsadmin
I talk with a lot of high school and college baseball players. One of the questions I get all the time is what can be done to throw harder. Most often this is from pitchers, but many times it comes from position players as well. Here is a list of things that factor into your throwing velocity.
1. Arm swing mechanics. Very simply this means what your throwing arm does from the moment you take the ball out of the glove until you let it go. No matter how perfect the rest of your mechanics are, how much long toss or working out you do, if you don’t have a smooth, proper, flowing arm swing, you will loose a chance to throw at your maximum velocity. If you youtube pitching or throwing mechanics for guys like Mariano Rivera, Tim Linecum, you will see what the proper arm swing should be. So first and foremost, make this your focus.
This is mastery ^
2. Use it or lose it. I’ll never forget my first year in coaching at Nova Southeastern University in Florida. We had two kids on the team from the Dominican, amazing defensive players. What they did, EVERY DAY was throwing the living heck out of the ball. They said “you want to throw ball hard, you throw ball hard. you want to throw ball far, you throw ball far.” Let’s face it, you want to have a great bench press, you bench press. You want to run a mile fast, you run the mile a lot. Sometimes there are no gimmicks, it is just doing what you are trying to do on a regular basis.
3. Closed to open. Power in pretty much every sport (golf, tennis, hockey, hitting, kicking, boxing, etc) comes from going from a closed body position to an open one. So the more you can stay closed as your prepare to release, the more you will have to fire through and unleash on the ball.
4. Strength. I like to think of it this way. The power to throw comes from the ground/earth. Earth is connected to your feet, feet to your legs, legs to your hips, hips to your core, core to your arms. So you need to be able to build and hold power in these body parts. You certainly know when you have an injury to any of those areas how hard it is to throw. So suffice it to say, the stronger you are throughout your body, the harder you will be able to throw.
This is strength ^
5. Flexibility. Yoga is a growing trend in every sport. How many big baseball players are there? A few, but very few that really pump the ball on the mound or throw it hard across the diamond or from the outfield. The reason is you have to be flexible. You should stretch after every workout and you should work on your flexibility in the same way you do other part of your game.
Coach Mazzoni is the Pitching Coach at Sacred Heart University. Last year Mike Drowne, was drafted in the 28th Round by the LA Dodgers. Mike is a 5’9, 175 pound lefty who threw 88-90 off the mound and 91-93 from the outfield.
Coach Mazzoni is also the author of The High School Athletes Guide to College Baseball and the Director of the College Baseball Coaches Camps. http://www.collegecoachesbaseballcamp.com/2011/02/throwing-harder/
Anyhow, the point is moot as the game should stick to the rules and provide strength damage to all thrown weapons. This is the main point that I am trying to bring across.
My sister can throw a dart hard enough to penetrate the board, you could say she has the strength enough to handle the dart. I have the strength to bury it right up to the handle and often crack the board. You cannot say that strength does not have a substantial impact on the velocity of a projectile.
"
The distance that a competitor can throw a projectile depends upon the strength and technique of the athlete as well as the aerodynamics of the object projected. The speed of the object before release, the angle at which it is released, and the ability to maximize the aerodynamic features of the projectile all contribute to the distance between the release and landing positions. Rotation of a javelin or discus in flight produces extra lift which prolongs flight and therefore results in longer distances.
In this consideration of projectile motion we will treat all thrown objects as small point masses and will ignore the effects of the air through which the projectile is travelling. The horizontal distance travelled by a fired or thrown object is called the range and we will show how this can be determined using the equations of motion. " http://www.absorblearning.com/advancedphysics/demo/units/010105.html
Further evidence of the substantial effect of strength on thrown projecticles can be seen in this study below. Here I have pasted the conclusions.
X. CONCLUSIONS
When an object of mass m is thrown by hand, the tangential
force acting on the object is given by F!ma, where a is
its tangential acceleration. If m is much smaller than the
mass of the hand, then a will be independent of m and will
be limited only by the moment of inertia of the hand and
forearm and by the forces that can be developed by the
muscles involved in throwing. Under these conditions, F will
be directly proportional to m. If m is comparable to or larger
than the mass of the hand, then a will decrease as m increases
due to the increased inertia at the end of the forearm.
If one assumes that the torque applied to the various arm
segments is unaffected by an increase in m, then one can use
a simple one or two segment model of the arm to estimate
the change in F as a function of m. Experimentally, it was
found that the muscle torque acting on the forearm was almost
independent of the thrown mass, and that the total kinetic
energy of the hand, forearm, and mass in the hand was
essentially independent of the mass of the thrown object.
Throwing can therefore be regarded for physics teaching purposes
as a relatively straightforward problem in undergraduate
mechanics, without being too concerned about subtle or
unfamiliar biomechanical or physiological effects.
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/25. Throwing.pdf
As you can see from this, it is clear that studies HAVE shown that strength is one of the primary factors which influence the velocity and therefore the impact of thrown projectiles, If it is not enough that the vanilla game had strength bonuses for thrown weapons, then hopefully facts can influence this.
In regards to limited supplies of arrows, I have never run out of frost or fire arrows, running low? hit up peldvale for some frost arrows, buy acid, fire and several others from Thanantyr, and the smithy in Beregost. Show me darts that have elemental damages or anything apart from wounding ( which does not work on some of the toughest enemies ) or stunning ( which also does not work on the majority of enemies you would need them for ). There are in fact only 3 types of dart, the +1 variant, stunning and wounding. This means that the bow, even if not recieving a strength bonus recieves far greater boon in its flexibility.
There are 10 different types of magical arrow in Baldur's Gate vanilla. The flexibility this allows is far stronger than str damage to darts and daggers. Need a fireball? Arrows of detonation. Pesky mage? Arrows of dispelling. Need damage? Arrows of Acid ( 2-7 + 2-12 damage not including masteries or bow damage.
Sorry about wall of text, but I needed to get my point across.
i.e.
do slings?
do throwing axes?
do throwing daggers?
do darts?
It doesn't help that what is displayed on the character record is often bugged and wrong, I think you actually need to look at what's happening in-game to work out what's going on
Throwing Dagger 1-4
Darts 1-3
Sling 9-12
Throwing Axe - 2-7
Of the above it looks like *only* slings are getting the strength damage bonus applied. Is this correct? If so the manual is definitely wrong about throwing daggers and axes, but I think this has already been reported, onthe other hand, if the strength bonus for slings is correct, this *should* be indicated in the manual...
Crossbows: NO Str bonus. Gains magic enhancement to hit/damage + innate damage bonus.
Bows: Gains str bonus (short/long (max of +2), Composite (any)), gains magic enhancement to hit. (In BG1 all bows got any str and applied their enhancement to damage as well as hit)
Thrown (Darts, Daggers, Axes): Any str bonus, magic enhancement to hit/damage.
Slings: Any strength bonus, enhancement only applies to hit.
That's from PnP.
Based on a thread I read a while back, I was under the impression that for BG:EE, the only ranged weapons that would gain str bonus damage would be throwing axes. Based on what I've read since it came out, it seems that only slings are getting str bonuses.
There's already checks and balances for darts in this game...barely any special darts at all, and their stack sizes, even buffed, result in you burning through ammo at an incredible rate. Bows and even crossbows get better options ammo-wise (and give me darts of detonation and dispelling, then we'll talk), and in BG2 throwing daggers and axes get several nice additions as well. The best dart in the game is the +3 returning one...the only one in existence, the next closest are all +1 or not magical at all (except for the 5 +5 per day the cloak of the stars can make, that disappear on rest)
What I ended up doing with the other weapons balanced ranged weapons nicely against each other. Xbows get bonus attacks but not STR bonus, and Composite Bows get Str bonus (but lost their native +2 and only require 16 str). Shortbows are slightly gimped until BG2 with the Gessen bow, at which point they are also balanced. Slings are the only launcher that get both Str bonus and bonus attacks, and the thrown weapons all get both. Xbows and Bows keep up because of their super ammo (Arrows of detonation are around but hard to find in BG2, and lightning bolts are in BGEE apparently... at least in the files)
This puts all of them at around 40 dam per round (not counting improved haste which benefits bows and xbows with dangerous ammo more, and then slings and throwing axes) max, with 19 str required for all but Xbow and bow of gessen. The non dart throwing weapons fall a little short in terms of ammo variety and damage, but also come paired with a melee proficiency.
Compare this to a melee user with 5 attacks and a 1d8 weapon. That is 11.5x5 = 57.5. Or you can use 1d10 and get 62.5. And you don't gimp your defense.
However game balance is already less than perfect considering all the melee weapon classes that just suck in every way compared to others. It's more of a role playing game. If you want to explore things more I suggest you roll your char stats on an external RNG 3d6 and stick with whatever you get the first time. Then just adapt by using whatever weapons you can, or randomly picking weapons among ones for your strength level as well.
@Horatio Everything in the study you posted supports what I said, maybe I was not clear enough or maybe you just read what you wanted. I never said that strength has no effect on the force of an object, I said there is a threshold that when reached causes additional strength to have a minimal effect.
@Shin I probably should not have used the Bruce Lee example, I spent the last hour looking for it on the internet, the information was in an article I read in the 80's and I should not have used it if I could not present the information to back it up. As to the pillow example, I chose that intentionally, because that is exactly how 2nd edition D&D factors strength into attacks, the hardness, mass, and shape of objects is never taken into account on damage, the full strength bonus always applies, so according to D&D rules a strong warrior could crush a mans head with a pillow swing, while a small weak man would ineffectually smack people in the face with a baseball bat.