You can also get a +2 longsword (with bonus +1 cold damage) almost immediately after Nashkel..about the same overall difficulty as the guys that drop the +2 SS, or taking down bassilus for the hammer.
In the half-orcs favor, 19 str means easy rolls, they can get 20 con (after the manual, which is pretty much immediately), which is natural regen, aka very few healing potions will ever actually be needed, and once you can throw a pair of boots of speed on them, they'll be able to chunk 2-3 archers before they can swap targets. And that starting +3 hit/+7 damage is huge, unless you rolled long enough for 18/00 which would be only a minor upgrade..mostly for the extra weight. But the difference between 18/00 and 18/anything else is pretty big.
Sure a 18/00 elf would have a +1 hit advantage, which is helpful early on, but that'll probably be corrected eventually and be longsword/Longbow only again, so you may or may not maintain it. And less hp with the same AC..well..you see where I'm going.
Still, stats aren't everything. I've had a 17/9/15/11/12/18 human Kensai I took through the whole saga to just fine. The low AC only hurts in the very beginning while your hp totals and thac0 are low, and you lack speed, after that, enemies die before they hit you.
Although, with my party setup my Kensai barely gets any action. Kivan with Composite Longbow, Branwen with +1 Sling, and Garrick with Crossbow (and occasionally Safana with darts) kill nearly everything before I can run up to it.Boots of speed will eventually fix that I suppose, and the tougher enemies won't go down in one hit, so I can get a chance to swing.
Personally when it comes to fighter kits I always envisioned Elves as Kensai or Wizard Slayers but Dwarves and Half-Orcs more as Berserkers or Wizard Slayers. Furthermore, its not like going Kensai in Longswords is a bad idea either. Even in the original games they had plenty of good longswords all over that you could equip.
While the +1 Thac0 might not be game breaking, its definitely not useless.
Personally when it comes to fighter kits I always envisioned Elves as Kensai or Wizard Slayers but Dwarves and Half-Orcs more as Berserkers or Wizard Slayers. Furthermore, its not like going Kensai in Longswords is a bad idea either. Even in the original games they had plenty of good longswords all over that you could equip.
While the +1 Thac0 might not be game breaking, its definitely not useless.
I agree about the Longsword, and I can see the personal opinion about the races associated with the kits. Since I almost always write my character's biography (if not in game that at least in my head) I like to mess around with odd details. I came up with some interesting reasons for my Dwarf Kensai, my Half-Orc Swashbuckler, and other odd combinations.
I've thought a halberd Kensai would be fun. Essentially like a naginata (to keep Asian feel of Kensai). Anyway, thinking of different approaches is fun. Right now, I'm a boring ½elf Archer (assassin sniper, essentially). That's fun, but I like Kensai as an idea.
I'm more disposed to 1-handed single weapon style for the AC boost. Maybe it isn't a huge deal, but 2 on top of high DEX and Kensai bonus gets you to AC2, which is a lot more survivable.
I'm really interested in hearing some of those bio's just for fun. Honestly its the characters that break what seem normal that can make the game really interesting.
After the first few levels, AC doesn't matter much any more, and while the extra chance to crit from single weapon style is nice, it's only 10% total (up from 5%), and an extra attack from dual-wielding would probably be better. The Kensai is Offense is the best defense incarnate. And that 2nd point in single weapon style is such a waste.....it's as bad as sword/shield style..and that's the biggest waste of points..well.. ever, short of a BG TuTu run with GM in Katana.
I wouldn't worry too much about those missing hit points. You are only going to miss out on 9 extra hit points cause at lvl 10 you get a static +3 per level. That extra thaco for long swords would be nice but the dex bonus is no big deal cause you get the extra -4 to ac at 18 and don't get -5 until 21 dex.
I've thought a halberd Kensai would be fun. Essentially like a naginata (to keep Asian feel of Kensai). Anyway, thinking of different approaches is fun. Right now, I'm a boring ½elf Archer (assassin sniper, essentially). That's fun, but I like Kensai as an idea.
I'm more disposed to 1-handed single weapon style for the AC boost. Maybe it isn't a huge deal, but 2 on top of high DEX and Kensai bonus gets you to AC2, which is a lot more survivable.
I went Single Weapon style for the 2 AC, and I definitely don't regret it. EDIT: Halberd Kensai does sound fun, and you would crit a lot. My only problem is that A.) Katanas have better speed factors, and equal damage (though not as much reach, that could be a factor for you) and B.) From what I have witnessed, EVENTUALLY (in BG2) Magical Katanas outclass magical Halberds. For BG1 though, that would be very very powerful compared to a Katana fighter.
After the first few levels, AC doesn't matter much any more, and while the extra chance to crit from single weapon style is nice, it's only 10% total (up from 5%), and an extra attack from dual-wielding would probably be better. The Kensai is Offense is the best defense incarnate. And that 2nd point in single weapon style is such a waste.....it's as bad as sword/shield style..and that's the biggest waste of points..well.. ever, short of a BG TuTu run with GM in Katana.
But it's those first few levels that are the most crucial--your HPs are low, and when even "kick you in the head" Bandits can kill you, AC is a must. Besides, you get gobs and gobs of proficiency points to put into two-weapon style later (thank you Fighters).
@Dragonspear Is there a thread where people can post their Bios with a screenshot of their character screen? I would scan every single comment of that thread, and if it doesn't exist perhaps it should! That way we can all share our ideas.
This is quite strange since a friend of mine just started EE with an Elven Kensai, he is prone to Elves though.
They're not terrible, though they don't match up to Dwarves & Half-Orcs. If you're planning to play through BG1-TOB then your Dex can reach 21 which will result in another -1 to your AC & you'll reach 21 Con (if you take the evil option at the end of BG2/Lum). Half-Orcs & Dwarves will have 23 Con at that point, which while resulting in higher natural regeneration will not result in them having HP superiority - You would infact have the same HP.
If I may continue to project far beyond the realms of BG1 (I always play my PC through), a Half-Orcs 19 Str may not be an overwelming bonus compared to what any other race could achieve with 18:00 but having 19 puts you one point above those races - It may seem a minor advantage at the time but naturally you'll increase your Str even further & the edge it grants becomes more prononced. The difference between 18:00 & 19 may only be one point in damage but the difference between 20 & 21 is +1 to hit & +1 to damage & with the racial bonus you'll reach that sooner.
But... Shorty saves are great & Dwarves love hammers (in the off-hand at least)
I doubt that helped at all. Wonder what I set out to say.
From what I have witnessed, EVENTUALLY (in BG2) Magical Katanas outclass magical Halberds. For BG1 though, that would be very very powerful compared to a Katana fighter.
There are some pretty good halberds in BG2 as well: Wave, Dragon's Breath (the halberd equivalent to the FoA)... and eventually the Ravager +6, probably one of the best two-handed weapons in the game. The problem is, they're all obtained pretty late in the game, while katanas like CF or the Zerth Blade can be obtained potentially as soon as you leave Chateau Irenicus.
From what I have witnessed, EVENTUALLY (in BG2) Magical Katanas outclass magical Halberds. For BG1 though, that would be very very powerful compared to a Katana fighter.
There are some pretty good halberds in BG2 as well: Wave, Dragon's Breath (the halberd equivalent to the FoA)... and eventually the Ravager +6, probably one of the best two-handed weapons in the game. The problem is, they're all obtained pretty late in the game, while katanas like CF or the Zerth Blade can be obtained potentially as soon as you leave Chateau Irenicus.
Exactly. There are some badass halberds, but they are acquired rather late. Celestial Fury (perhaps the most OP weapon in the game) is available right after your mandatory visit to the slums (so quite possibly, 45 minutes in to the game).
From what I have witnessed, EVENTUALLY (in BG2) Magical Katanas outclass magical Halberds. For BG1 though, that would be very very powerful compared to a Katana fighter.
There are some pretty good halberds in BG2 as well: Wave, Dragon's Breath (the halberd equivalent to the FoA)... and eventually the Ravager +6, probably one of the best two-handed weapons in the game. The problem is, they're all obtained pretty late in the game, while katanas like CF or the Zerth Blade can be obtained potentially as soon as you leave Chateau Irenicus.
Exactly. There are some badass halberds, but they are acquired rather late. Celestial Fury (perhaps the most OP weapon in the game) is available right after your mandatory visit to the slums (so quite possibly, 45 minutes in to the game).
Oh most definitely. I am almost always going to go with katana when using a kensai in BG2. No other one-handed weapon compares for maximum effectiveness in combat. And yes, Celestial Fury was indeed over-powered (most OP'd weapon in the game, I don't know), but I loved it! My fave weapon in the game it was.
Honestly if you go evil, not only are their plenty of good longswords in the game, (and a couple more good ones in watchers keep), but there is a longsword in hell that is truly amazing.
The Blackrazor is fantastic, shame it's only +3 but really that's enough against most foes. Just keep another longsword at hand with a higher enchantment should you need it.
Longswords as a rule are abundant, aside from Celectial Fury there aren't really any other Katanas that are well suited to a Kensai. So there's your main-hand, what of your off-hand? Dak'kon's Zerth Blade is great as an off-hand weapon for fighter/mages but it offers little bonus to Kensais other than +1 AC. All that leaves is Hindo's Doom, which is +4 fully upgraded with no bonus damage aside from it's + enchantment. Though using it in the off-hand is only one attack so you could justify it's use for it's magic resistance.
The Flail of Ages is also a great main-hand weapon, worth thinking about. Paired with the Defender of Easthaven in your off-hand to yeild +1 AC & + 20% resistance to slashing, piercing & blunt damage. Which works well with your total lack of armor. The fully upgraded Flail of Ages (aside from it's impressive damage) also grants +5% magic resistance, free action & can slow your opponent.
In mentioning a Kensais lack of armor I should add that it's quite easy to overcome. Aerie for example can use spell triggers to cast spells such as Ghost Armor, Blur etc on your PC & not only that but also spells such as Righteous Magic. Which increases your Str to 24 & you'll inflict maximum damage during its duration (which is handy in later stages where you'll want to use epic abilties such as Whirlwind & thus can't use Kai).
That's all quite far away though so... Whatever makes you happy during BGEE, you may not even play through the complete saga with the same PC. As I said earlier, I plan far in advance (incase you didn't pick that up from ^). If it's just BG1 I'd use either the Staff of Striking (keep it nice & charged) or Drizzts Defender single weapon style.
Elves are a poor choice for kensais. They lose hp and the 19 dex doesn't give you -1 AC (after 18 dex, you need 21 for the next -1 AC).
Half Orc would be much much better for 19 str and con.
An Elf can get 21 Dex in BGII. Give them the returning throwing axe in BG1 and the Azureedge in BGII and you've got a good ranged Kensai (though I can't actually remember if the Kensai damage bonus applies to thrown weapons).
An elf, like most everyone else, can also bump up to 19 Str with a tome, meaning the only difference between them and a half-orc is +1 damage in melee (since you can get 22 with DoMT with Half-Orc in BGII, or 21 with an elf, and 19/20 in BG1)
Con is a larger issue, since the Half-Orc can be regenerating in BG1 with 20 Con, the elf can't. The overall difference between the two by the time the Half-Orc reaches (assuming Evil Hell Trial), 23 Con, is 6 HP per level and health regeneration versus 5 HP per level and no regeneration. That's 9 HP difference overall (assuming you don't cheese a Potion of Fortitude or use your DUHM for 25 Con anyway).
So the actual difference between an Elf and a Half-Orc is:
The Half-Orc can regenerate slowly without being evil, saving on healing costs. 9 more HP in total and +1 Damage a hit. The Elf has -1 Ranged THAC0, -1 THAC0 with Swords, and -1 AC (in BGII). Since it's hard to get AC as a Kensai, that's not a bad tradeoff, and is perfectly viable.
Well, at least as viable as any unarmoured non-mage primary melee character can be.
The Blackrazor is fantastic, shame it's only +3 but really that's enough against most foes. Just keep another longsword at hand with a higher enchantment should you need it.
Longswords as a rule are abundant, aside from Celectial Fury there aren't really any other Katanas that are well suited to a Kensai. So there's your main-hand, what of your off-hand? Dak'kon's Zerth Blade is great as an off-hand weapon for fighter/mages but it offers little bonus to Kensais other than +1 AC. All that leaves is Hindo's Doom, which is +4 fully upgraded with no bonus damage aside from it's + enchantment. Though using it in the off-hand is only one attack so you could justify it's use for it's magic resistance.
Yep, long swords are definitely more abundant. In fact, that's why my second weapon of choice was typically the long sword. There are some great ones. In Shadows of Amn, I typically rolled with Celestial Fury in the main hand, and the Equalizer in the off hand. When it came to ToB, however, I swapped out the Equalizer for Hindo's Doom. I like the magic resistance, personally. And at higher levels my first kensai wasn't getting hit by much of anything except for powerful magic (like death magic). More often than not, I found that Celestial Fury would stun just about anything, meaning all I really wanted was higher standard attack/damage rolls. Nothing compares to dual wielding katana, in that respect, IMO. Everyone has their own preference though; it's more that just about power, it's about what suits you best.
Also, does someone know for a fact that the Elf's bonus to long swords actually applies to all one-handed swords? (I've read elsewhere that this is indeed the case, but not sure if it still holds true for EE.)
Thanks.
Yes, currently the bonus is for all swords, including katanas, scimitars, two handed etc. In PnP should only be long and short swords (and bows, obviously), though.
No in all honesty the Katanas really are fantastic. I'd prolly end up switching to them or flails by ToB as well. For me though the CF can't compete with weapons like daystar and the dragonslayer sword (on top of Blackrazor etc) just in terms of the early game simply due to proficiency. Its the difference between getting the max out of your proficiency at all levels in both hands, or only getting it in your main hand. And from the way Katanas look in BG1, it's prolly the same thing. They are GREAT weapons, I love them. But I view them best in ToB, since there is really only one good one before that =(
I do like Katana's for their appearance and celestial fury. They seem to fit a Kensei well and are the bestt looking weapon dual wielded IMO. If you are going to go with two handed weapons it doesn't really matter if halberds are only available later in the game. You will have plenty of points for at least two or three weapon types. I would start with two handed swords and then pickup staff or halberd later.
The - 1 to constitution makes no difference since hp bonuses stop at level 13, and if played right you seldom are in danger to being killed just get some of the con potion
My last BGT run through with a halfling kensai wielding 2H swords. It was a lot of fun (and intended to be a bit funny seeing a halfling with a devasting large weapon) and there were no problems in terms of the viability of the character.
Which is to say that you can optimize but if you are going straight kensai then there is no formula that is going to be outright broken. Go for whatever combination you think is the most fun...elf, dwarf....katana, axe, halberd.....whatever seems like fun.
Comments
In the half-orcs favor, 19 str means easy rolls, they can get 20 con (after the manual, which is pretty much immediately), which is natural regen, aka very few healing potions will ever actually be needed, and once you can throw a pair of boots of speed on them, they'll be able to chunk 2-3 archers before they can swap targets. And that starting +3 hit/+7 damage is huge, unless you rolled long enough for 18/00 which would be only a minor upgrade..mostly for the extra weight. But the difference between 18/00 and 18/anything else is pretty big.
Sure a 18/00 elf would have a +1 hit advantage, which is helpful early on, but that'll probably be corrected eventually and be longsword/Longbow only again, so you may or may not maintain it. And less hp with the same AC..well..you see where I'm going.
Still, stats aren't everything. I've had a 17/9/15/11/12/18 human Kensai I took through the whole saga to just fine. The low AC only hurts in the very beginning while your hp totals and thac0 are low, and you lack speed, after that, enemies die before they hit you.
While the +1 Thac0 might not be game breaking, its definitely not useless.
I'm more disposed to 1-handed single weapon style for the AC boost. Maybe it isn't a huge deal, but 2 on top of high DEX and Kensai bonus gets you to AC2, which is a lot more survivable.
I'm really interested in hearing some of those bio's just for fun. Honestly its the characters that break what seem normal that can make the game really interesting.
EDIT: Halberd Kensai does sound fun, and you would crit a lot. My only problem is that A.) Katanas have better speed factors, and equal damage (though not as much reach, that could be a factor for you) and B.) From what I have witnessed, EVENTUALLY (in BG2) Magical Katanas outclass magical Halberds. For BG1 though, that would be very very powerful compared to a Katana fighter. But it's those first few levels that are the most crucial--your HPs are low, and when even "kick you in the head" Bandits can kill you, AC is a must. Besides, you get gobs and gobs of proficiency points to put into two-weapon style later (thank you Fighters).
Is there a thread where people can post their Bios with a screenshot of their character screen? I would scan every single comment of that thread, and if it doesn't exist perhaps it should! That way we can all share our ideas.
They're not terrible, though they don't match up to Dwarves & Half-Orcs. If you're planning to play through BG1-TOB then your Dex can reach 21 which will result in another -1 to your AC & you'll reach 21 Con (if you take the evil option at the end of BG2/Lum). Half-Orcs & Dwarves will have 23 Con at that point, which while resulting in higher natural regeneration will not result in them having HP superiority - You would infact have the same HP.
If I may continue to project far beyond the realms of BG1 (I always play my PC through), a Half-Orcs 19 Str may not be an overwelming bonus compared to what any other race could achieve with 18:00 but having 19 puts you one point above those races - It may seem a minor advantage at the time but naturally you'll increase your Str even further & the edge it grants becomes more prononced. The difference between 18:00 & 19 may only be one point in damage but the difference between 20 & 21 is +1 to hit & +1 to damage & with the racial bonus you'll reach that sooner.
But... Shorty saves are great & Dwarves love hammers (in the off-hand at least)
I doubt that helped at all. Wonder what I set out to say.
Hmm...
Longswords as a rule are abundant, aside from Celectial Fury there aren't really any other Katanas that are well suited to a Kensai. So there's your main-hand, what of your off-hand? Dak'kon's Zerth Blade is great as an off-hand weapon for fighter/mages but it offers little bonus to Kensais other than +1 AC. All that leaves is Hindo's Doom, which is +4 fully upgraded with no bonus damage aside from it's + enchantment. Though using it in the off-hand is only one attack so you could justify it's use for it's magic resistance.
The Flail of Ages is also a great main-hand weapon, worth thinking about. Paired with the Defender of Easthaven in your off-hand to yeild +1 AC & + 20% resistance to slashing, piercing & blunt damage. Which works well with your total lack of armor. The fully upgraded Flail of Ages (aside from it's impressive damage) also grants +5% magic resistance, free action & can slow your opponent.
In mentioning a Kensais lack of armor I should add that it's quite easy to overcome. Aerie for example can use spell triggers to cast spells such as Ghost Armor, Blur etc on your PC & not only that but also spells such as Righteous Magic. Which increases your Str to 24 & you'll inflict maximum damage during its duration (which is handy in later stages where you'll want to use epic abilties such as Whirlwind & thus can't use Kai).
That's all quite far away though so... Whatever makes you happy during BGEE, you may not even play through the complete saga with the same PC. As I said earlier, I plan far in advance (incase you didn't pick that up from ^). If it's just BG1 I'd use either the Staff of Striking (keep it nice & charged) or Drizzts Defender single weapon style.
An elf, like most everyone else, can also bump up to 19 Str with a tome, meaning the only difference between them and a half-orc is +1 damage in melee (since you can get 22 with DoMT with Half-Orc in BGII, or 21 with an elf, and 19/20 in BG1)
Con is a larger issue, since the Half-Orc can be regenerating in BG1 with 20 Con, the elf can't. The overall difference between the two by the time the Half-Orc reaches (assuming Evil Hell Trial), 23 Con, is 6 HP per level and health regeneration versus 5 HP per level and no regeneration. That's 9 HP difference overall (assuming you don't cheese a Potion of Fortitude or use your DUHM for 25 Con anyway).
So the actual difference between an Elf and a Half-Orc is:
The Half-Orc can regenerate slowly without being evil, saving on healing costs. 9 more HP in total and +1 Damage a hit.
The Elf has -1 Ranged THAC0, -1 THAC0 with Swords, and -1 AC (in BGII). Since it's hard to get AC as a Kensai, that's not a bad tradeoff, and is perfectly viable.
Well, at least as viable as any unarmoured non-mage primary melee character can be.
Dear dear Sir Robin,
No in all honesty the Katanas really are fantastic. I'd prolly end up switching to them or flails by ToB as well. For me though the CF can't compete with weapons like daystar and the dragonslayer sword (on top of Blackrazor etc) just in terms of the early game simply due to proficiency. Its the difference between getting the max out of your proficiency at all levels in both hands, or only getting it in your main hand. And from the way Katanas look in BG1, it's prolly the same thing. They are GREAT weapons, I love them. But I view them best in ToB, since there is really only one good one before that =(
Which is to say that you can optimize but if you are going straight kensai then there is no formula that is going to be outright broken. Go for whatever combination you think is the most fun...elf, dwarf....katana, axe, halberd.....whatever seems like fun.