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Indeed you can have Grand Mastery (*****) in BG1 ...

Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
... but actually it requires that your character is not only a warrior.

=> He must be dual classed.
The best choice is : Fighter 6 / Thief 9

When create your character, add ** to your weapon of choice.

At level 3, and level 6, add * x 2 to your weapon.

Then dual him to thief. You will gain 2 starting *, that you won't be able to add to your warrior proficiencies.

He will gain two more * at level 4 and level 8.

The level 8 proficiency will be enough to get the ***** in your chosen weapon (since your regained your fighter levels).

If you also want the level 4 * to be added to your fighter proficiencies, you have to level up your character to level 3 thief, and stack enough XP to level straight to level 7 (where your previous capacities will be obtainable).

(check the exp required for level 7, as I can't recall it properly).

Enjoy your fighter with grand Mastery :)
He'll have less PV than a straight fighter, but a better TAC0 in the chosen weapon since he has Grand mastery in it.
RAM021
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Comments

  • valkyvalky Member Posts: 386
    edited December 2012
    Base Thac0 Thief lvl 10: 16 (is there a lvl cap or only xp-cap?)
    Base Thac0 Fighter lvl 8 (xp-limit): 13

    Dual-class:
    Thief Thac0 with 9 (based on getting 15 @ 7 instead of 17): 14

    Grandmastery (non-modded)
    2 Specialized +1 THAC0. +2 damage. +1/2 attacks per round
    3 Mastery +2 THAC0. +2 damage. +1/2 attacks per round
    4 High Mastery +2 THAC0. +3 damage. +1/2 attacks per round. -1 speed factor to weapon.
    5 Grand Mastery +2 THAC0. +4 damage. +1/2 attacks per round. -3 speed factor to weapon.

    = +1 damage / -1 Thac0 :)

    Further it's a cheesy abuse of the engine, some don't care but some do. Typical a dual-class Fighter->whatever shouldn't be able to ever raise the points in the 'deadweight' Fighter class, if it didn't reach the proper lvl 9 to spend all 5 points in 1 proficiency.
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    This sounds like a bit of a bug, no? Shouldn't we not be able to use a dual class to further specialize?
  • VukiVuki Member Posts: 36
    It is not a bug, it is a feature and it is according to the rules. When you exceed in your new class the old class level then you are able to use all of your feature of your old AND new class. Including grand mastery. There are very few exception, like priests cannot use sharp weapons.

    I am not saying it is realistic, but as I know it is according to AD&D 2nd edition rules. It is even the same in 3.0, if you get a feat and your fighter level is at least 4 but you level up in a different class (so, feat come from a different class) you can still put it to the weapon specialization (unless it is a special feat, like wizards magic feat).
  • AllbrotherAllbrother Member Posts: 261
    valky said:

    5 Grand Mastery +2 THAC0. +4 damage. +1/2 attacks per round. -3 speed factor to weapon.


    Incorrect
    Grand Mastery isn't gimped in this game
    RAM021
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    But, as a dual class, you're prohibited from further increasing the skills of your first class. I say it is a bug since Grand Mastery is something that's exclusive to Fighters, but you are able to reach the level as a Thief.
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    Yeah but in BG1, since there is an XP cap at 161000, you cannot progress any further.

    When BG2:EE will be out, it will be more interesting to dual in the second game, but for the moment, this combo is the best.
  • valkyvalky Member Posts: 386
    Vuki said:

    It is not a bug, it is a feature and it is according to the rules. When you exceed in your new class the old class level then you are able to use all of your feature of your old AND new class. Including grand mastery. There are very few exception, like priests cannot use sharp weapons.

    Not necessary. As you describe it, I can further advance in a class I don't have access to anymore even if the Fighter gets enabled (lets just take the above sample) at Thief 7. But the Thief is only limited to 1 prof point. But those points don't sum up, instead the lower of both just vanishes.

    There are a lot discussions about this problem :) You either take it that way and don't care or try to be rule-conform. ie a Fighter->Mage should not have access and influence the proficiency of the 1st class and can advance in whatever he like.
    ANd 3rd edition is completely different, as there exists no dual-classing - that are basically all multiclasses. As long as I met the requirements I can advance whatever I want.
    But if I don't advance the fighter any further, I can't spec in Greater Weapon Specialization and so on. Basically the same problem, cause I'd need a real fighter lvl 9 - cause only this sole class can spent up to 5 points and only at this very lvl 9 in a profiency - and no one else.
    Why should suddenly Mister tiny Rogue or Mage advance in a proficiency for a weapon, they don't even know how to wear otherwise ^^

    I doubt it's a 'feature' :) given the massive cheesy/abusive stuff in BG2....

    Whatever someone prefer ^^ I still level up to 9 and switch thereafter.
    RAM021
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited December 2012
    Silchas said:

    valky said:

    5 Grand Mastery +2 THAC0. +4 damage. +1/2 attacks per round. -3 speed factor to weapon.


    Incorrect
    Grand Mastery isn't gimped in this game
    Sorry, I do not understand the word "gimped" in this sentence (English is not my native language).

    Do you mean it's currently bugged and that grand mastery does not work ?
    Or do you mean that's not implemented and it cannot work as intended ?

    Thanks for your answer !
  • valkyvalky Member Posts: 386
    edited December 2012

    Sorry, I do not understand the word "gimped" in this sentence (English is not my native language).

    =bugged, wrong...whatever :)
    The "true" Grandmastery-table:

    1 Proficient Normal THAC0 while using weapon
    2 Specialized +1 THAC0. +2 damage. +1/2 attacks per round
    3 Mastery +3 THAC0. +3 damage. +1/2 attacks per round
    4 High Mastery +3 THAC0. +4 damage. +1/2 attacks per round. -1 speed factor to weapon.
    5 Grand Mastery +3 THAC0. +5 damage. +3/2 attacks per round. -3 speed factor to weapon.

    [note the extra attack for 5 pips]

    In that case your fighter 6 / thief 9 would be extraordinary :)
    AllbrotherQuartzRAM021
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    Let's ask this as a bug fix ! (I'm about to ;-) ).
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited December 2012
    Actually, it says pretty clearly in the proficiency section of the players handbook ONLY the fighter class (or it's sub-classes) can specialize, and only the fighter can spent more then 2 proficiency on a single ability. Doesn't matter if your base class was a fighter, unless your current class can specialize as well, it can only put 1 point in a proficiency, even after your abilities come back (you can put proficiency in fighter weapons, but you can't put more then 1, because you're no longer advancing as a fighter, you're advancing as your new class which can only place 1). BG1 actually had that implemented correctly, but BG2 F'd it up (and BG:EE apparently).


    2nd edition players handbook, Proficiency section, pg 73. "In one way a weapon specialist is much like a specialist wizard. Specialization requires single minded dedication and training. Thus dual and multi-class character cannot attain weapon specialization. It is available only to single class fighters or their sub-classes."

    So actually, multiclass characters shouldn't even get specialization at all, much less a dual-class be able to attain GM.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
    LinkamusrdarkenRAM021
  • gogopostgogopost Member Posts: 19
    edited December 2012
    Yea, it works very well for druid/fighters. Dual to druid at lvl-5 or lvl-6 and you can get one grand master level... AND also gain level 5 priest spells... AND wear heavy armour... AND xp requirements for gaining lvl-6,7 for druid is not that high. Best class in the game, but you must make sure that fighter is proficient in druid weapons (not a big problem with Drizzts scimitar being best sword in game!).

    Still, I believe that its better in fighter/druid to go for scimitars and a ranged weapon. Grandmastery isn't as useful as being a multiprupose killing machine.
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    AFAIK in BG:EE grand mastery gives you 1 extra attack not 3/2 so it is juts 1/2 improvement over high mastery.
    TJ_HookerRAM021
  • VukiVuki Member Posts: 36
    valky said:

    Not necessary. As you describe it, I can further advance in a class I don't have access to anymore even if the Fighter gets enabled (lets just take the above sample) at Thief 7. But the Thief is only limited to 1 prof point. But those points don't sum up, instead the lower of both just vanishes.

    Yes, that can be seen in this way. Or can be seen in the other way: the fighter class allows you to understand fighting with weapons on a master level and whenever you get a possibility to increase your weapon skill further (=get a weapon proficiency point) you can increase it till your maximum (so, as soon you remember your master knowledge you can use it). If you level up in another class you can improve it not as often as a fighter - that is the consequency that you are not a fighter anymore. In reality this behaviour is just an extension of the rule that you can put a star on a proficiency that you only know from your previous class.

    Again, they did not change it in 3.0 and 3.5, so that is why I think it is a feature. Or it is a bug of the paper version of AD&D (and D&D as well). One other similar example: you can spend your skillpoints in 3.0/3.5 on any skill that is allowed to you by any of your class and not just your actual level-up class (and you can increase it not as a cross-skill but as a normal one).

    But I think there are much more strange behaviours of the dual-class system, for example why the hell do you forget your first class features for a while and then suddenly start to remember again? Ok, I know the philosophy behind this concept (you concentrate full time on your new class) but it is still really weird.
    RAM021
  • VukiVuki Member Posts: 36

    2nd edition players handbook, Proficiency section, pg 73. "In one way a weapon specialist is much like a specialist wizard. Specialization requires single minded dedication and training. Thus dual and multi-class character cannot attain weapon specialization. It is available only to single class fighters or their sub-classes."

    So actually, multiclass characters shouldn't even get specialization at all, much less a dual-class be able to attain GM.

    Ok, my mistake, it was not allowed in 2nd edition. However they revised it (together with the dual-class system and feat concept) and in D&D you can specialize even if you level up in a different class (unless you have no 4th+ level in fighter class).
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438

    Actually, it says pretty clearly in the proficiency section of the players handbook ONLY the fighter class (or it's sub-classes) can specialize, and only the fighter can spent more then 2 proficiency on a single ability. Doesn't matter if your base class was a fighter, unless your current class can specialize as well, it can only put 1 point in a proficiency, even after your abilities come back (you can put proficiency in fighter weapons, but you can't put more then 1, because you're no longer advancing as a fighter, you're advancing as your new class which can only place 1). BG1 actually had that implemented correctly, but BG2 F'd it up (and BG:EE apparently).


    2nd edition players handbook, Proficiency section, pg 73. "In one way a weapon specialist is much like a specialist wizard. Specialization requires single minded dedication and training. Thus dual and multi-class character cannot attain weapon specialization. It is available only to single class fighters or their sub-classes."

    So actually, multiclass characters shouldn't even get specialization at all, much less a dual-class be able to attain GM.

    So according to DnD, rangers and paladins are limited to putting only 1 point in weapons? Or when it says "specialization" do they mean proficiency past 2 points?
  • valkyvalky Member Posts: 386
    edited December 2012
    "Any time after reaching 2nd level, a human character can enter a new character class,
    provided he has scores of 17 or better in the prime requisites of the new class. After
    switching to a new class, the character no longer earns experience points in his previous
    character class and he can no longer advance in level in that class. Nor can he switch
    back to his first class at a later date, hoping to resume his advancement where he left off.
    Once he leaves a class he has finished his studies in it. Instead, he starts over in a new
    class, at 1st level with 0 experience points, but he does retain his previous Hit Dice and
    hit points. He gains the abilities, and must abide by all of the restrictions, of the new
    class. He does not gain or lose any points on his ability scores (for example, an 18
    Strength wizard who changes to fighter does not gain the percentile Strength bonus, but
    likewise a fighter changing to a wizard would not lose it). The character uses the combat
    and saving throw tables appropriate to his new class and level.
    This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still
    has, at his fingertips, all the knowledge, abilities, and proficiencies of his old class. But if
    he uses any of his previous class's abilities during an encounter, he earns no experience
    for that encounter and only half experience for the adventure. The only values that can be
    carried over from the previous class without restriction are the character's Hit Dice and
    hit points. The character is penalized for using his old attack or saving throw numbers,
    weapons or armor that are now prohibited, and any special abilities of the old class that
    are not also abilities of the new class. (The character is trying to learn new ways to do
    things; by slipping back to his old methods, he has set back his learning in his new
    character class.)"

    Further ^^
    "Weapon specialization is an optional rule that enables a fighter (only) to choose a
    single weapon and specialize in its use. Any weapon may be chosen. Specialization is
    normally announced (and paid for with weapon proficiency slots) when the character is
    created. But even after a player character earns experience, he can still choose to
    specialize in a weapon, provided he has the weapon proficiency slots available."

    SPAAAAM :D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook

    But as you don't advance in the fighter class anymore :P ....

    I know 3.0/3.5 is a better (easier) concept specially for games to manage as you not that restricted like the dual-class in this example. Then again, dual-class with/without the proficiency (abuse) are usually pretty powerful in BG2. I currently tinker a Berserker to 9 (slightly xp-cap modified, just cause to not abuse it and I don't miss any XP anyway) and dual him to cleric in BG2; I can get in theory 24 Wisdom (!) which gives me a lot of bonus spells and I have the fighting potential of my 'old' fighter class, which is by accident focused in Flail of Ages :>

    edit:
    Bercon said:

    AFAIK in BG:EE grand mastery gives you 1 extra attack not 3/2 so it is juts 1/2 improvement over high mastery.

    Just read that too. Still a bit inconvenient as now BG1 & BG2(+tutu) & BGEE uses each a different prof tables. Though now it's only half an attack difference, which is 'okay' I assume. I'd rather have the limitation to not spent points in a class, which the player obviously don't have access to anymore.
    RAM021
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    It's better to create a Swashbuckler, train him to level 5, then dual to Fighter.
    You'll get :

    Fighter level 8
    +1 THACO / +1 damage
    -2 AC
    Thief shenanigans (Detect illusions or other)
    2 pips in two handed specialization.
    2 pips in another weapon (IE : Short Bows)
    5 pips in whatever 1H weapon you like.

    You'll lose on STR 18/XX, but that's what the tome is for.
    With the +3 two handed sword, you'll have something like :
    Base 13
    - 1 (Swash)
    - 3 (5 pips 2H specialization)
    - 1 (2 pips 2H fighting style)
    - 3 (+2 weapon)
    - 1 (Strength 18) or -3 (Strength 19)
    That's a base thaco of 2 / 4.

    Pretty much assured to hit.

    Also note that the 5 pips attack bonus, in BG;EE "just" grants +1/2 attack, not a full attack.
    A level 8 fighter, with 5 pips in 2H sword has 5/2 attacks, not 3 attacks.
    RAM021
  • LinkamusLinkamus Member Posts: 221
    This seems like a bug to me... If you've dualed from a fighter to a thief, you should never be able to dump any more pips past "proficient", as thieves naturally cannot be better than "proficient" in any given weapon type.

    I think @ZanathKariashi is mostly right.

    Has anyone reported this as a bug?
  • DeucetipherDeucetipher Member Posts: 521
    If looking to maximize your fighter potential, you'd be better off dualing at fighter 7 for an extra half attack. You can still hit 8 thief and get GM, but you'll have 1.5 base, .5 spec, .5 gm.
    RAM021
  • gogopostgogopost Member Posts: 19
    2nd edition handbook is bad reference point. It only talks about specialization level. Ie. a level past one proficient point. Baldur's Gate uses additions to those that allow for mastery, high mastery and grand mastery. Ad&d has always been very flexible ruleset, nothing is really written in stone and ultimate truth, especially proficiencies.
    RAM021
  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 831
    You'd be better off starting as a Swashbuckler, putting 3 points in Two-weapon fighting and then dualing to fighter at level 5... then you can put all 4 of the fighter points into one weapon type and a fifth as you level up... So that you have Grandmastery in a weapon style plus 3 pips in Two-weapons...
    MokonaRAM021
  • gogopostgogopost Member Posts: 19
    Vuki said:

    valky said:


    But I think there are much more strange behaviours of the dual-class system, for example why the hell do you forget your first class features for a while and then suddenly start to remember again? Ok, I know the philosophy behind this concept (you concentrate full time on your new class) but it is still really weird.

    Good luck implementing this into a pc game:

    'This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still has, at his fingertips, all the knowledge, abilities, and proficiencies of his old class. But if he uses any of his previous class's abilities during an encounter, he earns no experience for that encounter and only half experience for the adventure.'
  • RhymeRhyme Member Posts: 190
    Yes, it has been reported as a bug. There was another thread about this a little while ago. The arguments for either side can be summed up like this:

    - It's a bug. It should be fixed. Those of us who know it's a bug shouldn't have to wilfully choose not to add the point in order to avoid exploiting the bug.

    Versus.

    - I like it. It shouldn't be fixed. It's not hard for you to choose not to add the point if you don't like it.
    RAM021
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited December 2012
    Elendar said:

    You'd be better off starting as a Swashbuckler, putting 3 points in Two-weapon fighting and then dualing to fighter at level 5... then you can put all 4 of the fighter points into one weapon type and a fifth as you level up... So that you have Grandmastery in a weapon style plus 3 pips in Two-weapons...

    Interesting... I will probably try this. My only fear concerns this life pool, but this is also a good build :)

    The main problem will be that you won't have as much thief points to add... and the fact you say good bye to backstab
  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 831


    Interesting... I will probably try this. My only fear concerns this life pool, but this is also a good build :)

    The main problem will be that you won't have as much thief points to add... and the fact you say good bye to backstab

    Yes... the idea is more to increase your fighter skills rather than adding thief abilities.. You can still get to level 8 fighter after taking the 5 levels in Swashbuckler...
    RAM021
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited December 2012
    So :

    Swashy 5 / fighter 8 :

    AC 4 (18 dex) ; Thac0 : 6 (with standard weapon + 19 strength) ; 82 hit points.
    + 25 x 5 to use in thief skills

    fighter 6 / thief 9 :

    AC6 (18 dex) ; Thac0 : 9 (with standard weapon + 19 strength) ; 104 hit points
    Ability to use backstab
    Possibility to max 3 thief proficiency


    Swashy 5 / fighter 8 is better in term of damage / to hit, but you can say goodbye to backstab.

    I guess there is a choice to make everywhere...



    RAM021
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    You're forgetting that a Swash 6/Fighter 8 has +0,5 APR (5/2) vs a Fighter 6 / Thief 9.
    You get -2 AC, +0,5 APR, +3 Thaco, +1 damage.
    vs
    x4 backstab, +75 skill points, 22 Max Hp
    RAM021
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited December 2012
    Aranthys said:

    You're forgetting that a Swash 6/Fighter 8 has +0,5 APR (5/2) vs a Fighter 6 / Thief 9.
    You get -2 AC, +0,5 APR, +3 Thaco, +1 damage.
    vs
    x4 backstab, +75 skill points, 22 Max Hp


    Yes, I did not list all the advantages... hard choice, still (it depends if you prefer a large hp pool or better attack possibilities).
  • gogopostgogopost Member Posts: 19
    Elendar said:

    You'd be better off starting as a Swashbuckler, putting 3 points in Two-weapon fighting and then dualing to fighter at level 5... then you can put all 4 of the fighter points into one weapon type and a fifth as you level up... So that you have Grandmastery in a weapon style plus 3 pips in Two-weapons...

    I just tested this, you can archive it by dualing into fighter at lvl-2.
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