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Indeed you can have Grand Mastery (*****) in BG1 ...

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  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited December 2012
    gogopost said:


    Elendar said:

    You'd be better off starting as a Swashbuckler, putting 3 points in Two-weapon fighting and then dualing to fighter at level 5... then you can put all 4 of the fighter points into one weapon type and a fifth as you level up... So that you have Grandmastery in a weapon style plus 3 pips in Two-weapons...

    I just tested this, you can archive it by dualing into fighter at lvl-2.
    You'll loose the level 5 swashbuckler advantages, but you will gain more HP

    102 HP at Swashy level 2 / fighter 8

  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    But then you don't get Use Any Item at epic levels in BG2 !!

    RAM021
  • VukiVuki Member Posts: 36
    Rhyme said:

    Yes, it has been reported as a bug. There was another thread about this a little while ago. The arguments for either side can be summed up like this:

    - It's a bug. It should be fixed. Those of us who know it's a bug shouldn't have to wilfully choose not to add the point in order to avoid exploiting the bug.

    Versus.

    - I like it. It shouldn't be fixed. It's not hard for you to choose not to add the point if you don't like it.

    Only problem is that it is always working in this way in BG2. BGEE modify BG1 in a way that it implements BG2 systems into BG1. Based on that logic the way it is working is the proper way and it is not a bug. Do not forget that this game is not BG1, it is BGEE.

  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    rdarken said:

    But then you don't get Use Any Item at epic levels in BG2 !!


    Of course, this is only for Bg1 ;-)

    Bg2:EE does not exist yet ;-)

  • SilenceSilence Member Posts: 437
    edited December 2012
    Interesting observation from the OP!

    Though I can see the argument, I definitely do not consider this a bug. I consider it a legitimate use of the rules. After all, as long as you have fighter as a base class, you should be entitled to having the benefits of being a level X fighter even after you've switched classes. That's the point of dual class, isn't it? It's supposed to be different and in many ways better than multi-class.

    As there is currently no level-based limitation on weapon specialization (just a limit on proficiencies) I'd argue that a dual class fighter x/thief x+1 should have weapon specialization if he has the proficiency slots.

    Some would argue this is not balanced. I would argue it is for the following three reasons:

    1. For most of the game, you are currently dual-classed and working towards your new class. This means you don't have weapon specialization for the majority of the game.

    2. If you dual class early, you miss out on a half-attack (level 7) an another half-attack (level 13). A real fighter would cripple you in a face-to-face matchup. I don't consider dual-classing at level 6 smart for this reason. It's quitting before you get a major benefit.

    3. If you dual class early, you lose a major chunk of THAC0.

  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    Silence said:

    I\
    Though I can see the argument, I definitely do not consider this a bug. I consider it a legitimate use of the rules. After all, as long as you have fighter as a base class, you should be entitled to having the benefits of being a level X fighter even after you've switched classes. That's the point of dual class, isn't it? It's supposed to be different and in many ways better than multi-class.

    But one of the restrictions of dual class is that you're not supposed to be able to progress any further in your first class once you give it up. Since specialization is Fighter-only, going to another class should prevent further specialization: You should only get the benefits from what you already earned.

    It would be like getting another spell level if you dual classed from mage before getting them all. You're supposed to be able to use all the ones you earned before dual classing, but cannot earn more. Same concept.

    DragonspearElectricMonkRAM021
  • SilenceSilence Member Posts: 437
    edited December 2012
    I don't think it's quite the same as spell levels. The reason being that spell levels are level-dependent benefits whereas ranks in weapon specialization are not limited by level. Provided you are level 1, all that limits your investment into a particular weapon is the total amount of weapon proficiencies you have. You can get it at level 9 or level 13, if you want.

    Now, if you're considering other benefits of magic specialization and not spell level, it's still a little different. Specialist mages who dual class actually do retain most of the characteristics of magic specialization (bonus spells per level, barred schools, etc.) in their second class even if they cannot advance in spells per level. They can learn new spells, too, and I think the learning bonus applies. If magic specialization carries over, why shouldn't weapon specialization too?

    If we're going by the argument that only pure-class fighters should get weapon specialization, that is more complex. In pencil and paper 2nd edition, you got full weapon specialization at level 1...I think the understanding was that benefit would be carried over to any class you switched into later. Would you force a fighter to lose weapon specialization when he becomes a thief? I don't think most DMs would. It kind of defeats the purpose of being a fighter, since that's really the only exclusive benefit offered by the class.

    Of course, vanilla 2nd edition didn't have multiple ranks and levels like BG:EE does. These ranks came along with the combat and tactics/player's option system. I don't think Combat and Tactics specifies weapon specialization is barred to dual-class fighters...I know that Player's Option permits any class (even non-fighters) to buy into the system. So again - it's complicated, and the rules are not clear.

    Regardless, I can totally see it your way too (and lots of other people can). My point is that both ways are arguable.

    Post edited by Silence on
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    I see your point in the difference between spell levels, but that was just an example.

    The BG Manual says "Note that only Fighters can hone their weapon skills beyond 'specialized.'" When you gain that extra point, you aren't increasing your weapon skills as a Fighter. You are increasing your skill as a Thief, which means specialization (and, in my opinion, further specialization) are off-limits.

    That's my interpretation, anyway.

    DragonspearRAM021
  • NukeninNukenin Member Posts: 327
    What some may view as a bug, others may view as sacred and sacrosanct. -.-

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    Baldur's Gate 1 had it implemented correctly, so I'd say it's a bug. BG2 did a lot of things that shouldn't have happened.

    Dragonspear
  • valkyvalky Member Posts: 386
    ..like stealing 2 rings of protection+2 from Elminster, cause he is a "different" guy after the 1st meeting or pickpocketing Gaxx (cause it has no fingers at all to wear 2 rings and by accident it has a 2nd ring in the loot-table) or put 'silently' a shitload of traps in front of Dragon...IMO the latter still wins. There is no way in any world, that a Dragon would watch me laying devices of doom & destruction only to be getting insulted thereafter.

    Aaaah, I forgot: Feeblemind >> dragon. An ancient being, with such immense wisdom and knowledge got stupefied by a mere spell. (though in that case surely IWD2 wins, cause you could disintegrate the temple guardian ^^)

    Anyway, I really don't care what a player does use or abuse to his/her advantage, but at least in the shitty character creation should it NOT be possible to spent 5 pips in any proficiency. As the fighter - at least by going this ruleset - is getting the next ApR at level 9.
    By DnD rules I think it's learning the ways to fight, but you have to give a word (to your DM) if you intend to do so. That aside...I really do give a happy pika to everyone, either use or abuse it :P guess the engine made it possible, still it's not legitimate. *point*

  • BeowulfBeowulf Member Posts: 236
    You are all forgetting the most cheese head of all builds - Wizard Slayer for massive Magic Resistance and then duel to a Thief at 20 something level and the skill Use Any Item which cancels the Wizard slayer only draw back- he can not use many useful potions and gear... I am tempted to make such a muchkin build but I am now seeing a rude Black Guard beach Bash

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    A wizard slayer caps out at 30% MR (unlike the monks 78%). Not at ALL worth it.

  • OurQuestIsVainOurQuestIsVain Member Posts: 201
    Must have changed this for EE, very cool. I always wondered why you couldn't do it in vanilla.

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    Problem is, 7 is the extra half attack. Not sure if GM is the BG1 or BG2 variation either. If the latter, then Fighter 7 is better.

    RAM021
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