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Whyfore the hostile puppies?

Ronin13Ronin13 Member Posts: 53
Okay, okay. It's late. Uh, well it's so late now that it's essentially "early", but whatever...

I love canines, my wife & I have 3 of them at home, including a Siberian Husky. I've always loved wolves as well so I'm hopelessly biased here and I love Baldur's Gate as well, so this isn't a bash on it. But there are times when I'm smashing through a rampaging pack of wolves and thinking, "Okay, so if there were any animals in the real world that would Get Out of Dodge when the Big Bad Adventuring party comes through, it would be Wolves. Why do RPG-Makers always give wolves such a bad rap? Wolves in the Real World only got a bad reputation because they were so clever & sneaky about killing farmer's livestock. That's where their bad rap came from. Not being mankillers."

Yes, yes, It's a game, I know. But obviously they thought a bit about these things, because Black & Brown Bears can be avoided. Why not regular wolves? Also keep in mind I'm not talking about Worgs, Dire Wolves, Dread Wolves, etc... they are sentient & evil.

(Rereads own post). Yup. It's late. Time for bed. But I'm throwing the post out anyway because I can't possibly be the *only* one out there who's thought about this. :D

swnmcmlxitypo_tilly

Comments

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    You're not the only one, don't worry. ;)

    There was actually a post a while ago (maybe a few years ago) on another forum where someone was advocating for equal animal rights in video games.

    If you need a reason for it, you could say that the worgs and dread wolves became the pack leaders for all of the normal wolves along the Sword Coast, which is why the wolves are so aggressive.

  • Ronin13Ronin13 Member Posts: 53
    @Aosaw That's a good in-game explanation for their behavior. Heh, on the other end of the spectrum, I played the game with a couple of guys who went out of their way to kill every single animal they could. Chickens, Squirrels, Bats, anything they came across. Needless to say, my Ranger was not amused. :P

    I don't know about 'equal animal rights', but a bit more realistic animal behavior would be appreciated. Still, as I said, your rationale works well enough.

  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455
    edited December 2012
    [off topic]

    Siberian Husky?? Nice! Very beautiful dog!!
    I love canines too, I had a female Belgian Shepard and a cute little female Pincher ׂ(Cancer,both...), So right now I'm dogless :(
    Hopefully one day I'll bring Siberian Husky or one of the Shepard types (Belgian/German/Swiss)

    [/off topic]

    Post edited by mch202 on
  • Ronin13Ronin13 Member Posts: 53
    @mch202 LOL it's only moderately off-topic. I'm okay with that. Maya (the Husky in my avatar who is in the process of grooming her baby, Ivy) was a rescue that my wife & I got from a co-worker. He got her from a neighbor who was essentially abusing her, locking her up for 10hrs a day in the bathroom while he was at work, feeding her Rum & Cokes because he thought it was funny to watch her stumble around, called her a different name every day because he got a kick out of that too. And it turns out that before him, she was originally bought by a guy who got her to help his relationship with his boyfriend. Which... is kinda like having a baby to help your marriage, it mostly doesn't.

    My wife's co-worker loved her, but lived in an apartment in downtown LA, not a good environment for a Husky. At the time we were looking for a 3rd dog and decided to give it a try. Taking care of her was initially a nightmare. She was basically feral, knew no commands and wasn't really even housetrained (at 6 months old). She was hyper, nervous, skittish, her kill list of our possessions got to an impressive level and she was driving our middle dog, Jo so crazy that she wasn't eating or drinking for days. I ended up having to feed & water Jo by hand.

    But we stuck with it, and after nearly 3 years I can safely say that Maya is everything you'd want a dog to be. Obedient, mindful, intelligent & very protective of her pack. So much so that when we got our newest girl, Ivy, Maya immediately adopted her as her own baby. Maya had her housetrained in a week. We've had next to no Puppy Issues with Ivy because of Maya.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    I have this same problem when a game forces me to kill cats of any size or kind.

    As for the wolves, dire wolves, wargs, and vampire wolves as fantasy staples, I think that it goes not only to the historical significance of wolves and coyotes as rival predators to humans (they will take your food, your childrens' food, and even your children as food in a subsistence economy/environment), but also to the legendary representations of the archetype of "the big bad wolf". Almost half of the fairy tales in Western European lore reference "the big bad wolf" as the child-eating, don't wander into the forest for goodness' sake, villain.

    As for the cats as fantasy villains, I can't think of any story archetypes for it, other than maybe Alice's Cheshire, who delights in misleading and confusing, but, I would think that early human observations of the cat's ruthless and sadistic behavior towards its prey, could have triggered a fear archetype for the feline type - especially when you figure in the tactile sensations of being clawed and bitten at the cat's superspeed velocity and frequency of movement and dexterity, not to mention the fact that it is an ambush predator that will come at you out of nowhere if it wants to.

    There would be similar human archetypal fears associated with spiders and snakes. Interestingly, it seems that every human-as-biological-prey-animal (i.e., every human), identifies and associates with one of his or her predator species, and even loves individuals from that species as familiars or animal companions. @Ronin13, for you, it's the canines; for me, it's the felines, although, I also am capable of a deep bond with a canine.

    I totally don't get people who feel the same for spiders and snakes, especially spiders.

    Canines, felines, reptiles, arachnids, and also ursines. These phyla all were threats to our lives and killed us regularly in prehistory.

    There is probably a deep psychological insight to be had from which of these you feel attracted to, and which of these repulse you to the core of your being. Of the five, I would say that the canines have the deepest and longest standing potential to bond with humanity as allies and companions, but that the felines are rapidly catching up.

  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    And this fear is passed from generation to generation.

    There are children for example who don't fear spiders, but when they see adults react on spiders in a certain way they copy that behaviour.

    On the other hand fear of those animals (not spiders only) have found there way into fairytales and stories of any kind - so we teach our children from the very beginning that they are evil/bad and must be feared.

    "Little Red Riding Hood" and the bad wolf

    And you only get to know the truth about Red when you watch "Once upon a time!"


    "The Wolf and the Seven Young Goats"
    "The Three Little Pigs "
    "The Jungle Book"

    (and I guess if I made a complete list of every story ever in which the villain is one of those animals that'd be a VERY LONG list indeed)

    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    @Shandyr, first, LOL at your spoiler about Red in Ouat!

    Second, I think that it is very important to realize that all these creature types are, IRL, potentially deadly. Also, a "blank slate" infant does not seem to have an inborn fear of these creatures who can kill it. A toddler who giggles, smiles, and starts walking up to wolves, panthers, bears, spiders, or snakes is going to very soon be a DEAD toddler.

    That's why our stories that villify these creatures, and instill fear of them at a very, very early age at an archetypal level, are so important to the survival of humanity, which basically has absolutely nothing going for it from an evolutionary standpoint except brain power, as expressed through language, and through that, to "culture", i.e., archetypal knowledge expressed in the Jungian "collective unconscious".

    Through the "magics" of language, memetic culture, and the blank slate infancy, humanity has become the dominant species of our planet. As in, humanity is the quadratic, exponential, DOMINANT species of, not only this planet, but of any space within light-years of here.

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    All the hostile dogs in the game are good aligned. They are trying to kill you because you are a child of Bhaal

    BelgarathMTHtypo_tilly
  • Ronin13Ronin13 Member Posts: 53
    Thanks for the thoughts guys! I agree that fear is instilled in children from early on, because, let's face it. Physically, we suck. And we take for-ever to get to a point where we suck. (Our maturation time is absurd compared to animals) But from everything I've read, Wolves in particular were hardly a threat to our lives, only our livelyhoods, which yes, indirectly is a threat to our lives, but you know what I mean. :D

    As a matter of fact, it's the lack of aggression towards us that enabled us to get the domesticated dog out of them. And to put it back in a game context, I find it ironic that wolves are always aggressive, while bears are not, but bears, oh my, are *so* much more aggressive IRL!

    @ajwz another interesting idea. But that idea competes with @Aosaw, so I guess now it's our fanfic duty as a forum community to come up with the 'official' unofficial rationale behind wolves behavior. Are they attacking your party because of who you are? Or is it because the normal wolves are being dominated by the intelligent, evil, wolf-kindred? A combination?

  • Arabus13Arabus13 Member Posts: 102
    edited December 2012
    The other day while exploring one of the maps, a group of wild dogs attacked my party. My grandson (who was setting in my lap) suddenly got my attention when he stated, "Papa! Don't kill the doggies!"

    I tried to explain that they attacked me first, and I was just defending myself. He would have none of that! He actually tried to grab the mouse to keep me from directing the party members actions!

    So, my 3 year old grandson got my party wiped by a pack of dogs.....

    mch202
  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455
    @Ronin13 you did a good deed... she is a lucky dog for having a caring family such as yours, I don't understand how some people can be so cruel to animals.. it makes me angry!

  • Ronin13Ronin13 Member Posts: 53
    @Arabus13 From a Personal standpoint, that's adorable. From a Gamer standpoint... not so much. :D

    @mch202 Cruelty in any form to anyone or anything cannot be justified.

  • swnmcmlxiswnmcmlxi Member Posts: 297
    Ronin13 said:

    Yes, yes, It's a game, I know. But obviously they thought a bit about these things, because Black & Brown Bears can be avoided. Why not regular wolves?

    Total agreement from this borzoi owner. And a question: It should be possible to mod this, right? By editing some attribute in the CRE file, like the Allegiance attribute or something, in NI or DLTCEP?

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    Equal animal rights and all that fluff aside, I'd rather kill a wolf before it jumps at my throat. Animals are still animals.

  • Ronin13Ronin13 Member Posts: 53
    @swnmcmlxi My understanding of the underbelly of the game is limited, those with greater knowledge than I must comment.

    @Kitteh_On_A_Cloud Oh, I'm not advocating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_Man Behavior by *any* means! If an animal threatens the life of me or my loved ones, it's getting taken out. All I was saying earlier is that the amount of wolves attacking men is historically insignificant. The reverse, sadly is not true.

    swnmcmlxi
  • swnmcmlxiswnmcmlxi Member Posts: 297
    Well, I did a very brief (it's getting late here) comparison of wolves and black bears in Near Infinity, and they at least had different Allegiance and Default Script attributes. Tomorrow, I'll try to edit the wolf attributes and see what happens (unless an experienced modder does it first, which would be soooo much better...).

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    Is editing the scripts of the wolves really necessary? I mean, however small it might be, in the beginning I go for every experience point I can get.

  • CzarnyCzarny Member Posts: 41
    edited December 2012
    I'm not 100% sure on this, but doesn't the hunter you meet in the north part of AR2800 give you some closure as to why are the animals so aggressive?
    Something to do with the iron shortage making people more desperate to survive and decimating the local populations of deer and whatnot(also, you need metal tools to farm, while all you need to hunt is a snare and a bow and arrows), making wolves and other predators just as desperate and hungry, having to switch to secondary prey, which would include humans(tons of them in the forests anyway, by the looks of BG areas).
    I suppose that bears, being omnivores, can support their diets with roots, nuts, berries and the occasional fish for certain species, and as such aren't as desperate to chase after every mushroom picker that they see.
    Now, I'm writing this completely off the top of my head, and I could be wrong, but even if he doesn't say that I usually accept this as the the reason for rabid wolves attacking well armed parties.

  • ImperatorImperator Member Posts: 154
    During WW2 the Soviets conscripted all the capable men and guns from small villages, and wolves took immediate advantage of the situation, snatching children from backyards and walking freely in the villages. Combine this with what @Czarny said and you got yourself some aggressive and hungry wolves.

    Czarny
  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    Czarny said:

    I'm not 100% sure on this, but doesn't the hunter you meet in the north part of AR2800 give you some closure as to why are the animals so aggressive?
    Something to do with the iron shortage making people more desperate to survive and decimating the local populations of deer and whatnot(also, you need metal tools to farm, while all you need to hunt is a snare and a bow and arrows), making wolves and other predators just as desperate and hungry, having to switch to secondary prey, which would include humans(tons of them in the forests anyway, by the looks of BG areas).
    I suppose that bears, being omnivores, can support their diets with roots, nuts, berries and the occasional fish for certain species, and as such aren't as desperate to chase after every mushroom picker that they see.
    Now, I'm writing this completely off the top of my head, and I could be wrong, but even if he doesn't say that I usually accept this as the the reason for rabid wolves attacking well armed parties.

    This actually makes sense lore-wise. Kids need to pay better attention to stories told to them nowadays. :p

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