@Zutti Bards can wear Ion Stones as helmet and without any fixpack they also give crit immunity.
Fair enough. If you use a mod to add items to the game, but do not use the appropriate mod to fix an engine exploit where those items provide a significant benefit beyond their intended bonuses, you can eliminate one downside to the bard class.
You should probably just shadowkeeper a helmet onto your bard's head at that point, though.
Since when do you need a mod to get ioun stones? Or are you talking about BG1?
BG1 only, seeing as that's what we're playing
BG2 is another beast entirely when it comes to these classes, and I think their relative power fluctuates as they gain access to new weapons, spells and abilities. In BG1, however, F/M wins hands down in almost every category.
I still think a Berserker can take a F/M with the right potions and enrage protecting him from horror / confusion spells.
There are still a number of ways that a mage can impair a Berserker, such as Blindness, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Slow.* Not to mention a Wand of Polymorphing.
(If necessary precede the polymorph with Dispel Magic, Spellthrust, Greater Malison etc., to strip potion effects.)
*I would assume the 'zerker will be using Free Action in some form, so not sure if Slow will work, especially if the Free Action is from an item...
Anyway, I would still put my money on the spellcaster.
I still think a Berserker can take a F/M with the right potions and enrage protecting him from horror / confusion spells.
Fighter/Mage is casting Invisibility! It's Super Effective! Berserker is using "Flail blindly for unseen opponent!" It's not very effective. Fighter/Mage is using "Wait patiently for berserk to run out!" It's Super Effective! Berserker is using "Weep in bitter, bitter frustration!" It's not very effective. Fighter/Mage is using "Cast Crowd Control spells on the sucker when his berserk ends!" It's Super Effective! Berserker faints!
The ability to enter a berserker rage is insignificant next to the power of the Force Weave.
Also Bounty Hunters are super cheesy compared to most other classes with their traps.
They're arguably obsolenscent, and unless you rest-spam, you're talking about a pure class thief with worse skills. And these are traps you can only lay in advance, in a single location that only work in that specific area, that are restricted in the total number you can set per day. Bounty Hunter traps aren't cheesy, being able to spam rest to set up for an encounter that you know is coming is, and even then, how much more cheesy than Skull Trap?
@Pantalion You could also simply cast Otiluke's on the Berserker and prepare a barrage of spells against which Rage + potions can't protect.
Although, actually, come to think of it, if a Berserker uses a scroll of Protection from Magic or drinks two Potions of Magic Protection (100%) then the F/M is simply going to have to disappear and wait it out. The F/M could use a wand of monster summoning while waiting for the scroll or potions protection to end. Just gulp down potions of invisibility or use the ring of invisibility after summoning the monsters.
The bounty hunter is the best thief, flat out...a few less skill points overall, though hardly crippling since they get a skill bonus that compensates for 3 levels of missed points, but DOUBLE the traps per day that a plain thief does, and all the other benefits a thief enjoys. At the end of the day, a Bounty is only slightly behind a plain thief in skill progression (at level 10, the thief only has about a 1 level's worth of bonus over them, and once you reach level 12, you've effectively maxed all the important skills anyway so it no longer matters, and the BH is simply better from there on out.
1 or 2 well placed traps can easily turn a battle from a tough fight into a joke. While you can't do much about foreknowledge (which is true for EVERY class, once you've been through an area before), as long as you don't pull some stupid cheese like pre-trapping before an enemy appears or turns hostile, it's all legit.
The main thing is, a bounty hunter can do everything a thief can, except he also has an extra set of traps to fall back on...and while the 16-20 level one is less then thrilling (ugh) the other BH traps are decent, and Maze is just broken, since it gives time for buffs to expire, followed by the target, which you now know legitimately where they'll return, to say hello to a spike or time stop trap or a 21+ hard hitting with dot, save or die snare, which you can then being the smiting upon the enemies while they're reeling from the spike trap, or frozen in time, or getting nailed by a nasty dot every round, if they didn't die outright.
Most of the other time, you can just hit and fade BS dangerous enemies to death, or just straight up kill mooks.
Even after the nerf to BH Special traps, they're still awesome, they're just a little bit trickier to use effectively since you can't throw them anymore.
And in the above vs berserker thing...the Berserker could just cast detect invisibility off Albruin (doesn't have to be active, just equipped) and start pelting the F/M with arrows of dispelling, cold and/or detonation (that the PnP Berserker wouldn't have been able to use).
I don't know how you can even compare multi/dual class characters with single class characters in this game. They generally win in almost every case due to the way the leveling system works. Generally multi/dual class will end up only one or two levels behind the single class characters, but with the benefits of two different classes. A Bard is a hybrid single class similar to the Ranger/Paladin. A Ranger is not as strong as a fighter/druid and a Paladin is not as strong as a fighter/cleric. It would be interesting to know if D&D was designed with multi/dual classing in mind or if it was just added on later. It seems that classes like Ranger/Paladin/Bard were supposed to fill that role and in truth are more well balanced than their multi/dual class counterparts.
Multiclasses are only currently powerful because demi-human racial caps aren't implemented. Most of them would cap out at like ...9/15 for a halfling F/T, or 12/15 for a elf F/M (or a Half-orc 10/4 F/C). There are rules for going higher then the caps, but all of them apply only to single class demi-humans with extremely high scores in the class's core ability.
It's similar to dual-classing, but multiclasses only require the minimum attributes for the class to be met, while dual-classing requires MUCH higher stats in order to become a class. (A F/T just needs 9 str, 9 dex...but a fighter wanting to dual into a thief needs 15 str, and 17 dex). High rolls are pretty rare.
And the way you make your character is even different. First you roll your stats. Then you look through the races and pick which you want that you meet the requirements for, THEN you pick a class from that races allowed classes that you meet the requirements for.
BG does stats after you pick your race and class, and flubs the rolls to give you the minimums in a stat if you rolled too low (and letting you move points around on a 1 for 1 basis).
Also, in PnP, you can dual-class ANY class, as long as you meet the requirements to do so and are willing to bare the down time, do so a max of 4 times (one class from each pool). Wanna be a NG Ranger 9/Bard10/Cleric11/Mage12? Sure, though you'd need 15, 17, 15, 17,17, 15 to do it, and that's a LOT of downtime. Well..that and the fact a human is at major risk of dropping dead from over use of haste spells, restorations, potions of speed, wish spells, vs the other races who can usually spare a couple decades (except half-orcs, who are just screwed).
And PnP bards are A LOT better then the ones in BG.
And don't even get me started on the HLAs...they're shoddy, thrown together mess that should never have happened in their present form, but due to extreme time constraints they pushed everything out and called it done. (it's a large part of why game balance goes to $^%# once you hit 3 mil xp, someone just skimmed through the high level manual and implemented as close as they could remember, and for everything else, just made crap up).
Comments
BG2 is another beast entirely when it comes to these classes, and I think their relative power fluctuates as they gain access to new weapons, spells and abilities. In BG1, however, F/M wins hands down in almost every category.
Or a Kensai/assasin/thief/bounty hunter could one shot a F/M with Kai/backstab and the staff of striking.
Also Bounty Hunters are super cheesy compared to most other classes with their traps.
(If necessary precede the polymorph with Dispel Magic, Spellthrust, Greater Malison etc., to strip potion effects.)
*I would assume the 'zerker will be using Free Action in some form, so not sure if Slow will work, especially if the Free Action is from an item...
Anyway, I would still put my money on the spellcaster.
It's Super Effective!
Berserker is using "Flail blindly for unseen opponent!"
It's not very effective.
Fighter/Mage is using "Wait patiently for berserk to run out!"
It's Super Effective!
Berserker is using "Weep in bitter, bitter frustration!"
It's not very effective.
Fighter/Mage is using "Cast Crowd Control spells on the sucker when his berserk ends!"
It's Super Effective!
Berserker faints!
The ability to enter a berserker rage is insignificant next to the power of the
ForceWeave. Doesn't Stoneskin last for eight hours a day and get determined based on number of hits, rather than damage dealt? They're arguably obsolenscent, and unless you rest-spam, you're talking about a pure class thief with worse skills. And these are traps you can only lay in advance, in a single location that only work in that specific area, that are restricted in the total number you can set per day. Bounty Hunter traps aren't cheesy, being able to spam rest to set up for an encounter that you know is coming is, and even then, how much more cheesy than Skull Trap?Although, actually, come to think of it, if a Berserker uses a scroll of Protection from Magic or drinks two Potions of Magic Protection (100%) then the F/M is simply going to have to disappear and wait it out. The F/M could use a wand of monster summoning while waiting for the scroll or potions protection to end. Just gulp down potions of invisibility or use the ring of invisibility after summoning the monsters.
1 or 2 well placed traps can easily turn a battle from a tough fight into a joke. While you can't do much about foreknowledge (which is true for EVERY class, once you've been through an area before), as long as you don't pull some stupid cheese like pre-trapping before an enemy appears or turns hostile, it's all legit.
The main thing is, a bounty hunter can do everything a thief can, except he also has an extra set of traps to fall back on...and while the 16-20 level one is less then thrilling (ugh) the other BH traps are decent, and Maze is just broken, since it gives time for buffs to expire, followed by the target, which you now know legitimately where they'll return, to say hello to a spike or time stop trap or a 21+ hard hitting with dot, save or die snare, which you can then being the smiting upon the enemies while they're reeling from the spike trap, or frozen in time, or getting nailed by a nasty dot every round, if they didn't die outright.
Most of the other time, you can just hit and fade BS dangerous enemies to death, or just straight up kill mooks.
Even after the nerf to BH Special traps, they're still awesome, they're just a little bit trickier to use effectively since you can't throw them anymore.
And in the above vs berserker thing...the Berserker could just cast detect invisibility off Albruin (doesn't have to be active, just equipped) and start pelting the F/M with arrows of dispelling, cold and/or detonation (that the PnP Berserker wouldn't have been able to use).
It's similar to dual-classing, but multiclasses only require the minimum attributes for the class to be met, while dual-classing requires MUCH higher stats in order to become a class. (A F/T just needs 9 str, 9 dex...but a fighter wanting to dual into a thief needs 15 str, and 17 dex). High rolls are pretty rare.
And the way you make your character is even different.
First you roll your stats. Then you look through the races and pick which you want that you meet the requirements for, THEN you pick a class from that races allowed classes that you meet the requirements for.
BG does stats after you pick your race and class, and flubs the rolls to give you the minimums in a stat if you rolled too low (and letting you move points around on a 1 for 1 basis).
Also, in PnP, you can dual-class ANY class, as long as you meet the requirements to do so and are willing to bare the down time, do so a max of 4 times (one class from each pool). Wanna be a NG Ranger 9/Bard10/Cleric11/Mage12? Sure, though you'd need 15, 17, 15, 17,17, 15 to do it, and that's a LOT of downtime. Well..that and the fact a human is at major risk of dropping dead from over use of haste spells, restorations, potions of speed, wish spells, vs the other races who can usually spare a couple decades (except half-orcs, who are just screwed).
And PnP bards are A LOT better then the ones in BG.
And don't even get me started on the HLAs...they're shoddy, thrown together mess that should never have happened in their present form, but due to extreme time constraints they pushed everything out and called it done. (it's a large part of why game balance goes to $^%# once you hit 3 mil xp, someone just skimmed through the high level manual and implemented as close as they could remember, and for everything else, just made crap up).