Skip to content

Auto trap detection

ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,736
edited August 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
Change the player-unfriendly trap mechanics in BG.


An RPG game without traps can hardly be called an RPG game. BG does have vicious traps awaiting a careless foot, but the implementation leaves to desire better.

In order to avoid springing a trap the thief has to crawl slowly, stopping every several steps to detect a potential threat. Worse yet, ONLY the thief can seek them out (I wouldn't really consider Detect Traps spell or the monk). It isn't too bad when you already know what trap is where, but exploring the area for the first time becomes a tedious chore, because quite often a trap is well capable of killing the victim instantly.

Yes, there are workarounds - press CTRL-4, save and reload, or install "No Traps and Locks" tweak, but there is no option to play without metagaming yet dynamically. Some may argue that exploring newfound dungeons should be slow and cautious. Agreed, but definitely not as slow as what we have.


Few months ago I had made the "Passive Trap Detection" tweak, to help me out with playing BG1 part of BGT. Whenever an active trap sees a PC within 15' range (half the vision radius), it displays "Trap Detected" string over self every 2-3 rounds. It doesn't become visible - i.e. red - only warns the player to pay attention here, so you still need to get your thief over there to detect it with the "disarm traps" skill. Once detected, the string changes to the trap's type, e.g. "Arrow Trap Detected" or "Fireball Ward Detected".

The logic is pretty straightforward - a seasoned adventurer ought to notice that something is amiss in front of him. He/she doesn't instantly know what exactly, but is aware that the place is dangerous and more throughout examination is called for.

I have tested this tweak through the entire BG1, and have found it to be near perfect gameplay-wise - the thief remains as vital for trap surviving as before, but the game can be played more smoothly, no frustrating delays to scout ahead the entire area before proceeding to kill its inhabitants without a fear of sudden death. The ability to know trap's type also allows to set it off by sending in an appropriately prepared character, if thief's skill is not high enough to remove it - indeed, disarming is more difficult in DnD. Now I only need to fix a couple of small bugs and it is ready to go.


That is what I wish to see in BGEE - trapped regions and containers give off some kind of warning when somebody approaches them, and reddened traps also provide information about their type, allowing to prepare for them.

My tweak is purely script-based, and requires to be installed as late as possible due to some limitations, but if made on the engine level, it should be 99% mod-friendly.
Tanthalasevil_apeShinMoiraMedillenLugeRobachickencube89AndreaColomboNecdilzorreedmilfamJamesEpitomyofShynessMoomintrollHvitrEbrithil_Q_GriegTr_ondmattinmJalilyGrandeC[Deleted User]TJ_HookerJodien37Jodien37EdvinLaflammedjcCrevsDaakDragonspear

Comments

  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    @Ardanis
    That's a very nice idea. Hopefully a similar engine-based feature can be considered/implemented.

    As for your Range() check, is it

    [code]OR(2)
    Range([PC.0.0.THIEF_ALL],15)
    Range([PC.0.0.MONK],15)[/code]

    or any class? The class check would make more sense don't you think?

    Not sure about the [PC] identifier, could be better to have just [GOODCUTOFF] instead.

    Does it detect all trap scripts via complicated WeiDU soup so it can patch mod-added ones too, or only vanilla ones?
  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,736
    It is LOS([GOODCUTOFF],15) atm, but that's under creative consideration.
    Does it detect all trap scripts via complicated WeiDU soup so it can patch mod-added ones too, or only vanilla ones?
    WeiDU
    AndreaColombo
  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    Right line of sight... I guess range works through wallgroups and impassable objects
    Ardanis said:

    WeiDU

    Cool

  • MedillenMedillen Member Posts: 632
    I like that. Your argumentation was valid and your solution appropriate (something rare in feature request !! :D)

    I hope some devs see this and give a big thumb up !
    CrevsDaak
  • LugeLuge Member Posts: 90
    I agree with the suggestion.

    I'm not sure about the solution, but it's a good start!

    L.
  • Roller12Roller12 Member Posts: 437
    Eh? no need for heavy tweaking. All that needs to be done is to check for traps every tick instead of every round. (Or other more appropriate time) Once/round is indeed too slow. This would allow trap detection without even stopping.
    jamoecw
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    Someone give a promote to the OP, pronto!
    CrevsDaak
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    Isn't there an AI to set for Thief so that they automatically seek out traps? If not, one could be written and still allow the game to be played the way it was intended.
  • LugeLuge Member Posts: 90
    edited August 2012

    Isn't there an AI to set for Thief so that they automatically seek out traps? If not, one could be written and still allow the game to be played the way it was intended.

    That's not really the problem. It's that the thief still has to move into position, wait 6+ seconds for a trap detection cycle, move forward two steps, wait again, move again, and so on. On top of that, since trap detection isn't perfect (unless the thief has 100% Traps, which is unlikely), usually it's best to wait at least 18 seconds so that the computer has a few tries at seeing it.

    The result? A tedious and awkward crawl across a map that might not even have any traps in it to begin with.

    At higher levels this isn't so much of a problem as characters have more hitpoints and higher saving throws, but at lower levels a magic missile trap can be deadly, to say nothing of a lightning bolt trap in a confined space (Cloakwood mines) or the many web traps in the Cloakwood Forest and Cloakwood random encounters.

    L.

    HvitrEbrithilGrandeCTJ_HookerSirK8
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    I like the tweak.where can I find it?
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    @Grammarsalad - we were hoping in BG:EE :D
    HvitrEbrithil
  • JamesJames Member Posts: 110

    I like the tweak.where can I find it?

    there is a script in atweaks mod http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/readme_atweaks.html which has trap detection on when out of combat there is also one for bard singing while out of combat which I use a lot.

    But I think this is an even better idea (although I think it should only be if you have a thief in the party) I'm sure @ardanis can be convinced to host it somewhere or make it part of kit revisions?
  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,736
    I was considering to include it into Quest Revisions, which I want to see ready by Christmas, but may as well try BG2Tweaks. We'll see. First things first, I need to set up my modding lab again, old motherboard has died recently.
  • AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513

    @Grammarsalad - we were hoping in BG:EE :D

    We still are :D

    CrevsDaak
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    I'm not really in favor of changing the way this game is played. Having to enable "searching" for traps, then carefully navigate your way through a dungeon is part of the D&D experience. Getting rid of that is one more step towards Diablo style action games, which is not what I want.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    Is it possible to simply increase the number of checks per round? I don't know if I'd want to go as far as what the OP is suggesting, but I think having trapfinding update every 2 or 3 seconds instead of 6 would be a good solution.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    I'd rather find trap cycle speed up then changing the mechanic that drastically.

    On the other hand, it's technically working correctly. In fact, it's actually buffed. While searching for traps, which requires their full concentration each round, and thief is also supposed to move at half-speed (same for moving silently, which is also currently working at full or even hasted speeds)...currently you don't move slower unless you just feel like it.

    If they added Non-combat proficiencies, you actually could implement a system similar to above, since one of the rogue NCP allows an automatic chance to notice traps or secret doors (10% per round, per point), as long as you're not distracted (casting spells, fighting, etc.) or running. (Though it costs double proficiency per point for non-rogues, and still doesn't allow non-thieves to disarm them).

    On the other hand....it would require changing the lock and trap system. They currently use a threshold system, rather then a proper chance based like the other thief skills do. Your skill is supposed to directly equal your chance to open a lock or disarm a trap (or the chance to spot traps each round), but on the other hand, if you fail, you cannot reattempt that particular trap or lock until you gain another level of experience (finding traps can be re-tried, each round).
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    I'd personally rather appreciate passive searches, much like there are passive searches for secret doors.

    Essentially, give thieves the chance to detect traps every round at half their Detect Traps rating.

    They can still explore whilst actively searching for traps to have a much, much better chance of success, but your average level 10 thief with 110 in Find Traps shouldn't be caught out by the difficulty 10 trap.

    This give a reason to invest over 100 points into Find Traps, since a Find Traps score of 200+ would mean your trapmaster could spot pretty much any trap without trying. It would also, rather importantly, give the thief the ability to scout for traps whilst hiding in the shadows, something sorely lacking at present.
    TJ_Hooker
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    edited January 2013
    Forum
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    edited January 2013
    Lagged out. Apologies.
  • LugeLuge Member Posts: 90
    Of course, the other pain is that you can't sneak when detecting traps. Now, I may not be a fantasy adventurer living in a made-up world of goblins and demons myself, but if I WAS, and I was trying to make my way up a corridor while looking for traps, I would be treading as lightly and silently as I could, so I could notice tripwires, pressure plates and even sound-activated devices. That sounds like sneaking to me...

    L.
    TJ_HookerPantalion
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    [Deleted User]
  • gunmangunman Member Posts: 215
    @Bhaaldog, that could be due to party AI being turned on.
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited January 2013
    1 trap search (move) per round (6 seconds).
Sign In or Register to comment.