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What's more powerful dual class or multi class?

What would make a more powerful character?? Dual or multiclass??

Thinking of a mage/cleric/fighter
Multiclass half elf.

Or should I dual class a human after I reach the highest level in cleric or mage?

For example if i have a cleric at the highest level then import and start again duelling with a mage. Would my character be more powerful as a human duel or another class multi class??

Also if I did decide to duel what would be the highest level I could take my first class to? And when my second class overtakes the first class will I start getting experience and skills again in my first class?? For example if I duelled a cleric at level 3, when I get to level 4 on my second class would I start getting experience again in cleric class??or will it forever stay at level 3??

Thanks.

Comments

  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    Ok, I think yo're having the same issue I did years ago when I first started playing.

    There is an Experience Cap. You are limited in the total amount of Experience Points you may accrue with any given character.

    This means that with the experience split evenly between all of a character's classes:

    A Single Class Character will be a higher level than any Multi or Dual Class.

    A Multi-Class Character has a wider range of abilities than a single class even if the component classes are indivdually weaker. IE, a Mage/Cleric will have a much broader availablity of magic to cast than either a single classed Cleric or Mage, but won't have as much high level magic.

    A dual class character is limited to only two classes. And they share the experience cap total the way a multi-class does. But you get to choose how much to level up your first class. And if you really want to tweak it, you can level up pretty darn high with some classes then switch to another class and just eek out the last couple of levels to get your primary class ablities back. I think it worked out to like 28 levels of fighter and 29 of rogue or something. Someone else would know, I never got into the nuts and bolts too much.


    For Baldur's Gate, you could roll up a Swashbuckler (that's a rogue kit) and get 5 or 6 levels to max out Open Locks and Find Traps (and get some nice side-bonuses) then dual to mage. You'll have the basic rogue skills needed for the whole trilogy and 5 or 6 levels of rogue isn't a significant hit to your Mage Power in BG:EE, and over the course of the whole trilogy 6 levels of rogue isn't even a speed bump to phenomenal cosmic power.

    That's just an example though. Rogue classes are very cheap to level up so a few at the start of a character is an easy tip-toe into Dual Class Lake.

    Generally, dual classing away from a spell casting class is a bad choice since magic becoes phenomenally more powerful as you level while the more mundane classes don't really keep up. One of the most powerful and broken dual class combos is Kensai to Mage. All that magic really offsets the downsides of rolling a Kensai while the Kensai class makes a character a walking Cuisinart.


    Anyway I kinda got to rambling. Sorry.

    marty29
  • marty29marty29 Member Posts: 30
    So for a dual class you really want to play thru once and then start again with your second class?? When you catch up with your original class does that stays at the same all the time after that?? But you get those powers/ skills.??

    Would I be better duelling a cleric/mage or multiclassing??? That the 2 classes I really want.

    Thanks a lot of good info there your not rambling....

  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    Dual Classing after your first playthrough only helps if you remove the game's Experience Cap.

    For a Cleric/Mage, you'd probably be happier MultiClassing unless you only wanted access to very low level abilities and magic. Keep in mind, you can use this character across the whole trilogy. So, yeah, a Multi Cleric/Mage would probably be your best bet.

    As mentioned before, you'll have less access to the highest levels of magic (although at the end of the trilogy you'll still have serious magical muscle) but your overall base of magic will be MUCH broader than either a single class mage or single class cleric.

    marty29
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited April 2013
    First off, I just want to say that BG isn't really designed for doing multiple playthroughs with a single character. There's nothing wrong with doing that, and some people certainly find it fun, but it's not like some games that have a New Game+ that is designed for higher level characters.

    Also, unless you have the xp cap modded, you'll hit easily hit the cap in a single playthrough, meaning that it wouldn't work to dual a character that you've already beat the game with.

    You will never gain additional xp in your first class after you dual, even after you get to a higher level in your new class.

    If this is your first time playing, I would recommend playing a multiclass.

    marty29atcDave
  • marty29marty29 Member Posts: 30
    How do you remove the experience cap?? I want a really powerful mage/cleric that can cast all the top spells.....

  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    Its not really necessary. At the end of the trilogy the cap is enough to get to around level 40.


    Level 20 is the equivalent of a demigod.

    If you max out in the first game you have nothing to look foreward to.

    TJ_Hookermarty29
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited April 2013
    Well, even if you did remove the cap, you still wouldn't be able to cast all the high level mage spells, as there aren't any scrolls for them in the game, unless you cheat them in.

    To remove the cap, see here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/10212/a-simple-xp-cap-removeral

    Edit: Also, being able to cast the highest level spells would completely trivialize the game.

  • marty29marty29 Member Posts: 30
    @ tj_hooker it's not my first play thru, however been a number of years since I've played thru, always went a fighter class and wanted to try a multiclass spell caster to give me more of an interesting and changing play thru....just want to get the most from my guy, would hate to realise near the end I can't get some spells or max out my character.
    I don't like modding if I can help it either. Playing on the iPad at the moment also due to the problems with the intel chips and the EE...

    So ill possibly go a multi class cleric/mage, what advice can you give me on a cleric/mage/ fighter??? Any down falls?? And is the cleric /mage the best spell casters ethos's?

    Thanks again any info would be great...

  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    Honestly, I'd just go Cleric/Mage. You can get guys to be a fighter for you, and as it is your experience is going to be stretched thin with just those two classes. Plus you have access to both Mage and Cleric buffs that would let your guy kick butt without the fighter levels. Does that one super cleric buff stack with Tenser's Transformation? Anyone know?

  • OsigoldOsigold Member Posts: 117
    Dual-classing freezes you at that point in that class permanently (they'll never improve again), and you'll get most of your abilities back only when your new class level exceeds the old. You have to obey the XP cap for the sum total of your earned experience, so for BG:EE you'd need to be a 7th level cleric or lower in order to be able to exceed that level as a mage.

    Dual classing can make for very powerful characters, because certain aspects of the character are static, and certain investments become negligable over time. For example, if you dualled into Mage after attaining Cleric level 5 then you'd retain the eight-sided hit dice for your first five levels, and you'd still be able to reach 9th level as a Mage, the same as a straight-classed character. You'd also have access to third level and lower clerical spells once you reached 6th level as a Mage.

    Multi class characters are locked into even advancement, but they're always active and progressing in both classes and often get the best of both worlds in terms of THAC0, saving throws, proficiencies, etc. A Mage/Cleric only reaches level 7/7 (gaining access to 4th level cleric spells but losing access to 5th level mage spells versus the dual classed character), but assuming you import him into BG2EE one day (if/when it's released) he'll be able to raise the dead one day, and still learn lots of powerful magic-user spells.

    In terms of power, it really depends on how you view things: a dual classed Cleric 5 into Mage 9 is probably more powerful than a straight Mage 9, a straight Mage 9 is probably more powerful than a Cleric 7 / Mage 7 because magic user spells are a big deal and 5th level spells count for a lot: but the Cleric 7 / Mage 7 is probably more useful, because he's got more spells in total that probably include a lot of life-saving heals and buffs.

    That's not always the way it goes, though! The thief, for example, is pretty poor in direct battle in 2nd Edition: a Fighter / Thief is probably more powerful than a straight Thief because he's much more likely to actually land his backstabs, and simultaenously less dependent upon stealth to win. This time it's the straight thief that's the utility choice.

  • marty29marty29 Member Posts: 30
    So what's the highest levels you can duel class??

    I forgot to mention I would like to carry my guy thru the trilogy with the pantaloons etc. if that's the case I think it would be better to multi class. Then I would be capped on my first class.....??

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited April 2013
    Uh....a 7/7 cleric/mage dual can already raise dead....it's a 3rd level spell for clerics (and not a whole lot of good spell choices for that level otherwise...just dispel basically), and 5th for mages (lots of nice spells to have to mull over, including a few essentials, like breach).

    If you go through the whole trilogy, Multi-classes are WAY more powerful and much less of a headache to deal with (And race depending, can have some pretty sweet racial perks on top). They on a whole end up with like 6-7 more HLA then a single or dual-classed character does, and since HLA acqusition is based on total xp, rather then class level, they get them at time point a single/dual would, but faster since they get one every time one of their classes gains a level after 3 mill total xp. And while I don't really condone it since it removes one of the few balancing factors still in the game, removing the xp cap allows them to utterly dominate the poor Dual-class (aside from some over-the-top 39/40 kitted dual-class (the Multi still gets more HLA though)).

    The only "advantage" of a dual-class is to get a kit, though unless you do some ridiculously high level solo dual, multi's are ALWAYS better due to having to dual so early you only get a tiny smidgen of the kit's bonuses. (Technically, stats allowing, a you should be able to dual as one of each of the 4 archetypes, but BG didn't implement this. The other balancing factor, demi-human class caps, are also non-existent.)

    marty29RnRClown
  • marty29marty29 Member Posts: 30
    Multi class it is then, now I just need to decide if I want 2 way or 3 way. As in cleric/mage or cleric/mage/fighter....? If I add the fighter class does it affect any of the cleric or mage class's ie spells? apart from the obvious weapon slots and thaco bonus. i presume it will just take longer to gain levels as the experience is over 3 classes? But you still gain the top level character?

  • LarlochLarloch Member Posts: 11
    For any fighter combo dual is way better right now for exclusive BG1 play. You mentioned importing so that probably isn't relevant.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Well, the XP gets split between 3 classes instead of 2 if you triple class, that much should be obvious. And unless you remove level cap, there is still the same the same total of XP you can get.

    TJ_Hooker
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited April 2013

    Uh....a 7/7 cleric/mage dual can already raise dead....it's a 3rd level spell for clerics (and not a whole lot of good spell choices for that level otherwise...just dispel basically), and 5th for mages (lots of nice spells to have to mull over, including a few essentials, like breach).

    I think he was talking about Raise Dead, as in the spell that brings party member back to life, not Animate Dead, the spell you seem to be thinking of.
    marty29 said:

    Multi class it is then, now I just need to decide if I want 2 way or 3 way. As in cleric/mage or cleric/mage/fighter....? If I add the fighter class does it affect any of the cleric or mage class's ie spells? apart from the obvious weapon slots and thaco bonus. i presume it will just take longer to gain levels as the experience is over 3 classes? But you still gain the top level character?

    http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate is a really good reference. Remember that the xp cap is 161000 for the BG1 campaign. Divide that by the number of classes you want to have in your multiclass to see how much xp you can get in each class. Go to the Baldur's Gate: Progression Charts page in the above link in order to see what xp corresponds to what level for the various classes. On that page you will also be able to see how may spells you can cast per day (and how high a spell level you can cast) at different class levels.

    Post edited by TJ_Hooker on
    atcDave
  • DexterDexter Member Posts: 253
    Since BG1 has XP cap, dual classing is about class sinergy. Think what class you want to play (main class) and then add a couple levels of another class and see if it adds versatility to the mix. Ideally you should be able to reach max level of your main class.
    For instance, 3 fighters levels (or fighter kits levels) add good melee capabilities to most classes (cleric, druid, mage, thief). This is a very common combo, since you get grand mastery (that is, more than one APR) in exchange of only 4.000xp.
    Thief is another good class to dual from/to.

    Other duals are more difficult to pull off in BG1, specially spellcasters, as they need higher levels to learn more spells. For example 5 mage levels still let you reach max level as cleric and give your cleric some mage spells (fireball), but in this case I prefer just going multiclass

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Mage 6 -> Cleric can still get the same spells a pure cleric can get. It adds a long downtime and usually requires some good planning if you want to dual after level 3, otherwise you're stuck with mostly dead weight in quests.

    If you want, as you say, the most badass caster, (specialist) mage 6 --> cleric is the way to go, imo. I frequently do exactly that with Xzar and he becomes a complete casting monster with Ring of Sune and Evermemory. I probably wouldn't pick necromancer as mage kit (I don't mind on Xzar as I have at least one more caster anyway) though. This is by no means a build for a tank or damage dealer, but it is very possible to frontline and do decent damage. It's not like having fighter levels, but if you want a casting machine with decent survivability, there you go.

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    Yeah, but the issue there is that, if one plans to import, high level arcane magic is WAY more important then divine magic....divine magic is almost useless, aside from a tiny handful of genuinely powerful self-buffs (works best with a Fighter/Cleric multi (especially a Dwarf for ridiculous saves), but a 9 dual F/C isn't too bad either, and will at least get 15+ animate dead fairly quickly). The caster variant is underpowered, the healing component is completely pointless (A hasted party with melee/bows/darts will mow down most threats before they become an issue, a well placed crowd control spell can render most battles a joke), and in the unusual event of a party member death, raises are cheap, and with the majority of the best gear being found rather then purchased, you have money to burn.

    They're so unimportant, that IF you feel strongly you need one, use an NPC to cover it...as much as I hate him, Anomen in the sequel is a decent choice. Good melee presence (really needs the dex gloves though) and can buff himself up with those awesome personal cleric buffs, and throw a chaotic commands (the only buff that can't really be replaced, but also isn't super required) if needed for mind flayers.

  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    i'm also fairly sure, given how multis level up, that you'll end up with more HLAs in ToB and you can choose from both warrior and rogue pools (though you'll mostly choose rogue, because they're so much better)

    just had a look at xp progression tables and from what i gather a f/t multi will get 23 HLAs and thief single or fighter>thief dual will get 16 HLAs, so that's a big bonus for the multi

    smeagolheart
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,342
    mjs said:

    i'm also fairly sure, given how multis level up, that you'll end up with more HLAs in ToB and you can choose from both warrior and rogue pools (though you'll mostly choose rogue, because they're so much better)

    just had a look at xp progression tables and from what i gather a f/t multi will get 23 HLAs and thief single or fighter>thief dual will get 16 HLAs, so that's a big bonus for the multi

    multi > dual long term

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    marty29 said:

    What would make a more powerful character?? Dual or multiclass??

    dual is the best because you can have special subclasses like kensai-mage
    marty29 said:



    the rest i think everyone answered correctly tldr

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,342
    ok anything dual to mage is better than a multi. Because mages are the epitome of game breaking cheese.

    In other classes multi is better than dual

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited April 2013
    berserker23?/cleric
    how is he worse than fighter/cleric?

  • SharachanSharachan Member Posts: 5
    zur312 said:

    berserker23?/cleric
    how is he worse than fighter/cleric?

    You have to play trought BG1 and SoA as a Berserker, and then be useless halfway trough ToB before you gain level 24 Cleric.

    Or you cheat...


    A multi fighter/mage or cleric/mage will be usefull all the time, and be very strong at the end.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited April 2013
    Sharachan said:

    zur312 said:

    berserker23?/cleric
    how is he worse than fighter/cleric?

    You have to play trought BG1 and SoA as a Berserker, and then be useless halfway trough ToB before you gain level 24 Cleric.

    Or you cheat...


    A multi fighter/mage or cleric/mage will be usefull all the time, and be very strong at the end.

    i agree

    but will be less strong than dual class at the end. = less power
    this is powerfull thread

  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    surely average power is better than end power?

    isn't it better to own all the battles throughout the trilogy than only super own the last couple of battle in ToB?

    because if you're going ultimate power then you dual late enough to start getting HLAs and get your levels back late too. especially for something like a kensai, where you get that sweet extra +1 dam&hit for every 3 levels.

    therefore it's more powerful to dual at lvl 24, to get optimum damage, kais etc before dualling

    RAM021
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    mjs said:

    surely average power is better than end power?

    isn't it better to own all the battles throughout the trilogy than only super own the last couple of battle in ToB?

    because if you're going ultimate power then you dual late enough to start getting HLAs and get your levels back late too. especially for something like a kensai, where you get that sweet extra +1 dam&hit for every 3 levels.

    therefore it's more powerful to dual at lvl 24, to get optimum damage, kais etc before dualling

    you are correct and that's why i love multiclassing in IWD2 you can just pick 1 level of every class (not that you really need to but) and play as 1fighter/1barbarian/2rouge/Xsorcerer

    but still the question wasn't specific "end game power" or "power for the whole game"

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