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Feel I was misled by kensai, axe and missile references in the character creation dialogue

ShusakuShusaku Member Posts: 18
in Archive (General Discussion)
I feel I was misled by a combination of the kensai description, the definition of "missile" and the hiding in fine print of the info that "axe" includes throwing axe. When creating the character, these all combined to leave me ignorant that I could use a throwing axe as a kensai, despite my careful reading of the info in the character creation dialogues. Please amend a couple of things here: 1) After "may not use missiles" in the kensai description put "may use throwing axes" (maybe in brackets); 2) In the abilities dialogue, change the listing of "axe" to "axe/throwing axe".

I believe these amendments may help prevent others ending up, like me, wandering round the Nashkel mines with Khalid & Jaheira doing most of the work (even Imouen gets more hits than me!) and throwing axes that miss and miss and miss.

Comments

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I believe that the use of throwing axes and daggers is an exploit, rather than designed behavior. We won't be changing that behavior, certainly, but that's definitely not how the kit is "supposed" to work, in the strictest sense. :)
  • ShusakuShusaku Member Posts: 18
    I don't really understand. How is it an "exploit" if the kensai is clearly and explicitly allowed to use axes, which as the manual explains, always includes throwing axes?
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    It's an exploit (not a bug, mind you) because the Kensai, as a kit, is designed to be a master of melee--fighting at range isn't what the kit was intended for, but its ability to use axes and daggers means it's also able to use throwing axes and throwing daggers. You can take advantage of that to give your kensai a ranged weapon, but strictly speaking it's not how the kit was designed to be used.

    But that of course shouldn't stop you from using it. It just means that advertising it as a feature of the class might not be a good idea for the game's text. :)
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited June 2013
    Shusaku said:

    I don't really understand. How is it an "exploit" if the kensai is clearly and explicitly allowed to use axes, which as the manual explains, always includes throwing axes?

    Just because a class/kit has access to a proficiency doesn't guarentee that they have access to all the weapons covered by that proficiency. For example, a bard can use longbows but not composite longbows, a druid can use scimitars but not wakizashis or ninja-tos, etc.

    Also, in the case of 2 conflicting statements, who's to say which is the incorrect one? Is the statement saying that kensais can't use any missile weapons incorrect, or is the statement that being proficient in axes necessarily means you're proficient with throwing axes incorrect?
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    I guess Kensai is supposed to melee kit, that cannot use any ranged weapons. However, besides banning the use of daggers and axes entirely, there is no fast and easy way to prohibit throwing them. So, it is a known is issue that is not worth fixing.
  • ShusakuShusaku Member Posts: 18
    Sounds like you're saying I should simply enjoy a character who's significantly higher-powered than expected. Fair enough. I'll use my next allocatable level-up points to make the throwing axes able to hit something, and enjoy the ride.

    Thanks for the subtlety of your answers Dee.
  • ShusakuShusaku Member Posts: 18
    And thanks TJ Hooker and Bercon too (didn't thank you in my last post as I wrote if before yours appeared on my screen. :-)
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Do kensais get to hit and damage bonuses and/or use kai with throwing daggers and axes? If yes, than that is indeed an exploit, only archers deserve to be that lethal in ranged fighting.
  • ShusakuShusaku Member Posts: 18
    lunar, thanks for your comment. When I get a rare hit with a throwing axe, it does seem to cause a fair bit of damage - don't know where that comes from, though.

    What does "deserve" mean? Don't forget that a kensai has a pretty hefty starting handicap in not wearing armour - makes me feel like a peeled prawn at times :-), and keeps me off the front line a lot. Being held back from the front line by no armour actually makes it seem appropriate to me that a kensai should have a ranged option.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Shusaku said:

    lunar, thanks for your comment. When I get a rare hit with a throwing axe, it does seem to cause a fair bit of damage - don't know where that comes from, though.

    What does "deserve" mean? Don't forget that a kensai has a pretty hefty starting handicap in not wearing armour - makes me feel like a peeled prawn at times :-), and keeps me off the front line a lot. Being held back from the front line by no armour actually makes it seem appropriate to me that a kensai should have a ranged option.

    Heh, I feel like kensais are honorable warriors and as their names are sword-saints, they all prefer to go toe to toe and settle their differences with close quarter melee fighting, 1-vs1 duel style. Hit and run tactics, group mobbing, ranged weaponry are paltry tricks that they abhor, IMHO. They can not even have chaotic alignment, afterall. ^^
  • ShusakuShusaku Member Posts: 18
    My kensai likes staying alive and does not find his honour tarnished by throwing axes when necessary :-)

    At the moment I'm just beginning a game and it is hard keeping a kensai alive at level 1. In the Nashkel mines if I apply the "honour" you suggest then the kobolds hit me plenty before I can reach them. The circumstances simply suggest that the wisest course (and "saints" are revered as much for their insight as their honour) is to absorb the kobold arrows with Khalid & Jaheira's heavy armour, while I throw axes from the second line. These difficulties in keeping a kensai alive are as much a part of the design of a kensai as anything else and I continue to believe that a ranged option fits in with these inevitable circumstances.
  • ShusakuShusaku Member Posts: 18
    I also do not believe that a ranged option tarnishes the design of a kensai. It only makes sense to use a ranged option with my kensai when the enemy is using a ranged weapon (which seems quite honourable to me). When the enemy uses melee weapons, then the design of a kensai is fulfilled by making it logical to select a 2 handed sword/katana etc -which I do every time - as you can do fearsome damage.
  • ShusakuShusaku Member Posts: 18
    It's worth reflecting here, as well, on what it means to "prefer" to "go toe-to-toe". I prefer rice to bread, but that doesn't mean I eat rice every time - sometimes I choose bread, when it better fits with the other ingredients. My kensai does "prefer" to use his sword, but sometimes chooses another option, when circumstances suggest it is a more appropriate way to honourably kill the enemy.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I should note that, mechanically speaking, this has nothing to do with proficiencies. It has to do with the fact that throwing axes and throwing daggers can both be used as melee weapons. Any class with a ranged weapon restriction ignores weapons with a melee component. Which makes sense if you tilt your head and squint hard enough.

    I do hope the kensai's bonus is melee only, though. I don't begrudge them a minor ranged option, especially given their early-game weakness, but they should really be focused on melee.
  • ShusakuShusaku Member Posts: 18
    I would personally be quite happy with the "minor ranged option" you suggest, Jarrakul (if that is not the case already). Anybody who chooses a kensai is primarily interested in melee, and will only choose ranged where forced to - and in such circumstances it does sit right with me that there not be a bonus.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2013
    Strictly speaking, going by PnP rules, kensai should only be able to use their special abilities with a non-magical sword.

    But if you are going to bend the rules, daggers are much better than axes, because of the higher RoF.

    Thematically, axe-kensai works well for a dwarf though.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited June 2013
    The PnP Kensai can legally use thrown daggers, axes, and hammers (and they can also wear bracers, and even recommends picking up bracers of armor to offset their bad AC without disabling their combat bonuses (they can technically use everything a plain fighter can, but their bonuses only work when not wearing armor). Just not slings, bows, x-bows, and darts. (It specifically mentions in Complete Fighter that they can use any thrown weapons that also has a melee component, but their extra damage and hit only applies to melee attacks and only for their mastered weapon type (they (like nearly all fighter kits) are restricted to specialization (**), but can choose 1 specialized weapon type at creation to gain a free 3rd point in, and all their benefits only apply to attacks by that weapon type).


    The pnp berserker on the other hand.....is explicitly forbidden from buying any ranged weapon proficiency at creation, and even if they buy them afterward (which the DM is advised to disallow due to not fitting the kit's combat style) can't use them while raging, not even thrown weapons.
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