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Should Druid spells bypass magic resistance?

I've always thought that Druids use magic to harness the power of nature. Whereas mages use magical energy to shape things. So a druid's call lightening is actual lightening but a mage's lightening bolt is magic formed into electricity.
If this is the case then an offensive spell from a druid isn't magical, it's natural. Likewise the summon insects are real insects. So why would magic resistance be valid?

I think that druids would find arcane magic a perversion of nature, hence they have so many good anti-mage spells.

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    There is a lot of disparity in the community between what is actually magical, and what isn't; for example, there seems to be "magical" fire, and just plain fire. A fireball is apparently magical, while a fire shield is comprised of actual, normal fire that's simply fueled and held in place by magic (hence why MR doesn't affect it). The same is true for other spells, like Cloud Kill: the cloud is called by magic, and kept from dissipating by magic, but the cloud itself is NOT magic - it's poison, and can affect creatures immune to magic (but not those immune to poison).

    The logic behind it seems weird and inconsistent. For the sake of game complexity, I think spells have been unified in their effect a bit, i.e. most of them are simply considered "magic". There are very few exceptions, like the above-mentioned Fire Shield, or Cloud Kill (and that one doesn't even always work, depending on what game/version you play).

    From a power-balance perspective, it would probably be way too good to have druid spells just completely bypass MR. While they could definitely use some oomph to make them more attractive to power-gamers, I think a blanket solution is not exactly the best. I could envision a comprehensive reworking of how spells works, what's magical and what isn't, but that's something left for modders to figure out. In any case, I suspect such a project would spark a whole new row of controversy because things are rarely clear-cut on this issue.
  • ThunderThunder Member Posts: 157
    edited June 2013
    It's magic, therefor magic resistance should apply. That said, some effects are conjuring effects, and the actual damage they deal/effect they have isn't magical but mundane. In these cases magic resistance shouldn't apply. IIRC there are a few spells taking this into account.
    Post edited by Thunder on
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    Ligg said:

    I've always thought that Druids use magic to harness the power of nature. Whereas mages use magical energy to shape things. So a druid's call lightening is actual lightening but a mage's lightening bolt is magic formed into electricity.
    If this is the case then an offensive spell from a druid isn't magical, it's natural. Likewise the summon insects are real insects. So why would magic resistance be valid?

    I think that druids would find arcane magic a perversion of nature, hence they have so many good anti-mage spells.

    This is certainly one of the more philosophical topics in recent memory, I applaud you for that. In a word, no, but only because of the offset of game mechanics. As it stands, the divine and the arcane are intertwined by the laws of magic. They are different, but they are the same in the sense that they are magic, so resistances to magic should always apply to both.

    I do so desire to see a class that can bring about magical effects without the magic.
  • FlashheartFlashheart Member Posts: 125
    Is it magic or nature though...let's have a look at the spells:

    Entangle: Causes grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees to wrap, twist, and entwine about the creatures, holding them. The victim is held via Nature - not Magic. I believe this should bypass MR.

    Charm Person/Mammal: Causes the victim to become enamoured with the Druid. Again this seems natural. I believe this should bypass MR.

    Call Lightning: The lighting is generated naturally from the sky, it's not magically created from nowhere (like the Mage spell). This should bypass MR.

    Hold Animal. There doesn't seem to be a natural method of holding the animal in this spell. MR should apply.

    Summon Insects: The Druid summons insects to harm the victim. There's nothing magical about the Insects. MR shouldn't apply.

    Insect Plague: See Summon Insects.

    Dolorous Decay: This spell looks like it uses Magic to affect its victim. MR should apply.

    Creeping Doom: See Summon Insects.

    Nature's Beauty: See Charm Person/Mammal.

    I'd say that a number of those spells use magic to 'get nature to do something', but the problems they create for the victims come from nature, where MR shouldn't apply.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited June 2013
    Nature's Beauty is a glamor, and magic resistance doesn't work vs glamers. The glamer affects the user, not the viewer and the viewer simply has a reaction to it, unrelated to the magic. (though creatures able to innately see through illusions would be immune to it, as are mindless creatures).

    Charm effects on the other hand directly affects the target's mind, rather then boosting the user's appearance as friends does, and is affected by magic resistance.

    The rest sound about right.


    Technically there's also quite a few arcane spells unaffected by magic resistance. Flame Arrows isn't magical, it summons several flaming arrows (actual flaming arrows, not arrows made of fire) from elsewhere and propels them at the target. Same with Acid arrow actually. Cloudkill summons a cloud of highly poisonous gas from elsewhere and then leaves it to disperse over time naturally

    . There's a bunch of others, but due to spell's not being properly typed it's hard to tell which is which. Basically anything from Invocation (but not Evocation) by-passes magic resistance, and most conjuration does as well. Most divination does. Most abjuration does. Most illusions do unless they're replicating a spell that doesn't, since the creatures own belief is what is hurting them, rather then the spell itself.

    With few exceptions Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy, and Alteration, almost always are affected by magic resistance, if they're used directly on a resistant target. Even beneficial effects can be blocked if the target isn't conscious to decide to willingly lower their MR to allow the spell through.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    edited June 2013

    Is it magic or nature though...let's have a look at the spells:

    Entangle: Causes grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees to wrap, twist, and entwine about the creatures, holding them. The victim is held via Nature - not Magic. I believe this should bypass MR.

    The weeds, vines, and bushes are being magically altered to grow out of control or into shapes they normally would not, so that's iffy.
    Charm Person/Mammal: Causes the victim to become enamoured with the Druid. Again this seems natural. I believe this should bypass MR.
    Directly affecting the target's mind with magic. MR applies.
    Call Lightning: The lighting is generated naturally from the sky, it's not magically created from nowhere (like the Mage spell). This should bypass MR.
    This would go a long way to making the spell more useful, and it makes sense. I agree.
    Summon Insects: The Druid summons insects to harm the victim. There's nothing magical about the Insects. MR shouldn't apply.
    Insect Plague: See Summon Insects.
    Creeping Doom: See Summon Insects.
    Dolorous Decay: This spell looks like it uses Magic to affect its victim. MR should apply.
    Hold Animal. There doesn't seem to be a natural method of holding the animal in this spell. MR should apply.
    Agreed on all counts.
    Nature's Beauty: See Charm Person/Mammal.
    Considering that normally glimpsing an actual nymph will neither instantly kill you nor strike you blind, this is clearly a magical effect.
    Post edited by Schneidend on
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited June 2013
    The vines are physical however. They're like summoned creatures, brought there by and control by magic for the duration, but are not magical effects themselves.


    Web is an odd example though....it's very much magically created in nature (Evocation, rather then Invocation), but explicitly by-passes magic resistance anyway, since it's effects are purely physical (the creature is getting physically tangled in the webs), rather then some meta effect or an explosion of magical energy. The only way a creature can ignore web is to be too strong, or too large to become stuck, or have the natural ability to move through webs (such as spiders have) without becoming stuck.


    @Schneidend, unless the Nymph wills it otherwise (or you're a 10th level or higher druid, who are able to see through Sylvan and Fey glamers innately), yes you will be struck blind and/or die instantly just from laying eyes on them.

    Technically death only occurs if they're naked when you see them, otherwise you're merely permanently blinded.


    The nymph's ability is an innate glamer and is specifically mentioned to by-pass magic resistance because it does not effect the target, it affects the nymph herself. (when it's working correctly).

    The actual blinding and death is non-magical, it's just the target being too weak-willed to realize what it's seeing is an illusion and their belief making it real.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    I understand the statement and the valid argument of the OP, however when i deal with magic and magic resistance in D&D, i see magic as something that taint an basic element. It's not a bad way of taint, nothing like corruption or evil, but it's something that either fill the nature of an natural existence or convert universe energy into magical energy.

    For example, if magic were only a guide to a natural matter, magic would not exist directly, every lighting bolt would be energy synthesized from the frictions of the air (like we do in real world with mills), fireballs would be the heat of the ambient only, focused into a single point and launched to another specific point, Identify would be a connection with an group conscience that would bring the character a knowledge of something he never achieved in his life, flesh to stone would be atomic change in the base carbon structure of a person... and therefore on.

    If a mage in the game start to explain what magic is, they would probally quote the upper reasonings, but magic in my view is surely more than that, magic for me is a form of energy that affect or can affect any other kind of matter that touch it in many different ways, thus blending with it.

    The above reasing is why a protection from magical weapon still stop an attack. If magic was only the catalyst of a result and nothing more (it is a catalyst and more for me), the steel of a magic sword would still damage the protected mage, while the magic property of that sword would be nulified.

    So, to end, for me magic in D&D is a 5° natural element, it can work by itself and can be the catalyst for other results. Of course D&D is coherent, a Comet HLA spell for example bypass magic resistance, as no matter if you can resist the magic, an stone of the size of a football camp would no matter hurt if comes to fall in your head.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    It's not protection from magic, it's magic resistance that's being discussed.

    The vines in entangle and the webs from web, are either manipulated via magic, or generated from magic, but are still physical forces (not unlike a magical weapon...it's imbued with magic, but still has physical form and will still perform it's function regardless of whether a target has magic resistance or not (protection however, prevents the magically imbued item from touching the target at all)...the only exception is if the item is replicating a spell that is subject to magic resistance, since the weapon is basically functioning as a wand in that regard and is casting the spell normally).

    PfMW is abjuration spell. While outside forces can't force magically imbued things to touch the warded creature, it also doesn't force the warded objects away either if the creature moves against them. If you assume that Entangle or Web were effectively magical weapons, entangle wouldn't be able to grapple the warded target but could still trip them, if they wander into area of vines, and they could still become tangled in the webs since the webs aren't moving at all...the target is simply forcing their way through. Similarly, falling into a pit lined with enchanted spikes while warded with PfMW wouldn't stop the damage, since you are forcing yourself on the spikes due to gravity, rather then that spikes attempting to enter your space, which if wielded like daggers, they would be unable to touch you because of the ward. In fact, forcing ANY abjuration effect against whatever it's warding against will end the spell immediately.




    The difference being, a mage uses raw magical energy and shapes it into lighting or fire, which is why it comes instantly on demand and doesn't depend on the natural forces...they simply make it happen. The druid manipulates nature to cause natural lightning strikes....but requires them to be outside and it takes time for enough electricity to build up to create a bolt (technically speaking, the actual time before the first bolt is supposed to depend on how close to a storm the atmosphere was....a fully clear day could take several minutes before the first bolt was ready, while during a rain storm would be almost instantly).



    It depends on the school used.

    Conjuration (and all Invocation), Divination, Illusion, and Abjuration rarely allow magic resistance, if at all, since most of their effects aren't actually targeting the creature directly and are instead doing something else, which affects the creature in some way indirectly.

    Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy, and alteration almost always allow magic resistance when affecting a creature, since they tend to attempting to force magic into the target in some form. Effects that affect a target indirectly, such as web, don't despite being made wholly from magic.



    It's very complicated though....especially in BG, since spells are either miss-typed due to not specifying their sub-school or have part of their type removed in case of dual-types which could help better identify whether a spell should or should not be affected by magic resistance.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    we're discussing magic in general and it's bases, protection from magic weapons is magic from what i last heard.

    with the speech "this isn't being discussed" pretty every argument that someone doesn't like would be refuted as that. A bit ... falacious, no disrespect meant.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190


    @Schneidend, unless the Nymph wills it otherwise (or you're a 10th level or higher druid, who are able to see through Sylvan and Fey glamers innately), yes you will be struck blind and/or die instantly just from laying eyes on them.

    Technically death only occurs if they're naked when you see them, otherwise you're merely permanently blinded.


    The nymph's ability is an innate glamer and is specifically mentioned to by-pass magic resistance because it does not effect the target, it affects the nymph herself. (when it's working correctly).

    The actual blinding and death is non-magical, it's just the target being too weak-willed to realize what it's seeing is an illusion and their belief making it real.

    Out of curiosity, I looked up the nymph stat block in my closest-to-AD&D-edition-of-choice, Pathfinder, and nearly let loose a frothing roar.

    DC 21 Fortitude Save or be permanently blinded?! A typical Fighter of 7th level (Nymph is CR 7) is only going to have about a 40% chance to succeed, and that's with 14 Constitution and a +2 bonus to saving throws from an item.

    At least Pathfinder nymphs don't instantly kill people. But they can stun them by looking at them, aslo DC 21 Fortitude.

    I am genuinely upset by this.
  • pekirtpekirt Member Posts: 111
    From a game balance and game flavor point, you might wish to look up the similar discussion on Psionics Handbook (or whatever it's called). In the 3rd ed version, they discuss the various effects of Magic and Psionics seeing and not seeing each other (i.e. should SR apply to psionics etc). IIRC, the discussion implies that there's a flavor/balance that works well for any answer you might give to that question.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited June 2013
    @kamuizin None taken. Just trying to keep things on topic.

    Protection spells and magic resistance do serve similar functions, but magic resistance is a blanket resistance with different rules, while protections are more specific of what they block and aren't really needed to be discussed, since if they say they block a particular spell or effect, then they block that spell or effect, no matter it's sourc. Even Psionics under FR rules are affected by some spell protections, since they more narrowly define what they're effects they are protecting against (Mind Blank, Chaotic Commands, Circle of Protection from X, non-detection, will all work vs certain psionic powers to some degree, and some of the psionic defenses will block specific effects, rather then spells themselves (such as preventing detect alignment or blocking domination spells, and defenses that protect against elemental damage will still function fine vs magic of that type), rather then a blanket spells of X level or less.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    In my experience it's generally best not to think too hard about exactly how magic works. Particular when trying to compare it to our own non-magical world.

    Magic is inconsistent and hard to properly measure. At the end of the day it's best to just follow what the rules say and try not to worry about it.
  • MathmickMathmick Member Posts: 326
    edited June 2013
    Personally I think that magic resistance should apply to anything that is a spell and affects the MR-possessing target, with the exception of spells that indirectly affect the target (summons attacking them etc.).

    That way everything is consistant and there's no need to argue the definition of magic.
  • Aron740Aron740 Member Posts: 153
    Why not make a poll?
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Summon insects, Insect plague and Creeping Doom spells should ignore mr. The druid conjures up a horde of creepy crawlies and they attack with their natural methods. It's the same as a conjurer's summoned ogre hitting a creature:the creature won't benefit from mr.

    Charm person or mammal is a direct enchantment effect and should be subject to mr.

    I am sceptic about Call lightning:it is totally different than a mage's lightning bolt, it looks much more natural and thus may bypass mr. Does a drow get mr chance if he is struck by a real lightning storm? Or fallen into hot lava? No.

    IIRC, in BG2 druidic Chain lightning (Avengers get it) did bypass mr, whereas mage version did not. I wonder if it is the same in BG:EE
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Is a natural lighting bolt able to be aimed in someone? How does that aim happens? If we do not take care, only evocation school will be left to be blocked by Mres.
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    Ligg said:

    Should Druid spells bypass magic resistance?

    Short answer : No.

    Long answer : There is no "nature" resistance (like lighting, fire, cold, ...) in the game, so, no Druid spells shall not bypass magic resistance.
    Even though they draw power from nature, this is still a magic user, and using magic.

  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    edited June 2013
    lunar said:

    Summon insects, Insect plague and Creeping Doom spells should ignore mr. The druid conjures up a horde of creepy crawlies and they attack with their natural methods. It's the same as a conjurer's summoned ogre hitting a creature:the creature won't benefit from mr.

    Makes sense, but if they're regular insects it also means that they shouldn't be able to damage anything immune to normal weapons. It would make the spells weaker.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Magic resistance could be as well a field of natural dispel or disrupt of magic around a person, a lighting bolt aimed to a magic resistance creature wouldn't hit it's mark maybe, as the guiding magic would be disrupted to hit a place near but not the target, insects magically controlled could as well break free from a druid control when they got near a magic resistance person.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited June 2013
    Except that doesn't happen. Otherwise Magic resistance can apply to any spell, no matter how indirect it is.


    @Aasimar069
    Magic resistance and damage resistance are 2 very different things. Damage resistance is just a flat % reduction of a type of damage, regardless of it's source, unless otherwise specified. Unless a spell specifically mentions functioning differently, the overall effect of a spell is whatever damage type it's emulating. The difference being, one is natural, summoned and directed by magic (no MR allowed), and one is completely magical in nature (MR allowed).

    the Insect swarms are conjuration, so it's exempt from MR, because it's summoning a swarming of insects from elsewhere, just like summon monster or the like. They may or may not wink out in an anti-magic field (depending on if they're summon creatures or called creatures (summoned creatures aren't real, while called creatures are), but they can still do their job just fine against magic resistance.

    @mylegbig
    Wouldn't matter if the insects were enchanted or not, a magical weapon works just fine against creatures with magic resistance, because they're physical. A summoned elemental can massacre creature with magic resistance just fine. A fireball on the other hand is composed entirely of loose magical energy that simply flows harmlessly around a target, unless it penetrates their magic resistance.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    But a swarm of conjured insects isn't exactly natural. Even leaving aside the fact that they were magically summoned, their natural tendency would be to scatter in all directions. They certainly wouldn't all decide to attack a particular target without magic compelling them to do so.

    Of course this doesn't distinguish it from a summoned elemental which is also magically compelled to attack a particular target.

    And a temporarily summoned weapon (which presumably is magical because it is going to go poof at some point) isn't affected by magic resistance.

    At the end of the day inconsistency abounds with how magical resistance works. It's magic!
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    No....in PnP, it's pretty clear which is which. In BG, it's a haphazard mess of house rules that don't make any sense 8/10 times.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857

    No....in PnP, it's pretty clear which is which. In BG, it's a haphazard mess of house rules that don't make any sense 8/10 times.

    I would argue many of the rulings do make sense... Due to engine limitations and or difficulty of implementation.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Except that there are few spells that engine limitation is a legitimate excuse...and those spells aren't implemented anyway.

    As modders have proved, there is little to no reason at all that the game couldn't be 99.9% PnP accurate, aside from the original time constraints, which shouldn't matter anymore. Even the holy swords could be properly implemented using the method that RRB did to make PnP-accurate shortsword of backstabbing (it's bonuses only work when wielded by thieves, it is otherwise a +2 short short sword, even in the hands of a UAI bard, which is identical functionality to how Holy Swords in the hands of paladins/non-paladins works).

    Even the Berserker's rage can be properly implemented, stealing elements from the time stop spell to prevent certain spells and healing from taking effect on the berserker until the rage ends, which is the most difficult part of the rage, the rest is just tweaking to give proper bonuses.

    And doing magic resistance is a joke....if a spell doesn't allow MR in PnP, then just toggle MR? to No in NI. You don't even need any scripting knowledge to do it, and just a few minutes of playing around in NI to figure out where stuff is.
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