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Dual Classing Level Balance

CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
in Archive (General Discussion)
One thing that always trips me up is where the tipping point is for leveling up Class A in order to successfully dual class. Like, how many levels of thief can you take in Baldur's Gate 1 and Baldur's Gate 2 to successfully dual class to Mage and get your thief levels back?

Does anyone have a handy chart somewhere for those of us who suck at math?

Comments

  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    That is incredibly helpful, thank you.

    I think we can assume that if we're using the Throne of Bhaal experience cap you don't need to worry about missing out on dual classing later if you go single class in the first game, so we don't need that chart currently.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    In BG2, 13 is the highest level you should ever dual-class out of, classing depending. Anything more then that is some stupid uber-optimized powergamer build that takes most of the saga, solo, to realize and ultimately isn't worth the effort.

    General rule, never dual out of a caster. It's never worth it, especially for druids..since their lower level spells suck.

    2 - Ranger (also known as basically single class Cleric/Druid with free dual-wield, Cheese Sauce with a side of ENGINE-EXPLOITING MFer!?)

    9 - for Zerk, Ranger, or Fighter

    10 - for Swashbuckler, if you don't care about getting the next level of utility xp at 11.

    11 - for BH (if you bother dualing at all), normal thief, cleric (only if going to a mage)

    13 - Kensai, or possibly normal thief, if you want maximum BS (not really worth it imo), or solo fighter>X runs.


    Those would be ideal levels....you can of course go much higher (19-21-ish, if memory serves), but it's not worth the downtime, even in solo play.
  • PugPugPugPug Member Posts: 560
    THAC0 caps at 0, at least in BG2 and TOB (presumably in the EE versions as well, eventually).

    So you could take a Fighter to 20, dual class to Druid, and still get all of the spells per day a pure Druid gets before hitting the TOB experience cap. Druid spell progression stops a lot earlier than for clerics or arcane casters for some reason. Oh, and you'd have full plate mail.

    The downsides being you'd get few, if any, HLAs, and you'd be playing a level 1 druid at some point around the start of TOB.

    But hey, import that character into a new game...

    Another really bad but kind of clever idea I had was to level a Shadowdancer to a respectable level of Stealth, then dual to a Mage. You'd get to become invisible as a defense. You'd have to be something around level 20 though to be able to always Stealth in broad daylight. Could shave a few levels with bonuses from items.

    Or you could just use the (fixed version of the) Staff of the Magi.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    @PugPug You Sir get an insightful. Those're cool ideas and would probably be a lot of fun if you don't mind grinding back up at the end of the series.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    You'd have to go to 21 actually.....Dualing at 20 would give you a base thac0 of 1. (technically thac0 is supposed to stop at 20, but BG progresses till 22, or until 0...whichever happens first)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    PugPug said:

    THAC0 caps at 0, at least in BG2 and TOB (presumably in the EE versions as well, eventually).

    So you could take a Fighter to 20, dual class to Druid, and still get all of the spells per day a pure Druid gets before hitting the TOB experience cap. Druid spell progression stops a lot earlier than for clerics or arcane casters for some reason. Oh, and you'd have full plate mail.

    The downsides being you'd get few, if any, HLAs, and you'd be playing a level 1 druid at some point around the start of TOB.

    But hey, import that character into a new game...

    Another really bad but kind of clever idea I had was to level a Shadowdancer to a respectable level of Stealth, then dual to a Mage. You'd get to become invisible as a defense. You'd have to be something around level 20 though to be able to always Stealth in broad daylight. Could shave a few levels with bonuses from items.

    Or you could just use the (fixed version of the) Staff of the Magi.

    Nothing like bringing back of the older threads :)

    I think a shadowdancer dualled to cleric would be an interesting combination. You really only need the 1 APR and you get lots of buffs to your attack.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,724
    edited July 2013
    Quartz said:

    Fighter 7 -> Thief 8
    Fighter 6 -> Cleric 7
    Fighter 7 -> Druid 9
    Fighter 7 -> Mage 8
    Ranger 6 -> Cleric 8
    Thief 6 -> Fighter 8
    Thief 7 -> Cleric 8
    Thief 7 -> Mage 8
    Cleric 6 -> Fighter 8
    Cleric 6 -> Ranger 7
    Cleric 7 -> Mage 8
    Druid 7 -> Fighter 8
    Mage 6 -> Fighter 7
    Mage 7 -> Thief 8
    Mage 6 -> Cleric 7

    That’s a great answer!
    I can only suppose some alternatives:

    Fighter 6 (at 32000 XP instead of 64000 XP) -> Thief 9 – you lose 0,5 APR but get х4 backstab modifier instead of х3 – personally, I like it better than Fighter 7 -> Thief 8, partly because you get your fighter abilities much sooner and become a more deadly assassin

    Fighter 6 -> Druid 10 – you again lose 0,5 APR but get another 5th level spell slot, so that you can have great IRON SKINS and INSECT PLAGUE simultaneously and don't have to face the situation when you're obliged to choose only one 5th level spell to memorise – I see little sense not to have both these spells at the end-game fights + you retrieve fighter abilities faster

    Thief 6 (at 20000 XP instead of 40000 XP) -> Mage 9 – you lose 25 thieving skills, -1 THACO but get access to 5th level spells, great CLOUDKILL, CHAOS and DOMINATION among them – again I see little sense not to have these spells at the end-game fights + you retrieve thieving skills faster - it is not the last thing to consider
    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    There's not a great need to advance beyond level 7 as a fighter before switching classes. You can get 3 pips in your favorite weapon and 3 in 2wS. That gives you 3 attacks per round with 2 weapons, and you can have 105 hp at 7th level, which should be plenty.

    Advancing to level 13 will grant you the following, if you use both pips to reach grand mastery:

    +1 apr
    +2 dam
    -4 SF
    +6 thac0
    +42 hp (19or20 con)

    It costs 1,186,000 xp just to gain all of that, which would make you a level 13 mage, 14 priest, or 15 thief.

    Furthermore, you can use the second classes abilities for the past 6 levels, including more than half of the content of BG if you solo. ON TOP OF THAT, you have to gain over 1,500,000 MORE xp just to activate most of those level 13f abilities! Which would make you a 17th level mage, casting 8th level spells as apposed to 6th level.

    But wait, it gets even less impressive. The second class also gains thac0 and hp from levels 8-13. A mage (for example) would gain +thac0 and 15 hp, which by comparison lessons the levels 13f perks to +4 thac0 and 27 hp.

    So you have to ask yourself, is 2,686,000 XP worth:

    +1 apr
    +2 dam
    -4 SF
    +4 thac0
    +27 hp

    For me, the answer is absolutely not.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Well, if you take Druid until you get that big bump in spells, 15. For the next 10 levels you gain fluff. You might even get a Druid hla, and you can nab several for fighters. Not sure how much you are missing out on, as priest hla aren't as game breaking as arcane. For poops and giggles, you could take a Druid kit, probably avenger. You won't gain anything for 18 cons anyways.

    Admittedly, this would be somewhat tedious to play in the low portion of the fighter half.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    bengoshi said:

    Fighter 6 -> Druid 10 – you again lose 0,5 APR but get 5th level spells (!), great IRON SKINS and INSECT PLAGUE among them – I see little sense not to have these two spells at the end-game fights

    Fighter 7 -> Druid 9 still gets 5th level spells.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    bengoshi said:

    Fighter 6 (at 32000 XP instead of 64000 XP) -> Thief 9 – you lose 0,5 APR but get х4 backstab modifier instead of х3 – personally, I like it better than Fighter 7 -> Thief 8, partly because you get your fighter abilities much sooner and become a more deadly assassin

    Thief 6 (at 20000 XP instead of 40000 XP) -> Mage 9 – you lose 25 thieving skills, -1 THACO but get access to 5th level spells, great CLOUDKILL, CHAOS and DOMINATION among them – again I see little sense not to have these spells at the end-game fights + you retrieve thieving skills faster - it is not the last thing to consider

    I should say though, the other two you mention are entirely valid considerations. Personally, I think Fighter 7 -> Thief 8 is better if you are planning to go into BGII but if it is a BG1-only run then yes, Fighter 6 -> Thief 9 is far superior. And yes, Thief 6 -> Mage 9, same deal.
  • DexterDexter Member Posts: 253
    bengoshi said:



    Fighter 6 -> Druid 10 – you again lose 0,5 APR but get another 5th level spell slot, so that you can have great IRON SKINS and INSECT PLAGUE simultaneously and don't have to face the situation when you're obliged to choose only one 5th level spell to memorise – I see little sense not to have both these spells at the end-game fights + you retrieve fighter abilities faster

    I would give charname 18 wisdom from start, and rise it even more with the tomes. With 21 wis you get +1 5th level spell, so you can cast both spells at druid level 9. However, I still prefer Fighter 6 -> Druid 10. That 1/2 APR is not a big deal for this character because you get grand mastery, and you can end up with three 5th level spells (and tons of lower level spells).

    In fact, I'm just thinking this char would be a powerhouse: good HP, good fighting abilities, really good AC with full plate, skins, armor of faith...

    May have to give him a try...
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    Dexter said:

    bengoshi said:



    Fighter 6 -> Druid 10 – you again lose 0,5 APR but get another 5th level spell slot, so that you can have great IRON SKINS and INSECT PLAGUE simultaneously and don't have to face the situation when you're obliged to choose only one 5th level spell to memorise – I see little sense not to have both these spells at the end-game fights + you retrieve fighter abilities faster

    I would give charname 18 wisdom from start, and rise it even more with the tomes. With 21 wis you get +1 5th level spell, so you can cast both spells at druid level 9. However, I still prefer Fighter 6 -> Druid 10. That 1/2 APR is not a big deal for this character because you get grand mastery, and you can end up with three 5th level spells (and tons of lower level spells).

    In fact, I'm just thinking this char would be a powerhouse: good HP, good fighting abilities, really good AC with full plate, skins, armor of faith...

    May have to give him a try...
    The difference between a level 9 druid and a level 10 druid is one extra level 4 spell and one extra level 5 spell. Also the latest a druid gets a proficiency point is level 8 in BGEE, so either way you should be able to get grand mastery. A Fighter 7 / Druid 9 is better by the end of BGEE solely because of that extra 1/2 APR and slightly better health. You just have a longer part of the game where you aren't as useful and some spells that improve with level (call lightning) aren't as powerful. With the casting time of iron skins you only really need 1, which as you've noted lets you have one memorised insect plague. So strictly from a later BGEE/BG2 standpoint in my opinion its better to go to level 7 and dual over. Either way doesn't provide a huge difference though.
  • ThrasymachusThrasymachus Member Posts: 876
    edited July 2013
    Of course, you could always simply remove the experience point limit from BGEE.

    If you're going to use the PC in BG2, it won't make that much difference in the long run (in a 6-character party it may yield an extra 60,000-80,000 exp. for the PC), but gives some flexibility with respect to dual class options (e.g., a fighter7 -> druid 10 is viable).
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    http://strefarpg.pl/baldurs-gate-2-tabele-doswiadczenia-a1469.html
    in polish but who cares
    barb/fighter
    thief/bard
    mage/sorc
    pal/ranger
    cleric/monk
    druid
    161k exp in bg:ee
    take first class less levels than other class
    good examples
    fighter7/druid9
    fighter6/druid10
    fighter7/mage
    fighter7/thief
    thief7/mage
    cleric6/mage
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