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Edwin or Baeloth?

derfascitiderfasciti Member Posts: 3
edited July 2013 in New Members Welcome Area
Hey all!

Been playing some 50 hours now on BGEE. I'm playing a purely evil party and my main Blackguard is lvl 6 along with Dorn, Kagain, Shar Teel, Viconia, and Edwin (lvl 5). However, after I found out I never explored Larswood I took a break from sewer-exploring in Baldur's Gate city in order to explore it. 'Lo and behold I meet a silly Dark Elf named Baeloth. As it happens, I've looked into as much as I could about him. It seems that he is in general even more powerful than Edwin. However, I heard that he cannot be carried into the expansion - Baldur's Gate 2 I imagine. If this is the case, if I were to want all of my former characters from BG1 in BG2 would it be a waste to drop Edwin instead of Baeloth? Are there any interesting banter/dialogue options with Baeloth (like Dorn)? Are there any combat OR story advantages or disadvantages to dropping Edwin to be replaced by Baeloth or should I just kill Baeloth and go on my merry way?

Thanks!
Post edited by derfasciti on

Comments

  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959

    Hey all!

    Been playing some 50 hours now on BGEE. I'm playing a purely evil party and my main Blackguard is lvl 6 along with Dorn, Kagain, Shar Teel, Viconia, and Edwin (lvl 5). However, after I found out I never explored Larswood I took a break from sewer-exploring in Baldur's Gate city in order to explore it. 'Lo and behold I meet a silly Dark Elf named Baeloth. As it happens, I've looked into as much as I could about him. It seems that he is in general even more powerful than Edwin. However, I heard that he cannot be carried into the expansion - Baldur's Gate 2 I imagine. If this is the case, if I were to want all of my former characters from BG1 in BG2 would it be a waste to drop Edwin instead of Baeloth? Are there any interesting banter/dialogue options with Baeloth (like Dorn)? Are there any advantages or disadvantages to dropping Edwin to be replaced by Baeloth or should I just kill Baeloth and go on my merry way?

    Thanks!

    Welcome to the game and the community :)

    I'm afraid I have bad news for u... Whilst you can bring your Player Character from BG 1 to BG 2, as I intend to do in my game, bringing your companions into BG 2 does not work like that.

    Although you can complete BG 1 with any companions you come across ingame, there is actually a 'canon' party for BG 1, consisting of Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc, Dynaheir and Imoen. At the start of BG 2, for the sake of the plot, the game assumes that those are the companions you travelled with, and everyone else is gone.

    It is worth also mentioning also that you also do not keep any gear or experience points for your NPC companions, even if you used the canon party. For example, I am playing the canon party in my game, and by the time I finish the BG 1 EE, Minsc should have 161,000 xp (the xp cap for BG 1), and I might have given him a book that improved his Constitution by 1 to 16. However, at the start of BG 2, he will only have around 70k xp and his stats will be reset to default, so his Constitution will be 15 again.

  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited July 2013
    Oh and further potential bad news... if I remember correctly, Black Guard is a new class for BG 1 EE. There is no Black Guard in BG 2.

    So... unless you wait for the indefinitely delayed BG 2 EE to be released, I don't think you can transfer a Blackguard from BG 1 EE to BG 2.

    As for your original question, which I forgot to answer. If you just want to complete the game, Edwin is already very powerful, so you certainly don't need Baeloth for anything. He is an Easter Egg character. In fact, Dorn, Neera and Rassad are all new additions for EE, with no connection to the main plot.

    Finally... this thread should be moved to 'Help for New Players (NO SPOILERS!)'. You'd get much faster responses there.
  • RemenissionsRemenissions Member Posts: 102
    I'd say go with baeloth just for the more spells. And no NPC's stats/items get taken with to the next games, only yours.

    And to add to what Heindrich1988 said, BG2 assumes you had khalid, jaheira, minsc, dynaheir, and imoen with you at the time you were taken. However when you run across old NPC's from BG1 you get to decide how you ended the terms with them just by what you say. For example: you run across branwen (you don't actually find her in BG2). You'd get options like: #1 Hail, traveler that I've never met before. #2 Branwen, you don't remember me? It's CHARNAME." #3 Uhhh, how are you alive? I killed you."
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    I'm playing a purely evil party and my main Blackguard is lvl 6 along with Dorn, Kagain, Shar Teel, Viconia, and Edwin (lvl 5).

    I don't think it's actually possible to power-game harder than this.

    (And thus the advantage to being evil in BG ... the evil companions are tough as nails)
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  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited July 2013

    I'd almost want to switch Kagain for Baeloth. Then run around with 2 awesome casters >:) Depends on your style of play too.

    Hard decision, fun decision. :D

    Disagree. Kagain is a tank, Dorn and Shar-Teel are versatile heavy hitters. If you drop a fighter at all, make it Dorn or Shar-Teel.

    ----

    Baeloth DOES get more spells than Edwin, but not by much.

    When you unlock a new level of spells:

    Generalist Mage: 1 spell/day
    Specialist Mage: 2 spells/day
    Sorceror: 3 spells/day
    Edwin: 3 spells/day

    Sooo it's funny. To over-simplify things, at Level 9 (the cap) Edwin sits at 6-5-5-4-3. Whereas Baeloth will be at 6-6-6-4. Hmm. Except, doesn't Baeloth have a ring that grants him a couple bonus spells?
    Post edited by Quartz on
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  • RemenissionsRemenissions Member Posts: 102
    His ring gives 2 2nd level, 1 3rd level, and 1 4th level.
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356

    His ring gives 2 2nd level, 1 3rd level, and 1 4th level.

    Too bad they didn't just give him the Ring of Acuity (which gives the same spell bonuses) so you could find him and take both his ring and his Cloak of the Evil Archmagi after reaching level 5.
  • Urd1enUrd1en Member Posts: 84
    edited July 2013
    I've tried them both. They are incredibly cool. Although, for pure BG:EE (with its 161K exp cap) I've chose Edwin finally and I'll explain why.


    1. THAC0, damage and APR

    [Edwin]
    He can be taught to use slings. I've managed him to have 11 THAC0 at the end of the game. Damage for +3 sling and +2 bullets combination: 3 + (2 ÷ 5) + 2 = (7 ÷ 10). APR of one.

    [Baeloth]
    He goes with darts and CANNOT acquire new weapon star in scope of 161000 exp cap. Thus, his THAC0 is limited with roughly 15. Dart damage is poor as well: (1 ÷ 3) for darts of poison/stunning, (2 ÷ 4) for darts +1. APR of three.

    So, if Baeloth aims all three times with 15 THAC0 he'll make (3 ÷ 12) dmg against Edwin's (7 ÷ 10) dmg made with 11 THAC0 which is more likely.


    2. Attack range

    There is one decisive disadvantage of darts (knifes as well) - lowered attack range. When your party have already make a volley, Baeloth, the dart user, just starts moving from the rear towards an enemy and after all finds himself ahead of you front-liners like Dorn, Kagian etc. Then a close combat phase follows. Dorn and Kagian put aside their xbows and, trying to reach an enemy, are forced to walk around Baeloth! The mess begins. Enemy front-liners start hunting your brave dart user. Predictably, you begin to move Baeloth back to the formation rear. And one more thing - Baeloth becomes a target for a ranged enemy forces since he reaches a front line.

    The only way to avoid this mess and use Baeloth efficently is to turn off his AI script and manage his attacks manualy. Personally I cannot afford such manner of play and thereby I prefer to avoid darts and throwing knifes in my party due to their unsynchronized with the rest of ranged weapons attack range.

    That's why my choise is often 2 xbows (front-liners), 2 bows (thief, bard), 2 slings (cleric, pure mage).
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    @Urd1en, the advantage of a sorceror is that they have a significant number of spells. Only against the very weakest opponents (e.g. 6-man party v 1 xvart) would it be advisable to just issue an attack command, at which point the weapons used are largely irrelevant.

    Against anyone who is even remotely a threat, spellcasters should be using their spells -and Baeloth has plenty of them.
  • Urd1enUrd1en Member Posts: 84
    Dear @HeroicSpur,

    There's one important thing you've missed: during the round a character can perform two actions - cast/use wand/use item/innate ability/drink potion & attack. For instance, "Wand of Magic Missiles" is so handy because it can increase overall amount of damage your fighters do during the round.

    Spell casting is definitely the main power of a mage/sorceror. But wasting a shot when it can be performed for free looks like inefficient approach.

    Cast, cast, cast will take the same time as cast-shoot, cast-shoot, cast-shoot.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited July 2013
    Thank you, @Remenissions. So to correct myself, at the Mage/Sorceror's Level 9 EXP cap, that would put Edwin at 6-5-5-4-3 and Baeloth at 6-8-7-5. Interesting.
    Mortianna said:

    His ring gives 2 2nd level, 1 3rd level, and 1 4th level.

    Too bad they didn't just give him the Ring of Acuity (which gives the same spell bonuses) so you could find him and take both his ring and his Cloak of the Evil Archmagi after reaching level 5.
    Agreed. Honestly I can't stand playing a pure Arcane caster because the NPCs are always better at it, whether it be Edwin or now Baeloth as well. So annoying. I just OCD too hard
  • ZanianZanian Member Posts: 332
    I'd pick Edwin for the cloudkill alone. Golly I love that spell.

    And @Quartz, a wild mage CHARNAME with min/maxed stats would probably be a better arcane caster than either of the two evil spellslingers. Customization is OP. :)
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited July 2013
    @Zanian
    Zanian said:

    I'd pick Edwin for the cloudkill alone. Golly I love that spell.

    And @Quartz, a wild mage CHARNAME with min/maxed stats would probably be a better arcane caster than either of the two evil spellslingers. Customization is OP. :)

    I'd like to think that, but in terms of raw magic power, they've got any CHARNAME beat. :\
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    edited July 2013
    Quartz said:

    @Zanian

    Zanian said:

    I'd pick Edwin for the cloudkill alone. Golly I love that spell.

    And @Quartz, a wild mage CHARNAME with min/maxed stats would probably be a better arcane caster than either of the two evil spellslingers. Customization is OP. :)

    I'd like to think that, but in terms of raw magic power, they've got any CHARNAME beat. :\
    It depends on what you mean by "raw power." The reason Edwin and Baeloth have more spells than the typical Conjurer or Sorcerer is due to their custom magical items and not because of innate ability (besides Baeloth's innate MR). If they were stripped of those items, they would have the same potential as CHARNAME at equivalent levels.
    Post edited by Mortianna on
  • maneromanero Member Posts: 392
    CHARNAME shows full potential in Baldur's Gate 2 ToB not at the begin of the saga ;)
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Since there's no carry-over of party members and Baeloth can't be recruited in the next game (obligatory "if it ever comes out" here), why not take Baeloth for BG:EE and Edwin for BG2:EE? :)
  • Nitram_Vi_HermanniaNitram_Vi_Hermannia Member Posts: 64
    I would dump Dorn, cause you already are blackguard, and take Bealoth, for pure magic awesomness in "everything will die in less then 5 seconds"
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited July 2013

    Oh and further potential bad news... if I remember correctly, Black Guard is a new class for BG 1 EE. There is no Black Guard in BG 2.

    Umm is nobody going to add some clarity to this statement? Of course you can be a blackguard in BG2EE! Its only if you bring your BG1EE character over to BG2 vanilla that there is a problem (which the OP never actually suggested or implied that that is what their plans were).
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    elminster said:

    Umm is nobody going to add some clarity to this statement? Of course you can be a blackguard in BG2EE! Its only if you bring your BG1EE character over to BG2 vanilla that there is a problem (which the OP never actually suggested or implied that that is what their plans were).

    Given that BG2:EE doesn't exist - and may never exist - it's a valid assumption that the BG2 he's talking about is vanilla BG2.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    shawne said:

    elminster said:

    Umm is nobody going to add some clarity to this statement? Of course you can be a blackguard in BG2EE! Its only if you bring your BG1EE character over to BG2 vanilla that there is a problem (which the OP never actually suggested or implied that that is what their plans were).

    Given that BG2:EE doesn't exist - and may never exist - it's a valid assumption that the BG2 he's talking about is vanilla BG2.
    It was my bad since he literally wrote it the next line :)
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155

    Quartz said:

    Disagree. Kagain is a tank, Dorn and Shar-Teel are versatile heavy hitters. If you drop a fighter at all, make it Dorn or Shar-Teel.

    Yeah, hard decision. :) Having 2 casters is fun play, but I agree that a party tank is needed and Kagain is the best of the group here.
    Just finished an evil playtrough, with Dorn, Viconia, Edwin, Neera and Safana, CHARNAME was a F/T specialized in Long Bows, Edwin used dagger, also saying that Edwin has 16 CON (more than Minsc, more than Dorn) and he has a bad DEX (10 only) and Neera, using Darts (she has 17 DEX and Viccy used Slings with her 19 DEX) also, Dorn used the Gauntelets of Dexterity to get the AC bonus,
    Safana used both Shortbow and Darts, and Drizzt's Scimitar.

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,580
    Quartz said:


    (And thus the advantage to being evil in BG ... the evil companions are tough as nails)

    But the good guys have all the archers. ;-)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited August 2013

    Quartz said:


    (And thus the advantage to being evil in BG ... the evil companions are tough as nails)

    But the good guys have all the archers. ;-)
    What about Eldoth and his poison arrows? Him using Glitterdust followed up by him shooting can be pretty deadly.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    Quartz said:


    (And thus the advantage to being evil in BG ... the evil companions are tough as nails)

    But the good guys have all the archers. ;-)
    Shar-Teel can easily be developed into a pretty nasty archer with a little time spent. And as elminster said, Eldoth has his Poison Arrows ability ... implying that he's supposed to be an archer, and yet he sucks balls at it.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    Quartz said:

    Quartz said:


    (And thus the advantage to being evil in BG ... the evil companions are tough as nails)

    But the good guys have all the archers. ;-)
    Shar-Teel can easily be developed into a pretty nasty archer with a little time spent. And as elminster said, Eldoth has his Poison Arrows ability ... implying that he's supposed to be an archer, and yet he sucks balls at it.
    He just needs some help. Otherwise he's not that bad as an archer.
  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 508


    Welcome to the game and the community :)

    I'm afraid I have bad news for u... Whilst you can bring your Player Character from BG 1 to BG 2, as I intend to do in my game, bringing your companions into BG 2 does not work like that.

    Although you can complete BG 1 with any companions you come across ingame, there is actually a 'canon' party for BG 1, consisting of Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc, Dynaheir and Imoen. At the start of BG 2, for the sake of the plot, the game assumes that those are the companions you travelled with, and everyone else is gone.

    It is worth also mentioning also that you also do not keep any gear or experience points for your NPC companions, even if you used the canon party. For example, I am playing the canon party in my game, and by the time I finish the BG 1 EE, Minsc should have 161,000 xp (the xp cap for BG 1), and I might have given him a book that improved his Constitution by 1 to 16. However, at the start of BG 2, he will only have around 70k xp and his stats will be reset to default, so his Constitution will be 15 again.

    You will find many of the companions from BG1 in BG2. Many aren't recruitable, though. There are 2 returnees aside from the 'canon' party. Also one surprise face in Throne of Bhaal.

    Also I feel I need to correct Heindrich1988 on one thing: if you have an import from tales of the sword coast(the Baldur's Gate expansion), with the player character capped at 161,000 XP, the party members will all have higher XP totals. It won't be at the cap, but it will be a fair amount higher than 70k. I don't have BG2 installed so I can't give you exact numbers. Also, companions in BG2 got some stats stepped up compared to BG1. Jaheira, for example, has higher wisdom, which gives her a few more spells.

    In general it's best to use tomes on the main character, as those stat increases will carry over to BG2. Companions will lose any tomes you give them.

    There are a limited number of inventory items that carry over to BG2. I could give you the list if you want... it's not hard to google it though. In general there are 3 locations where items selected from your player character's inventory(and only the PC's inventory, not companions) will be found. It's a very short list, and you will only find one item per location. The default items are Mail of The Dead, Helm of Balduran, and the mysterious underwear of awesome(not its real name)

    All your gold and other items are stripped from your character upon importing.
  • BarikBarik Member Posts: 5
    Quartz said:

    I'd almost want to switch Kagain for Baeloth. Then run around with 2 awesome casters >:) Depends on your style of play too.

    Hard decision, fun decision. :D

    Disagree. Kagain is a tank, Dorn and Shar-Teel are versatile heavy hitters. If you drop a fighter at all, make it Dorn or Shar-Teel.
    For me because I wanted my char to be a Berserker/Mage I couldn't drop Shar-Teel because I needed her for thieving and I didn't want to drop Dorn because I find him really interesting. So I just didn't add Kagain and when I level up I just save and reload if I get really low HP rolls.


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