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Druids

I wanted to get some opinions on this. Do you guys think Druids were just..... neglected in this series? They are downright terrible in Vanilla BG1, and only slightly improved in BG2. Yes they have a few excellent spells (insect line of spells, nature's beauty, Greater Elemental summoning, etc) but far fewer than clerics. I'm only bringing this up because of how much of a blast they are to play in Icewind Dale 1. Another 2nd ed infinity engine game that, for some reason, was able to implement Druids exceedingly well.

So what I'm asking is: Is it just me? Do you guys also feel they were "neglected"? Or do you think there was a purpose to Bioware's madness? :)

TJ_Hooker

Comments

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited July 2013
    sparta?

    no but seriously druids are subhealers they have just less usefull spells the only benefit is 10th level druid vs 8 cleric max

    i think druids in iwd1 are still weaker but elemental transforms can tank better than any cleric so on high level it is pretty similar

    actually i think that druids are more powerfull but clerics are more usefull or something like that
    1 druidic spell could destroy whole party
    clerics are not that powerfull

  • ThrasymachusThrasymachus Member Posts: 598
    Go with the Avenger! Avengers have much better spells than other druids (chromatic orb, web, etc.) and better shape-shift forms (sword spider).

    Sure they can't wear studded leather armour, but hide armour is just as good, if not better.

    CaptRory
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,958
    I think Goodberry and Fire Seeds are two examples of druid specific spells that they really didn't make practical (regardless of the PnP origins). That and the experience issues they have particularly getting to level 14 and 15. But overall I think they are a very viable class if you know how to play them.

    TJ_HookerMoomintroll
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited July 2013
    They're definitely not given their proper share. Druids are extremely versatile in PnP, but BG REALLY does not do their shape-changing justice, there's also no real point where a druids superior social abilities come into play.

    They also lack complete immunity to all innate spells and abilities of Fey creatures and immunity to web and entangle. The no tracks thing isn't a big deal though.

    They lack their metric $%#^ton of animal companions (which they start gaining at level 4, unlike most other classes' followers), they lack their innate ability to attempt to calm and charm wild animals (and yet for some reason rangers DID receive their version. The druid version is similar, just more effective...they get a bonus to their influence roll (which would mean the druid version of charm animal would have a -3 or so save penalty).

    And they lack their physical god status after 16. Complete immunity to all natural elements (they're not harmed by natural fire, cold, electricity, acid and poisons), and greater resistance to magical elements, no longer suffer penalties of aging (but can still die if their lifespan runs out). The ability to travel between elemental planes and the Prime AT WILL (and can live there as if they were a native creature), and able to bring others with them (bringing others or an excessively large load is taxing and can only be done once day). The ability to summon an elemental of their choice at will (up to 16 HD) (but only 1 at a time, and if it's slain, they can't summon another of that element for 24 hours). The constant ability to speak with animals and plants, and to speak and understand any spoken language. Can change their body at will into any elemental shape they wish and maintain it for as long as they desire, can shapeshift into ANY natural creature no matter it's size as often as they desire, doesn't not require a system shock roll and grants all abilities of the chosen form.

  • SindyanSindyan Member Posts: 140
    I think the animal comp. can be put into the system easily. There is a kit that feels that role.
    I think the overall weakness that I hope they fix in bgee2 is the lack of good druid spells. The cleric list is tons better period. You have insect line,iron skin, and nature's beauty that is useful long term.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    edited July 2013
    Sindyan said:

    I think the animal comp. can be put into the system easily. There is a kit that feels that role.
    I think the overall weakness that I hope they fix in bgee2 is the lack of good druid spells. The cleric list is tons better period. You have insect line,iron skin, and nature's beauty that is useful long term.

    yeah the kit where you can't transform into bear :(
    CamDawg said:

    I'm only bringing this up because of how much of a blast they are to play in Icewind Dale 1. Another 2nd ed infinity engine game that, for some reason, was able to implement Druids exceedingly well.

    A big part of it was the awesome spell selection--now available via IWDification for BGEE.

    i wonder if druids get elemental transformatios and bonuses like in IWD?

  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited July 2013
    CamDawg said:

    I'm only bringing this up because of how much of a blast they are to play in Icewind Dale 1. Another 2nd ed infinity engine game that, for some reason, was able to implement Druids exceedingly well.

    A big part of it was the awesome spell selection--now available via IWDification for BGEE.

    Haha, this sounds so sales pitch-y. Like there should a disclaimer:

    "Now available via IWDification for BGEE*"

    *limited time offer, while supplies last

    lunarelminster
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    if you're not playing avenger, the only spells of note in druid's selection are call lightning, summon insects, summon woodland beings, iron skins and insect plague

    the best one being summon woodland creatures, which is borderline OP. summon a couple before any bgee battle and it's almost impossible to lose. they access 5th level mage spells, have mass heal, call lightning and they're scripted with decent AI and you get the spell at level 7 which is hit with a poxy 35k XP (to put into perspective, even rogues will only be lvl 6 with 35k XP)

    so yeah, I think druids are great in bgee, but will probably suck in bg2

  • JaggedJagged Member Posts: 102
    I was actually trying to decide which druid would be the most fun through TOB. I'm trying to choose between the Berserker(7)->Druid, a F/D multi or a shapeshifter.

    I know the dual will miss out of some thaco but those immunities will be nice.

    A multi also has the benefit of pooled hlas.

    The Shapeshifter seems pretty underpowered but I really dig the idea of the class.

    Any advice?

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,958
    Jagged said:

    I was actually trying to decide which druid would be the most fun through TOB. I'm trying to choose between the Berserker(7)->Druid, a F/D multi or a shapeshifter.

    I know the dual will miss out of some thaco but those immunities will be nice.

    A multi also has the benefit of pooled hlas.

    The Shapeshifter seems pretty underpowered but I really dig the idea of the class.

    Any advice?

    If you go shapeshifter remember to use bracers to improve your (non shapeshifted) AC with. It won't make your AC amazing or anything but it will somewhat make up for your lack of armour.

    Also the dispel claw exploit still works. So if you want you can just change into a werewolf and have an NPC cast dispel magic on you. It'll let you attack with your weapon instead of your claws (but with 2 attacks per turn).

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    I still bugs me that druid equipment restrictions aren't enforced for F/D (aside from weapons)......all their equipment restrictions are a result of their druid vows, not lack of training.......why bother limit their weapons at all, if you're still allowing everything else...it's not like limiting them to druid weapons only is a disadvantage...hell..the beastmaster gets even fewer then they do and is still OP as hell.

    chickenhed
  • ogrebogreb Member Posts: 98
    Summon fire elemental.

    Jaheria ( invisible ) and her little friends killed all the beholders ( except the Blind one ). Elementals are immune to beholder magical attack. Just whack a moled that whole level.

    Insect swarm rules for keeping mages / priests down.

    If Jaheria had been another class I would probably play a Druid. I'm a nature kinda of guy anyway.

    I like Druids...reminds me of Allanon.

    chickenhed
  • FubbyFubby Member Posts: 189
    Druids arent exactly bad, just kind of badly designed. It seems like they just have a bunch of crappy spells, and then some gamebreaking spells at the 4th and 5th level. Not like clerics that just have a wide variety of good spells.

  • EleutherosEleutheros Member Posts: 70
    I've just started a bgee run with a totemic Druid. I really enjoy the early summoning. I've also used the doom+entangle combo with success a few times (e. g. with the bounty hunter by the Nashkel mines).

    This is just my third bg1/bgee run, so I'm not an expert, but the class is really interesting so far (level 3).

    elminsterThrasymachus
  • JaggedJagged Member Posts: 102

    If you go shapeshifter remember to use bracers to improve your (non shapeshifted) AC with. It won't make your AC amazing or anything but it will somewhat make up for your lack of armour.

    Also the dispel claw exploit still works. So if you want you can just change into a werewolf and have an NPC cast dispel magic on you. It'll let you attack with your weapon instead of your claws (but with 2 attacks per turn).


    I kind of feel like this is the only way to keep the shifter on par with a F/D but I can't bring myself to do it. It's clearly an exploit and if I'm a giant werewolf I'm expecting to tear things up with my claws not a couple if scimitars.

  • ThrasymachusThrasymachus Member Posts: 598
    I've already praised the avenger, which I think is the best druid kit overall, but the totemic druid is pretty good too. I wouldn't bother with the vanilla druid or shapeshifter myself. I also wouldn't recommend druid/fighter (multiclass), though dual classing into a druid from berserker (or maybe kensai) could be fun.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,958
    edited July 2013
    Jagged said:



    I kind of feel like this is the only way to keep the shifter on par with a F/D but I can't bring myself to do it. It's clearly an exploit and if I'm a giant werewolf I'm expecting to tear things up with my claws not a couple if scimitars.

    Meh it compensates for the 1d6 piercing damage they are currently doing. Is it an exploit? Yes. But the form is already kind of messed up.

  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    personaly one of my best experiances with the EE was playing a totemic druid. i found that the summons sorta make up for the underwelming spells and add alot of flavourto the kit

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,687
    elminster said:


    Jagged said:



    I kind of feel like this is the only way to keep the shifter on par with a F/D but I can't bring myself to do it. It's clearly an exploit and if I'm a giant werewolf I'm expecting to tear things up with my claws not a couple if scimitars.

    Meh it compensates for the 1d6 piercing damage they are currently doing. Is it an exploit? Yes. But the form is already kind of messed up.
    If only someone were to give the werewolf forms the weapons they were meant to have...

    IchigoRXC
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    If memory serves (hehe), when BG2 came out, Druids were capped at level 14 or something because they couldn't quite figure out how to implement some of their higher-level abilities, like shapeshifting.

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,394
    rdarken said:

    If memory serves (hehe), when BG2 came out, Druids were capped at level 14 or something because they couldn't quite figure out how to implement some of their higher-level abilities, like shapeshifting.

    They do have a profoundly stupid XP progression in BG2 since level 14 (15?) is supposed to be great druid status. They crush other classes early since they have the lowest XP to reach level 12 (only 300k). After that, though, it more than doubles to 750k for level 13, and then doubles the next two levels (1.5M to level 14 and 3M to level 15). All told progressing from level 12 to level 15 requires 10 times the XP. After that it goes to a nice, smooth, and reasonable 150k per level to 20 and then 250k per level after that. All of the other classes have their normal, smooth progression through these levels.

    elminster
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,358
    druids are so weird because they are secondary healers their spells are really weak with exception of those 5 that are better than everything

    Hlas are better than clerics
    summon elemental prince who is probably stronger in vanilla than deva and planetar


    shapeshifter with bugs like using valygars armor and dispelled claws is really good tank like seriously on scsii insane tactics my shapeshifter was tanking shangalar alone!

    f/d have some sweet other things like shapeshifted into fire elemental whirlwind attacks pretty cool

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