Why do priests need wisdom?
BelgarathMTH
Member Posts: 5,653
This thread is inspired by something @Meagloth said in another thread. He said:
... Am I the only one who thinks it doesn't make any sense that wisdom would make you a better priest? I mean spell casting wise, it doesn't make sense (to me) that the ability that lets you make good life choices also makes you able to memorize more spells. It looks to me that it does the same thing intelligence does for mages. But that's just silly little meagloth.
Here are my initial thoughts on the subject:
I've seen a lot of rpg's that substitute words like "personality", "intuitiveness", "faith", "spirit", or other such attribute names that are clearly analogous to the D&D "wisdom", as the primary attribute for priestly casting, divine magic, or healing.
Priests don't "memorize" spells in D&D lore. Rather, they pray daily, and their god gives them the mystic syllables needed. I suppose the idea is that, in order to gain this kind of power as a gift from a god, one needs to have a finely developed spiritual intuition and discipline. One needs to be able to spend long periods of time in a meditative state of consciousness, with the mental discipline to focus, and to clear the mind of all distractions.
So, that kind of mental and spiritual discipline would be what is referred to by "wisdom" in D&D, seen as the prime requisite of clerics and druids. As a side effect, that kind of disciplined, meditative mind also becomes extremely resistant to enchantment spells.
... Am I the only one who thinks it doesn't make any sense that wisdom would make you a better priest? I mean spell casting wise, it doesn't make sense (to me) that the ability that lets you make good life choices also makes you able to memorize more spells. It looks to me that it does the same thing intelligence does for mages. But that's just silly little meagloth.
Here are my initial thoughts on the subject:
I've seen a lot of rpg's that substitute words like "personality", "intuitiveness", "faith", "spirit", or other such attribute names that are clearly analogous to the D&D "wisdom", as the primary attribute for priestly casting, divine magic, or healing.
Priests don't "memorize" spells in D&D lore. Rather, they pray daily, and their god gives them the mystic syllables needed. I suppose the idea is that, in order to gain this kind of power as a gift from a god, one needs to have a finely developed spiritual intuition and discipline. One needs to be able to spend long periods of time in a meditative state of consciousness, with the mental discipline to focus, and to clear the mind of all distractions.
So, that kind of mental and spiritual discipline would be what is referred to by "wisdom" in D&D, seen as the prime requisite of clerics and druids. As a side effect, that kind of disciplined, meditative mind also becomes extremely resistant to enchantment spells.
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Now it doesn't make sense that they forget spells after casting them. That is the one problem I have always had with the spell system, if wizards and priests memorize spells, than casting them would reinforce the memory, not make them forget them.
It could be said that they casting spells uses up energy, and the more you practice, the more magical "constitution" you have, but then it shouldn't be called memorization.
And here's another problem I can't think of a good answer to, if you can read spells of of scrolls, why can't you read them out of that little book you always have with you, Mage?
Oh well. I suppose this is the same problem action movies have: I'm clever and brilliant, as long as you don't think about me too hard. But without this, we wouldn't have how it should have ended YouTube videos, so who's complaining?
Intelligence is how quickly you learn things and skills, or how bright you are. This seen in action learning spells but does not give you more spells, because why would it? Your just good at learning them.
Wisdom is how insightful you are, i.e. How well you know your deity and what he / she wants and how best you can serve him / her to gain more favour. A wise priest then will gain more priest spells because he/she knows what to say and do to get more when praying for them at the allotted time. This is because of how a wizard stores spells. He uses his book every time when he rests to store spells on his person, either in a ring, an item of focus etc. When they are needed the wizard then needs to either complete the spell or use words to release the spell. Magic is incredibly difficult to learn and use in the realms. The only spell that can be cast by a wizard without prior preparation time is Read Magic. According to DnD lore, most wizards spend most of their apprentice hood just learning this spell...
In short. More Wisdom => Better Understanding => Deeper Connection => Greater Rewards for Prayers
All attributes symbolizes a whole heap of things each, but yes. That is one of the traits abstracted into Wisdom. Among other is one's intuition, durability of the mind, ability to perceive the world, and the ability to put knowledge to practical use.
The difference is,
Arcane spells are cast through recantation of a particular process, hence they require a substantial amount of memorization. Sorcers get exception as their spells are based on will and intuition (hinthint, Charisma=whaaaaa?).
Divine spells on the other hand are cast by requesting aid from a deity requiring an influential personality and the understanding to...
Oh forget this whole argument. Y U NO SWAP SORCERER AND PRIEST DEMANDZ?!?!
By your last sentence you mean "Why do you nat swap wisdom/charisma when reffering to priest/sorcerors spellcasting?" If so, I don't think wisdom would work for sorcerors. They are people basically born with innate talent for spellcasting, and such they don't need to study and search for knowledge. No point in giving them wisdom as a stat affecting their spellcasting.
I do see it having a great deal more to do with priest as they are trying to gain influence with their gods to fuel their spells, and with the common people to spread the will of their god, not necessarily their own life perspectives, which is a trait of Charisma rather than your ability to reason and understand save for being able to rationally define the perspective of one's particular god.
About priest, well, you have some valid points. It's actuall MORE fitting than wisdom, anyway.
Wisdom, in addition to common sense, is your ability to be in tune w/ the cosmos (dude)...or to interpret the will of the gods...
No, that's perception you have just described which is a trait of Wisdom, not a full fledged definition of it. It would be like saying the term "red" and "color" are the same thing. Red is indeed a color, but not all colors are red, if that makes any sense. I think the problem with defining Wisdom in D&D is that one of the traits of Wisdom often get isolated as being wisdom rather than a part of the soup that is wisdom.
@ZelgadisGW
Wisdom also incorporates utilizing your experience, having common sense, being able to provide insight, etc. etc.. Sorcerers become more powerful as they learn to better channel their own intuitive powers based on their experience in channeling them, hence why I've always felt Sorcerers would benefit more from Wisdom than Charisma. I do not see ANY connection between having a cult of personality and a person's own intuitive ability to "channel their energy" for lack of a better term.
He is a mage, but also a priest of Mystra. ( And at one time her lover )
Does that mean he is multi class ? Cleric / Mage ?
At least he got to nail a goddess. Good job old man !
STR: 13
DEX: 18
CON: 24
INT: 24
WIS: 18
CHA: 17
Source: http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/Elminster.html
All the attending sorcerers are bragging of their exploits.
One says " I fought an Undead Beholder and defeated him and his minions "
Another " I created a new spell that binds Demons "
And on and on...
Finally noticing Elminster was not saying anything. The mages gather around and begin to pester him on latest conquests and experiences.
" So great one..what have you been doing lately ? "
Finally tiring of their banter and annoyance..he replies.
" I've been doing Jello shots off of Mystra's stomach "
-Insert cricket sounds here-
That part of definition sounds like fluid intelligence. Thank you for being insightful.
I think the argument can be made that the fluid intelligence vs. crystalline intelligence is very similar to, if not the same as the intelligence vs. wisdom comparison. Fluid being closer to D&D "Wisdom" and Crystalline being closer to "Intelligence"
Yep, I saw this similarites some time ago.
None of these questions should really be thought apon to hard, seeing as we are talking about made-up problems, we can have made-up answers.
Not that we should stop making up answers.....
Playing and having fun with our games, stories, and entertainments, and wrestling with the insights that those things can give to us, is an important part of being human, which might lead to an increase in Human Good. (See Henry Nelson Wieman, Creative Event).
Intelligence is mind dexterity.
Wisdom is mind constitution.
Charisma is mind strength.
So when you're talking about "will" used to resist magical effects and the willpower of the innate caster being the source of his magical prowess, you're actually mixing up two different concepts because they sound alike. Charisma, just like the other attributes, represents a lot of things - it's not just looks, leadership abilities, or social skills, it's also the innate force of personality and the force of your mind/spirit/being itself. Since natural casters draw power from themselves, their main stat is CHA.
As for clerics having CHA as the main stat for magic... No, that wouldn't really make sense. They're not casting from themselves the way Innate Casters do, they're just channeling their deity's powers. In 3.5, however, CHA is still a pretty influencial stat governing over the none-spellcasting abilities of Clerics (and let's not forget Paladins getting a bonus to all their saves equal to their CHA bonus).
Unlike Arcane magic, which requires a particular level of intelligence to fathom secrets of a particular spell level, divine magic can be used by anyone their deity/nature accepts as a servant because they're merely acting as a conduit for their deity/nature's will.
The minimum wisdom a cleric can have at creation is 9, which is a 20% spell failure penalty, but other effects can potentially lower it further for additional penalties.
@ogreb
3rd - (3.0 FR Campaign setting)
A fighter 1, thief 2, cleric 3, Mage 24, Archmage 5
13, 18, 24, 24, 18, 17
2nd - (From Heroes of Lore supplement)
29 Mage (while he dabbled as a fighter, thief, and cleric in his younger days, he didn't do so long enough for it to count as actual classes, and has long abandon anything beyond his mage training since).
(Due to being a chosen of Mystra he has no maximum limit on known spells and can remember and memorize any spell he's ever cast, without needing a spellbook. Is also immune to 1 spell of each spell level, chose at the time of his raising to Chosen of Mystra).
13, 18, 14, 18, 18, 17
Clerics are vessels chosen by a deity to carry out their will, it has nothing to to with how well they can read or memorize things. They are conduits for a divine beings will, power is not granted to them, it merely passes through them. Of course they are also mortal, so they have wills of their own as well. Which could lead to giving up religion for arcane knowledge, in which case wisdom wont help them much.