Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

The Underdogs - Please help me create my adventuring party

DragonRiderDragonRider Member Posts: 43
edited September 2013 in Archive (General Discussion)
I thought it would be fun to create a party using only the underpowered Kits. I was hoping you fantastic forum folks could assist me in this endeavor. I have never played the below Kits before, and what may appear underpowered to me on paper may not be in actual game play. Here are my initial thoughts:

1. Wizard Slayer
- The inability to use many powerful magic items seems a pretty bad trade for being able to inflict a small spell failure chance when hitting mages and a small amount of magic resistance.

2. Beast Master
- The inability to use metal weapons and armor is a pretty steep penalty. I can see Find Familiar being pretty strong in the early game, but but becomes a major liability later on if not kept in the backpack. In BG:EE, I don't think the summoning spells making up for the weapon and armor restrictions. The Beast Master has to reach the XP cap before getting the first spell, and even then, only 1 spell slot is available.

3. Jester
- At first glance, Confusion Song sounds nice, but enemies get a +2 bonus to their saves to resist it. Plus, even if an enemy fails the save, being confused does not necessarily stop it from attacking your party.


I'm not sure on the others. What other Kits are underpowered compared to the generic class and other kits?

I definitely need a Thief, but all the Kits seem well balanced to me.

A divine caster would be great too. I guess a generic Cleric could technically fit that bill since the Kits get extra abilities with no penalties, but that seems a bit of a stretch to me. What about a Druid Kit?

I would really appreciate hearing your thoughts and suggestions. Thanks in advance.

~Dragonrider


*Corrected the Jester's Confuse Song information. I had erroneously stated that enemies got a +4 bonus on their saves to resist Confuse Song. While this was true in BG2, but is not true in BG:EE. In BG:EE enemies get a +2 bonus to their saves to resist Confuse Song.

Post edited by DragonRider on
elminster
«1

Comments

  • Wikkid_SuhnWikkid_Suhn Member Posts: 136
    A Beast Master would be interesting. He wouldn't be able to achieve grand mastery like the WS and might be more fun to play than the jester. Are you creating a whole party or just CHARNAME?

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,301
    Personally I think it would be more of a challenge to play with a regular bard over a jester. But if you are just going for kits here then I guess its your guy :)

  • DragonRiderDragonRider Member Posts: 43
    edited September 2013
    @Wikkid_Suhn:
    I was going to create an entire party (using the set up a multiplayer game, create all the characters, then copy the save files to the single player location trick).

    @elminster
    I'm definitely open to choosing the generic class over a Kit. Why do you think that a regular Bard would be more challenging than a Jester? I would have thought it would be reverse.

    I don't have much experience playing Bards. The only one I ever played was a Skald in BG2 many years ago. I remember really enjoying that play through right up until ToB was released and the defining feature of the Kit (enhanced Bardsong) got replaced by a high level ability available to all Bard Kits. Why play a Skald (other than for role playing reasons) when you can play a Blade who can get the same high level ability Bardsong, has full access to the Two-Weapon Style proficiency, AND can perform combat spins?

    *Edit - My apologies, Wikkid_Suhn, for initially mispelling your forum handle.

    Post edited by DragonRider on
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Take the Assassin for a thief. Even though I think they are a powerful kit, they still get only 15 skill points per level - try to get them to be able to disarm all traps and open all locks...and still to fight effectively (even though, bow + poison weapon is a strong combo)

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    edited September 2013
    A jester isn't as underpowered as you think. There are no disadvantages to the kit, so you have full lore and pickpocket, and once you get the right spells - Sleep, Glitterdust - you're set. Confused enemies don't cast and attack the nearest target. So if you throw Glitterdust to lower their saves, then sing, they'll be confused and mobs will attack each other or even their own caster - who may not be confused (though it happens frequently) but still gets interrupted. And then there's borderline cheesy invisible singing.
    The biggest drawback is - if confused enemies kill each other, you miss out on the XP. So you have to be careful to always kill the higher XP ones yourself.

    A vanilla bard would be more challenging.

    For a divine caster, definitely druid. The cleric kits all have no drawbacks and the abilities are pretty good (the "weakest" would be neutral/Helm, in my opinion.) and vanilla don't have real weaknesses either.
    All druids start out rather weak, but I'd say in the long run, Totemic or vanilla would be the weakest.

    From the thieves, depends. If you usually backstab a lot, go with Swashbuckler and completely lose backstabs.

    elminster
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    @KidCarnival - Swashie is actually quite useful. Alternative to my Assassin proposal - Shadow Dancer...without sneaking skills unless you have maxed out locks&traps.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Southpaw said:

    @KidCarnival - Swashie is actually quite useful. Alternative to my Assassin proposal - Shadow Dancer...without sneaking skills unless you have maxed out locks&traps.

    Ya, Swashbuckler is just "weak" if you're used to a lot backstabbing. The kits that don't get full skill points as only thief for traps/locks would be the bigger challenge.

  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Who needs backstabbing when you have Dagger of Venom (myyyy preciousssss)

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Southpaw said:

    Who needs backstabbing when you have Dagger of Venom (myyyy preciousssss)

    My assassin backstabs WITH Dagger of Venom, so...

  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026

    Southpaw said:

    Who needs backstabbing when you have Dagger of Venom (myyyy preciousssss)

    My assassin backstabs WITH Dagger of Venom, so...
    *GASP*
    (Aye, I know...just that the poison simulates backstabs a bit ...for a kit that can't figure out what to do when you are stealth-ed and standing behind the target with a blade in your hands)

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Southpaw said:


    *GASP*
    (Aye, I know...just that the poison simulates backstabs a bit ...for a kit that can't figure out what to do when you are stealth-ed and standing behind the target with a blade in your hands)

    "So now I... tie their shoelaces together, yell "BOO!" and wait for them to trip? Alright, but... what if they wear sandals...?"

    Southpawnano
  • CoryNewbCoryNewb Member Posts: 1,330
    A monk for BG1 is often considered underpowered.

    Aristillius
  • Wikkid_SuhnWikkid_Suhn Member Posts: 136
    @DragonRider

    From what I gather, your lineup should be:

    Monk
    Druid (vanilla or totemic)
    Assassin
    Swashbuckler
    Bard (vanilla)
    Jester

    Kick. Ass.

    CoryNewb
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747

    @DragonRider

    From what I gather, your lineup should be:

    Monk
    Druid (vanilla or totemic)
    Assassin
    Swashbuckler
    Bard (vanilla)
    Jester

    Kick. Ass.

    Make that a Dark Moon Monk. I hear it's underpowered compared to just playing an evil vanilla monk.

  • GodGod Member Posts: 1,150
    Turn one of your party members, preferably Charname, into a squirrel permanently. Much fun, believe me.

    Moradinnano
  • OzzyBotkinsOzzyBotkins Member Posts: 396
    Instead of the underdogs have a group of Bards and thieves
    3 males and 3 females
    max 2 humans ( 1 of each gender )
    1 half elf
    the other 3 can be one of any of the other races
    1 Assasin
    1 Bounty Hunter
    1 swashbukler
    1 Blade
    1 Jester
    1 Skald
    That should be an interesting playthrough

    Southpaw
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Could also fall as a paladin or ranger.

    GodNight_Watch
  • GodGod Member Posts: 1,150

    Could also fall as a paladin or ranger.

    I actually enjoyed thoroughly roleplaying an inquisitor who fell because of his (formerly Brage's) cursed sword, which he used unknowingly and thus slaughtered village after village while trying to fight monsters troubling the land. It went nicely with a sounset (Soulcalibur's Siegfried's) I found on the net. Lines like 'sinners need no mercy... or sympathy', 'I will face my darkness', 'you could never understand...', 'I cannot die without fulfilling my duty', 'will I ever be saved?', 'I do not desire a false salvation' so ideally related to sin-driven insanity of this cursed-sword-wielding fallen inquisitor that I gradually altered his alignment towards Chaotic Evil, as he slowly gave in to the curse and became an utterly mad paragon of murder (true to his lineage, by the way!). Roleplaying him was tricky, it was, as he would often choose paladin-ish, do-gooder, yours-faithful answers in absence of brutal religiously-fanatical ones, only to unleash his rage a second later and likely chunk the person he offered to help a while earlier. I definitely recommend playing fallen paladins - I had a lot of fun.

    sarevok57SouthpawKidCarnivalmonico
  • MonkLoverMonkLover Member Posts: 24
    No monk? I consider it to be the hardest class to play as in BG:EE. However, if you do choose to include a monk...

    Southpaw
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,811
    heres a team I made: sunsoul monk, shapeshifter, swashbuckler, skald, illusionist/thief, cleric mage, they may sound like they can wreck shop, but damn its a hard team to play and requires poop loads of micro managing, but kinda fun at the same time

  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    Depends on if you're going for just weak for BG:EE or weak for most of the saga. If it's the later, I'd say...

    Wizard Slayer
    Beast Master
    Vanilla Bard: The jester has a better song, although it doesn't matter once you get Enhanced Bard Song.
    Vanilla Thief: Yea, he has plenty of points, but that only matters in the early game. Pretty weak in combat when not backstabbing.
    Invoker: 2 opposed schools
    Vanilla Druid or Shapeshifter: The shapeshifter is actually very strong early game, but if you're planning to use him primarily as a caster he's actually worse than a regular druid since he wear use armor.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @God: Very intrigued by the soundset. You don't happen to have a link? I'd love Voldo's "voice" for my evil jester.

  • GodGod Member Posts: 1,150
    @KidCarnival
    I did a bit of research and it turns out I initially downloaded it from Sorcerer's Place (long ago)
    http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/index_soundsets.php
    It's packed together with a lot of other soundsets in a "Soul Calibur 3 Voice Pack by Freedan the Eternal", though I regret to inform you that Voldo's is not amongst them. Also, not all of the soundsets have every single sound in place. I also might have rearranged some of the lines of Siegfried's soundset (btw featuring lines spoken by Crispin Freeman, one of the actors who voiced just about everything) to better fit my playstyle, so others may have a rather different experience should they use it.
    And, since I've been speaking about evil, there is another excellent soundset there at Sorcerer's Place, or even two of them. Namely Rayne soundset from the original BloodRayne game and from the sequel (voiced by a most remarkable Laura Bailey). Both contain a lot of really nice language (thus those who are legally bound to avoid such language should avoid it) and there is even one epic "WTF?!". Should you ever need a Charname who would use (preferably) Bodhi's paperdoll (that goes well with a portrait I uploaded somewhere else on these forums), be bitchy and have high charisma, these are the very best soundsets for that. Oh how my vampiric Charname Julia enjoyed all the blood-sucking around Forgotten Realms! I even took her through IWD :D

    KidCarnival
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    God said:

    @KidCarnival

    I did a bit of research and it turns out I initially downloaded it from Sorcerer's Place (long ago)
    http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/index_soundsets.php
    It's packed together with a lot of other soundsets in a "Soul Calibur 3 Voice Pack by Freedan the Eternal", though I regret to inform you that Voldo's is not amongst them. Also, not all of the soundsets have every single sound in place. I also might have rearranged some of the lines of Siegfried's soundset (btw featuring lines spoken by Crispin Freeman, one of the actors who voiced just about everything) to better fit my playstyle, so others may have a rather different experience should they use it.
    And, since I've been speaking about evil, there is another excellent soundset there at Sorcerer's Place, or even two of them. Namely Rayne soundset from the original BloodRayne game and from the sequel (voiced by a most remarkable Laura Bailey). Both contain a lot of really nice language (thus those who are legally bound to avoid such language should avoid it) and there is even one epic "WTF?!". Should you ever need a Charname who would use (preferably) Bodhi's paperdoll (that goes well with a portrait I uploaded somewhere else on these forums), be bitchy and have high charisma, these are the very best soundsets for that. Oh how my vampiric Charname Julia enjoyed all the blood-sucking around Forgotten Realms! I even took her through IWD :D
    Ah well, Voldo is just hissing at best; would have been too good to be true if someone went through the trouble for that as a voiceset. :|

    God
  • DragonRiderDragonRider Member Posts: 43
    Thank you all for your suggestions. The Underdogs are really starting to come together. I'm still a little unsure on the last two slots, but here's the team line-up I'm leaning towards:

    Wizard Slayer
    Beastmaster
    Bard
    Dark Moon Monk
    Druid
    Final (Thief?) slot

    KidCarnival reminded me about the Dark Moon Monk. From what I have read on the forums, the general take on the kit is that it is underpowered compared to the other Monk kits. MonkLover also brings up a very good point about Monks being difficult to play in BG:EE.

    I'm leaning towards Vanilla Druid. I think a Totemic Druid is slightly more powerful than a vanilla Druid because Shapeshifting forms that a vanilla Druid can turn into are nothing special. Summoning spells/abilities have many more uses than wolf and bear form.

    mylegbig's suggestion and go with Shapeshifter that remains in human form would definitely make for an underpowered character. Not using certain abilities of a good class/kit to make them weaker is not what imagined for The Underdogs. My vision was to build a team of the least powerful classes/kits and come up with strategies for using what abilities they have to make them successful. Maybe after I finish the game with The Underdogs, I'll put together a team that focuses on class/kit weaknesses. It could be very interesting playing a team like that. Human form only Shapeshifter, melee Archer, ranged Berserker, etc. KidCarnival's and God's fallen Paladin/Ranger idea would work well in a group like that too.

    Southpaw's idea about choosing Assassin or Shadowdancer is interesting. In no way are those kits underpowered (in fact in many situations they can be absurdly powerful). However, being the only Thief in the party forces them to spread the few thieving points they get each level around to focus on party success instead of individual power. While this is similar to the above and doesn't exactly fit my vision for The Underdogs, this is the only option I can see of creating a Thief kit Underdog.

    What if The Underdogs had to get creative about disarming traps and opening locks? mylegbig's idea of playing an Invoker because of the 2 prohibited schools, could work for this. The Invoker could cover the lockpicking by memorizing a lot of Knock spells. I could also have the Druid and the Bard memorize summoning spells to cover trap disarming. I know that a Sorceror can be very powerful, but what about Dragon Disciple? The one less spell known per level seems a pretty steep price to pay for the other abilities it gets. A Dragon Disciple with Knock and Summoning spells could handle traps and locks...

    JuliusBorisov
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I don't think Evocation really has two forbidden schools in BG. All "kits" have one forbidden school and one bonus spell. The most you can gimp a mage would be vanilla (to not get the extra spell) and possibly - if it doesn't go against your idea - mid-range INT to limit the number of spells and success change for scribing.

    The spell "Find Traps" only finds traps. It can't disarm them, you still need a thief for that.

  • DragonRiderDragonRider Member Posts: 43

    I don't think Evocation really has two forbidden schools in BG. All "kits" have one forbidden school and one bonus spell.

    I just created an Invoker to test this, and you are absolutely correct. I believe this is something they might have changed in BG:EE. According to all my old manuals for the original game, the Invoker had 2 forbidden schools, Enchantment/Charm and Conjuration/Summoning. In BG:EE, Invokers only have Enchantment as a forbidden school. Thanks for catching that.

  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
  • DragonRiderDragonRider Member Posts: 43
    rdarken said:

    Hey, I love Swashbucker :(

    I love the Swashbuckler kit as well. People seem to either love it or hate it. Many of the arguments against the kit being good are made by people who make heavy use of the Backstab ability. "Why bother with Swashbuckler, when you can go dual or multiclass Fighter/Thief to get most of the same benefits without any of the disadvantages?" Their arguments are valid, but so are the arguments as to why the kit is good that are made by people who like to kit. It's all personal preference thing. The great thing is that you have a lot of freedom in the BG series and are free to play or not play whatever class/kit you want.

Sign In or Register to comment.