Cleric
Edwin_Odesseiron
Member Posts: 226
The Cleric is a heavily-armoured divine spellcaster. They can only use blunt or spiked weapons and a sling.
There are some cleric kits based on alignment, but that doesn't change the above attributes. However, there's one type of cleric they don't ever cover:
"The Cultist".
In fantasy, how many times have we seen this type of cleric? Prophets, sects, cults, etc. They are usually evil-aligned and sacrifice people to their dark gods by cutting out their hearts and eating them. Or whatever. Kind of hard to cut out a heart with a mace, hammer, morning star, flail, or sling though.
My point being, even in BG2:TOB, the story is your mother, a priestess of Bhaal tried to sacrifice you "upon the bloodiest of altars" to Bhaal. Now, I wonder how she tried to do this. By smashing your head in with a mace, or war hammer? Ehhh, I'm more inclined to imagine a dagger slitting your throat or something like that. Additionally, I don't picture her in full-plate armour, but rather, robes, perhaps with a cowl.
This is an archetype completely ignored by the series for gameplay purposes, yet used in the game itself. Your mother is but one example. There are priests all over the place in robes, and storylines with cults and whatnot. Restricting the cleric to what is, essentially, a type of knight is ridiculous.
So, there should be a new kit introduced: (We'll call it "The Cultist" for now):
- Cannot wear any armour (but may wear mage robes)
- Can use daggers on top of other cleric weapons.
- Advances in mage spells at half speed of a mage, up to level 5 spells. In practice, this means that the cleric would have to be around level 20 before he could cast 5th level spells.
- Does not scribe scrolls. Instead, picks a certain amount of spells to put in spellbook on level up, then memorizes spells from that pool.
So it's kind of like a cleric/mage, but weaker, since he can't cast mage spells past level 5 (and they take him a lot longer to achieve, plus can cast a lot less of them). These 5 levels of mage spells are given to him in exchange for not being able to wear armour, thus, making him weaker defensively. I feel this would be a pretty balanced class.
The character doll should look like a mage, or a robed figure (maybe like a cowled wizard).
This is just a rough sketch, of course. I thought about it for about half an hour and had to write it down.
Some serious thought should be put into this and it should be introduced as a kit, because the series is ignoring a very interesting fantasy archetype.
There are some cleric kits based on alignment, but that doesn't change the above attributes. However, there's one type of cleric they don't ever cover:
"The Cultist".
In fantasy, how many times have we seen this type of cleric? Prophets, sects, cults, etc. They are usually evil-aligned and sacrifice people to their dark gods by cutting out their hearts and eating them. Or whatever. Kind of hard to cut out a heart with a mace, hammer, morning star, flail, or sling though.
My point being, even in BG2:TOB, the story is your mother, a priestess of Bhaal tried to sacrifice you "upon the bloodiest of altars" to Bhaal. Now, I wonder how she tried to do this. By smashing your head in with a mace, or war hammer? Ehhh, I'm more inclined to imagine a dagger slitting your throat or something like that. Additionally, I don't picture her in full-plate armour, but rather, robes, perhaps with a cowl.
This is an archetype completely ignored by the series for gameplay purposes, yet used in the game itself. Your mother is but one example. There are priests all over the place in robes, and storylines with cults and whatnot. Restricting the cleric to what is, essentially, a type of knight is ridiculous.
So, there should be a new kit introduced: (We'll call it "The Cultist" for now):
- Cannot wear any armour (but may wear mage robes)
- Can use daggers on top of other cleric weapons.
- Advances in mage spells at half speed of a mage, up to level 5 spells. In practice, this means that the cleric would have to be around level 20 before he could cast 5th level spells.
- Does not scribe scrolls. Instead, picks a certain amount of spells to put in spellbook on level up, then memorizes spells from that pool.
So it's kind of like a cleric/mage, but weaker, since he can't cast mage spells past level 5 (and they take him a lot longer to achieve, plus can cast a lot less of them). These 5 levels of mage spells are given to him in exchange for not being able to wear armour, thus, making him weaker defensively. I feel this would be a pretty balanced class.
The character doll should look like a mage, or a robed figure (maybe like a cowled wizard).
This is just a rough sketch, of course. I thought about it for about half an hour and had to write it down.
Some serious thought should be put into this and it should be introduced as a kit, because the series is ignoring a very interesting fantasy archetype.
4
Comments
No, ty.
Besides, daggers are only the half of it. My other gripe is with clerics being heavily armoured tanks, which this archetype is not. At all.
The Paladin has partly usurped this role, which may well explain some of the changes to the Cleric that occur in 3E and onward. In later editions Clerics are able to use a variety of weapons including daggers and swords depending on their patron deity.
1. the Cleric is based on D&D interpretations, BG is based on D&D, therefore the Cleric is accurate to D&D not to other fantasy/historical representations of Clerics or cultists
2. Cults are usually alternative religions that aren't divine in their roots. See Kabbalah, Scientology for real life examples and in BG the Aec cultists who worship a demon and the Eyeless worship Beholders. Clerics worship Gods.
3. You also have the sacrificial head in a groove on a rock smashed open with a club option
4. You also don't have to be a Cleric to be religious (and have divine favour) in the FR setting.
in the end, i personally wouldn't like to see it, but that's what mods are for. it shouldn't be difficult to make this yourself
2. A cult is only a cult until it has enough followers to call itself a religion. Alternative religions aren't just sects that promise nothing. They promise that they are the ones with TRUE divine power or wisdom, and that other religions are false. Some religions in Faerun started as cults. Clerics worship established Gods, cultists worship lesser-known deities. They are both divine.
3. You could snap someone's neck. Or feed them to lions. Or anything, really. It doesn't take away from the fact that sacrificial daggers, cutting, slitting, and so forth are a prominent part of cults and cultists.
4. This only proves my point further. They don't need to be ordained clerics, per se, but they would be considered priests and such within their cult, thus the cleric class would best fit the description. "The cleric is a generic priest (of any mythos) who tends to the spiritual needs of a community....." The community could be the cult the priest is leading. As I said, a cult is only a cult until it is large enough to be called a religion.
Finally, there's so many different gods in D&D. A cleric who worships Mask, for instance should pride himself on the usage of daggers as weapons of choice. Yet, he cannot due to the stupid restriction.
A number of what are now mainstream religions or religious orders were initially described as cults, or have cults within them. For example, various Catholic saints have had religious groups referred to as "cults" which specifically venerate an aspect of belief typified by the saint while also being Roman Catholic.
The use of "cult" as a perjorative appears to be fairly recent, likely early 20th Century.
With the exception that the Witch Doctor is only available to half-orcs and other more... "unique"... humanoids. They're also limited to the weapons available to wizards, plus tribal weapons and cannot wear any sort of armor. The real downside is that a Witch Doctor is limited to a single school of magic (but have none of the bonuses or penalties of specialist wizards).
2° Scenario: Yes they would use the daggers, but that means they should always use it? No. Because of ethos, preference or another reason, in fact it didn't even matter, it's a question of power control in AD&D, what is changed in 3.5Ed that works with another set of rules.
Besides, you can roleplay an desesperate use of a dagger in PnP, but a PC system must have a set of rules.
@Kamuizin,
1: Depends on what god you worship. You cannot generally make such a statement when there are so many different gods. There would be clerics who would love (and it would suit them) to use daggers. Tiax and Viconia are two NPC's which immediately came to mind of in-game examples. A chaotic evil priest from Permidion's example would be another. They would love to spill blood.
2: Once again, depends what god you worship. If you worshiped Mask in the example I gave above, I can't see why his clerics would not be dual-wielding dagger maniacs.
So though the DnD clerics may be based on medieval christian "no blood" values, it just doesn't make the cut here, so to speak. Why? Because of the existence of evil. Evil priests would have no qualms about spilling blood, for ritual or pleasure.
Pretty easy to find, actually. Giving how popular this mod is.
Unfortunately, either that theory hadn't yet been disproven in the 70s, or else Gygax just chose to ignore the many, many counterexamples of priests, bishops, etc. reportedly using swords and polearms in the middle ages.
Which is all to say that the priest weapon restriction is really nothing more than a D&D tradition and has no real reason to exist in the first place.
There's already a mod called "Ashes of Ember" that does this.
That being said, I do believe they are slowly but steadily reneging on that position with every new D&D generation. It makes sense, too; a Priestess of Lolth having qualms about shedding blood? Yeah, that's likely to happen... They're trying to preserve some of the flavor, but I've seen several types of cleric already that are allowed certain sharp weapons. If you want to translate that to BG, I believe there is an *extensive* cleric expansion mod out there with a gazillion different kits (Faiths of Faerûn I believe it was called? Something like that), several of which have their own set of weapon restrictions that may or may not include sharp weapons.
Also, this discussion seems to crop up regularly, I distinctly remember talking about the topic on this forum before...
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/15358/why-cant-clerics-use-sharp-weapons
I guess you're right. This guy who actually played with Gygax shoots down the other sources that say it was for balance.
I'd like to see a priest kit that neuters the armored tank aspect of the class in favor of a more magelike build. I see no reason why it wouldn't be consistent within the Forgotten Realms setting, at least with some research put into it.
In the Request of favored soul as an kit i even touch the possibility of run outside the weapon limit to clerics, so it's not a black and white way of think i'm applying here.
For better or worse there's the prohibition on the AD&D system for slashing and piercing weapons to clerics, based on kits or into special significance i can see these rules being put down, but a power control would be needed to couter the imbalance that can come from something like this, not that daggers would imbalance too much the game.
Now that the core point of the discussion is already been dealed, lemme go back to the roleplay justifies:
D&D is partially based on Medieval time age and Christian culture or values isn't something so strong in the game, we had discussions about this issue in the past on the forum and that's the conclusion many reached here based on lore of D&D rulebooks and novels.
Evil doesn't mean bloodthirst or even if it does, it will not meant that his or her evil deity is a understandable entity. It's not a question of evil or good that restrain the use of daggers or enforce it, it's a question of religious culture in game. When i play the game i roleplay the restrictions as preferences, a Cleric is supposed to be trained in the use of impact weapons, so he will always prefer these over pierce or slashing weapons. But inside a CRPG how to simulate that? With a restriction of use.
In the 1st and 2nd edition AD&D worlds, clerics can also worship extra-planar beings, such as Archdevils and Demon Princes, which, technically, aren't divine. Therefore, non- and semi-divine beings can also be served by clerics. I would argue that the worshippers of Aec'Letec and The Unseeing Eye view them as divine, or at least one their way towards attaining divinity.
2hded Swords actually.
Helm -
Bulwark: They can be proficient 2hded Swords, +2 saves vs illusions and at level 7+ can cast a stronger version of Glyph of Warding once per day, but if blinded by any means must save or be struck by fear (as per the spell) for 1d12 hours (HOURS) (and lose all extra bonuses until their sight is restored), and have to donate 50% of all income to the church of helm.
Questioner: Can be proficient in 2hded Swords. Casts Protection and Guardian spells as if 1 level higher. Spells that locate objects have a 24 hour duration instead of their normal duration. Cannot cast spells of the plant or animal spheres and suffer a -4 reaction penalty when dealing with natives of Northern Faerun.
Talos-
where as a Chaos Lord of Talos can use bastard swords, and gets +1 hit/damage when doing so, but can only cast spells from the chaos sphere (the spells get a bonus -4 save penalty, on top of any penalty they already posses).
And a Stormlord of Talos can be proficient in the use spears in addition to other cleric weapons, and when using a spear or staff cast a special Call Lightning once per day, per 4 levels, with a cast time of 1. They also get major elemental access, but can never cast any healing/curing or raising spells.
Lathander -
Springlord cast healing spells and turn undead as if 2 levels higher, and get a +2 bonus for healing NCP checks. Cannot cast any spells from the Combat sphere. Cannot wear armor greater then chainmail and may only use clubs, quarterstaves, and slings.