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Roleplayers! How do you justify dual-classing in BG?

Just like in the title. While roleplaying, how do you justify dual-classing in Baldur's Gate series, considering it's mechanics? The fact that, for example, your experienced fighter suddenly decided to be a mage and thus, immediately forgotten how to hold a sword?

I was utterly unable to come up with a right justification, hence I never dual class my character. I just couldn't come up with any even half-reasonable explanation.

I'm just curious how other people approach this problem, if they conisder that a problem at all.

Comments

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,366
    I don't look at it as a "sudden" decision. I may figure my fighter has always been interested in magic AND combat. When the day of the switch arrives it means he has decided to spend all of his time mastering the new discipline.
    It is a little wonky in BG because it does let you make that switch instantly. In PNP, most DMs I played with required a character to be out of action for months, or even years of training for a new class.
    But either way, once the switch is made, we assume the new Mage is focused entirely on their new skills, and can't be distracted by their old profession until they've achieved some level of proficiency in their new one.

    Just an aside, every 2E based PNP game I've played in the last 15 years has dumped dual class rules, and replaced them with some form of multi-classing open to everyone.
  • pixie359pixie359 Member Posts: 251
    I could see dualing out of cleric as a crisis of faith. Perhaps doing it from any class when you lose your soul or after the experiments in Chateau as you could be damaged in either process. Otherwise it's difficult.
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    pixie359 said:

    I could see dualing out of cleric as a crisis of faith. Perhaps doing it from any class when you lose your soul or after the experiments in Chateau as you could be damaged in either process. Otherwise it's difficult.

    The most logical spot I could see CHARNAME considering dualing out of Cleric is when you read Sarevok's diary and find out you're the son of Bhaal.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    pixie359 said:

    I could see dualing out of cleric as a crisis of faith. Perhaps doing it from any class when you lose your soul or after the experiments in Chateau as you could be damaged in either process. Otherwise it's difficult.

    THIS

  • pixie359pixie359 Member Posts: 251
    Maybe it would start you doing something new, but I don't know why you'd forget your old stuff then.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,366
    Kaltzor said:

    pixie359 said:

    I could see dualing out of cleric as a crisis of faith. Perhaps doing it from any class when you lose your soul or after the experiments in Chateau as you could be damaged in either process. Otherwise it's difficult.

    The most logical spot I could see CHARNAME considering dualing out of Cleric is when you read Sarevok's diary and find out you're the son of Bhaal.
    The problem with that is you get them back later. I could see this if there was some sort of fallen cleric option. But for simple dual classing, it has to be more a case of being a cleric AND something else. Being another sort of holy warrior, or a wizard in service of a higher calling.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    for me it isn't so much as 'Forgetting' how to hold a sword so much as a commitment to the new profession to such a degree that you are forgoing the use of previously learned skills. It's like deciding to ride your bike to work every day. Sure, on the days you don't want to do that, you can always drive your car, but the more you do that the less likely that riding your bike will take as a preferred method of travel.

    Now, the other piece of it that does bother me is that, in my PnP days, you had to take time off line (weeks or months) to train up a level or to another class. That is something that doesn't lend itself to any sort of mechanics that I am aware of, particularly in BG2 when you are on the clock to save a friend.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,366
    One funny thing I've seen along these lines in a game that allowed adding a "multi" class to an existing character; an eighth level fighter added Mage (1st level of course). We had a big adventure. Afterwards the DM says to him "well you shot your bow or swung your sword the whole night, except for one Magic Missile at the end of the last battle, so you get 9950 XP to fighter, and 50 XP to Mage."(!). I think he eventually made 9th level fighter before he made 2nd level Mage. Too funny.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Keep in mind that the Baldur's Gate version of dual-classing is a necessary-but-flawed interpretation of the PnP version. In PnP, you don't precisely lose access to your old abilities. Instead, if you use any abilities from your old class, you don't get any experience from the encounter. Which makes sense, because you're falling back on your old abilities instead of learning to use your new ones. But it's hard to implement in a video game, so they just went with locking out the use of old abilities entirely. You eventually get those abilities back because you're eventually more powerful in your new class than you were in the old one, so using old abilities becomes a simple augmentation of your skills rather than a crutch.

    So basically, I justify it by saying that my character's decided that their current class isn't for them and that you're going to focus on something else. For example, when my barbarian dualled into druid, it was because she'd decided, after being out of Candlekeep for awhile, that she really liked this whole nature thing and that she wanted to be a part of it. To that end, she focused on connecting herself to nature and using that connection in battle (because she knows she learns best in dangerous situations), instead of relying on her old standby of "whack it with a stick until it falls down." Eventually she did connect to nature to her satisfaction, and she gladly started incorporating stick-whacking back into her fighting style.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    In PnP, you gain no experience toward your new class if you use your old skills, IIRC. Thus, you don't suddenly "forget" how to hold a sword, but swinging a sword does not help your magic skills catch up, in the case of a Fighter/Wizard.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    I've often thought of a CHARNAME fighter being influenced by Imoen and turning thief. And why not? Siblings are a powerful influence.
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    You picked up on fighting skills from the guards of Candlekeep, but you always dreamed of magic. Gorion, knowing your true heritage, came up with an excuse to not teach you mage spells. He dies, your quest begins, and you get by with the skills you know rather than the ones you wish you had. Months later, though your skill at arms has increased dramatically and has served you well, you decide that your extreme intellect is wasted as a warrior, and you begin to study arcane magic. You refuse to utilize advanced weaponry during this period, because you're learning magic on the fly with little to no tutelage and need to concentrate fully on it in order to have any hope of getting better.

    This makes several assumptions about Charname's thought process, background, and natural capabilities, but is far from impossible. Optimally you'd be able to fall back on your first class's skills in a pinch, but considering the limitations of the engine I think it's fine.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    There are some things that just won't ever be logical. I don't see a mage dual classing to a fighter, but i could see a fighter dual classing to a mage. Same thing goes with clerics, with the exception of a cleric of mask that might dual class to a rogue.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    I can, of course, get that learning new skills takest time, concentraction and dedication and that alone is pretty easy to justify. But, "suddenly forgetting" part is the problem. Even taking into consideration the effort made to learn something new, it seems impossible to justify former fighter not being able to defend himself properly in life-or-death situation. Even "forgetting" your skills with swords takes time.

    But I'm glad that at least in some contects it can be justified. Like that Cleric example. Durning his faith crisis, he loses spells that his deity granted him, so naturally he have to learn something new to survive as an adventurer. It makes sense.

    Anyway, this discussion is going to be more interesting than I've thought.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    I don't do dual classing. I am still angry at imoen for not being able to hide in shadows, ever sines BG2
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    Madhax said:

    You picked up on fighting skills from the guards of Candlekeep, but you always dreamed of magic. Gorion, knowing your true heritage, came up with an excuse to not teach you mage spells. He dies, your quest begins, and you get by with the skills you know rather than the ones you wish you had. Months later, though your skill at arms has increased dramatically and has served you well, you decide that your extreme intellect is wasted as a warrior, and you begin to study arcane magic. You refuse to utilize advanced weaponry during this period, because you're learning magic on the fly with little to no tutelage and need to concentrate fully on it in order to have any hope of getting better.

    This makes several assumptions about Charname's thought process, background, and natural capabilities, but is far from impossible. Optimally you'd be able to fall back on your first class's skills in a pinch, but considering the limitations of the engine I think it's fine.

    I get the "I'm a wizard now, I'm not using armor or wielding swords" thing. But, it's always seemed odd that the character loses his skill in weapons legal to his new class. Example: the PC is a fighter and has become a master of the quarterstaff. He advances to 9th level and therefore has a 9 THAC0 with a staff (12 base THAC0 +3 for mastery). He dual-classes to wizard and takes his wizard weapon proficiency in slings. Now, his staff THAC0 is 25, and he can't reliably hit large, inanimate objects when swinging his staff.
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416

    Madhax said:

    You picked up on fighting skills from the guards of Candlekeep, but you always dreamed of magic. Gorion, knowing your true heritage, came up with an excuse to not teach you mage spells. He dies, your quest begins, and you get by with the skills you know rather than the ones you wish you had. Months later, though your skill at arms has increased dramatically and has served you well, you decide that your extreme intellect is wasted as a warrior, and you begin to study arcane magic. You refuse to utilize advanced weaponry during this period, because you're learning magic on the fly with little to no tutelage and need to concentrate fully on it in order to have any hope of getting better.

    This makes several assumptions about Charname's thought process, background, and natural capabilities, but is far from impossible. Optimally you'd be able to fall back on your first class's skills in a pinch, but considering the limitations of the engine I think it's fine.

    I get the "I'm a wizard now, I'm not using armor or wielding swords" thing. But, it's always seemed odd that the character loses his skill in weapons legal to his new class. Example: the PC is a fighter and has become a master of the quarterstaff. He advances to 9th level and therefore has a 9 THAC0 with a staff (12 base THAC0 +3 for mastery). He dual-classes to wizard and takes his wizard weapon proficiency in slings. Now, his staff THAC0 is 25, and he can't reliably hit large, inanimate objects when swinging his staff.
    I interpret it as less of a loss of skill and more of a conscious mental block.

    Let's say you're learning Spanish, and talk to someone who understands both Spanish and English. You're entirely capable of speaking to them in English, and would impart your point much more effectively that way, but you've made the decision to immerse yourself in the Spanish language. So, you struggle with your new language, rather than relying on your mastery of your old one.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    It's because of fighting styles.

    Even though there's mechanically no difference, each class has a completely different style of combat.

    A fighter fights in a completely different manner then thief, and in order to pick up their new skills quickly, instead of taking taking around a decade of training like getting to lvl 1 the first time does, they have to throw themselves into to learning their new class until their level of proficiency has exceeded their old class, at which point they've mastered their new class enough to blend their styles together without harming their learning speed. Their previous experience gives them a slight leg up on learning, and they can transfer some of it, to allow them to become level 1 in their new class quickly.


    Wizards focus more on trying to avoid attacks, while still being able to cast spells, so they can't focus themselves to use their fighter thac0/extra attacks, because they're having to concentrate on the enemies attacks, while juggling spell components, hand-signs, and constantly weighing the situation as in, is it time to use a spell or should I just save it and wait since they don't have years of study of when a spell is and isn't actually needed.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I actually have a rule that i require indviduals in my party to have similar or related skills to the ones of the clas i am dualing into. This is especially true if I am allowing myself to dual into a kit (via Shadowkeeper, obviously). I will give the example of my Fighter turned Assassin.

    She was initially trained as a Fighter by the Candlekeep Watchers. Like them, she fights mainly with a quarterstaff. Over the course of the journey, she realises that her personal aptitudes are more suited to those of a rogue, and so at some point she makes the conscious decision to change classes, which I guess is more an alteration in the way she decides to fight: she starts privileging stealth and first-strikes above the endurance her fighter training taught her. She also realises that she should try and gain aptitude with other types of weapon. She is also, as I mentioned, dualling into Assassin, rather than straight Thief. To accommodate this I usually turn to her companions. In some ways I actually found this easier to justify, since the reduction in Thief points per level could be RP'd as due to the fact that she was learning a new profession.

    Since she was Evil (LE, to be specific), her long-term companions included, at various times: Montaron and Xzar, Edwin, Dorn, Shar-Teel, Viconia, Eldoth. (I should note that I also dual Shar to Thief most time and Xzar to Cleric, and I usually RP this somehow as well, but we're dealing with Bhaalspawn here). In my mind there are a few main skills I need to account for.

    1) Basic Thief Skills: Montaron, initially, and later Shar-Teel since she duals prior to Charname and can give 'tips'.
    2) A deeper knowledge of human and beast anatomy: Xzar, who as a necromancer likely has fairly in-depth knowledge of these things.
    3 Weapon Proficiencies. In this case Longsword from Shar-Teel and Crossbow from Dorn.
    4) The 'Poison Weapon' skill: Dorn, who actually has the skill.

    I will also build into the character some innate but possibly buried inclinations towards certain things. For example, with this charname, I already RP that she has a certain fascination with the body and its strengths and weaknesses, due primarily to her trying to overcome a low Constitution score. She also has relatively high intelligence and is thus capable of memorising and learning information quickly.
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,538
    For me, when I join the shadow thieves and have to perform some shady thieving business for them (whether in BG1 or BG2) is a good incentive to dualclass into a thief.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    To tell the truth I never dual-classed my characters--not even once! Be it in Baldur's Gate, PnP or otherwise. There, I said it. :P
  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 420
    I've quit one job and started a completely different job in my life. I see no reason why it's such a hard leap of logic to do the same thing in a game.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,366
    Nic_Mercy said:

    I've quit one job and started a completely different job in my life. I see no reason why it's such a hard leap of logic to do the same thing in a game.

    It's not a hard leap. And once you've completed your training in your new job, you're free to use the knowledge of you're previous job.
  • FaldursBateFaldursBate Member Posts: 1
    I like to think of it in these terms (SPOILER ALERT):

    The charname's divine heritage fully manifesting. I like this reasoning because it does away with the justification that the charname needs to train: he or she is simply discovering a new innate talent and his or her "old" skills fall by the wayside while she or he explores and becomes accustomed to these new found abilities. Once the charname fully "grows" (read: regains previous class abilities) into his or her new power, the charname is now confident enough to effectively combine these skills into a new fighting style. For example, a fighter =>mage is now proficient enough in spellcasting to confidently dual wield swords with the same skill prior to "discovering" his innate affinity for magic.

    Moreover, in my mind it justifies why the charname no longer grows in the previous class. The charname has come into his or her "true" abilities (whether it be with arcane magic, divine magic, or increased strength and agility in the case of physically oriented classes). The charname just feels the divine power coursing through his or her veins and naturally these powers mature further over time/experience. As such the charname only keeps (but does not further develop) old skills while growing exponentially more powerful in his or her "Bhaalspawn" fueled abilities.

    Now one might think, "Wait! I am good aligned character, I am fighting the call of my Bhaalspawn blood, not embracing it!" But, I also like this justification because it is generally consistent with the main plot as well (i.e. the dream powers you receive over the course of BG1 etc.). The charname gains "good" abilities by fighting against the origin of his or her power. In a sense, the source of the divine power is irrelevant: You are the spawn of an evil god, but how that power manifests is shaped by your individual character and the choices you make.

    I realize now this justification does not work well with NPCs. But I never dual them (except Imoen...) so I have never put much thought into it. But in the context of "normal" people, a lot of the posted ideas work really well for me.
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