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Better as a single class

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  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Lord_Tansheron If you're looking to establish a baseline, you should be playing an unmodded game.
    LordRumfishnano
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited October 2013
    And the mage's defensive buffs are equally redundant due to the Berserker's immunities, making it pointless to memorize them in the first place over other spells, thus the berserker is always better due to having a 10 round ultimate buff that stops basically every thing, 3-4 times per day. Which is WAY more damage then a kensage can ever hope to match.

    This has nothing to do with PVP, this is purely PVE, and it remains perfectly relevant no matter which mods you play, provided they don't do something like Anvil and totally gimp one class to the point of uselessness while buffing a favorite to OP levels. SCS and Tactics change nothing that would affect this dynamic and actually FAVOR a berserkage because you can memorize additional remover spells and have a powerful buff that CANNOT be removed, and not only that, the berserker is out and out tougher then the kensai can possibly be.

    In Difficulty mods, survivability trumps damage, ALWAYS.


    (A moot point in my case, since I've nerfed most stuff that is within my power to do so down (or up) to PnP levels, which solves a lot of issues out of hand).
    JuliusBorisovdoomdoomdoom
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    @FinneousPJ: I try to base my argument on vanilla as much as possible (regardless of what I play myself); it's important though to keep in mind that while some distinctions may not become apparent in an unmodded game, they are still there. That's why I frequently mention high-difficulty setups - they illustrate my point better, but they rarely change the underlying paradigm.

    @ZanathKariashi: I'm not denying that Berserker Rage has its uses, but from my experience the effects it protects against are not actually something that comes up often. Regularly to be sure, but most of the time it's in an environment where dealing with it differently (dps priorities, interrupts, etc.) is preferable. The one instance I can think of with lots of disabling effects thrown around is Mind Flayers. No doubt a Berserker is very useful there, and better than a Kensai. Still, one situation does not make it better in general - a Kensai's passive damage is pretty much always useful, requires no activation (though you can of course activate Kai for even more), and is quite important especially with difficulty mods. While survival is important, I've found that one of the best ways to survive is to kill things before they become a problem. Even small amounts of damage can be crucial for that. Playing it safe and emphasizing survival is a valid option, but I found that with practice you can make things faster and more efficient by playing more aggressively.
    nano
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    What passive damage? Berserkers and F/M can use the gauntlets of pwnage AND get everything a Kensage can, if you don't care about the downtime (same as a kensage, instead of dualing at 9), which as everyone points out is pointless from a power-gaming standpoint. +2 hit/damage and a extra 1/2 attack is worth way more then +4 additional damage without the 1/2 attack. And under rage the berserker deals roughly 180 more damage per use of the ability, assuming you hit 9 attacks with IH (where as the Kensai tops out at 8, due to the lack of the gauntlets), and due to it's 10 round duration can be combined with other stuff like CS or GDB, where as Kai takes up your ability use for that round.

    nano
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    edited October 2013
    Just checking, but a Berserkage dualling at 9 would actually be able to max their APR (with speed weapon in off-hand), right, as opposed to the Kensage at same level, due to the Gauntlets of Ex. Specialisation adding the 1/2 APR they would normally get at 13? 1.5 from level-ups, 1 from GrandMastery, 1 from off-hand and bonus 1 from off-hand (Kundane, Belm), 1/2 from gauntlets, brings us to 5, which is the hard cap. Kensage would be stuck at 4 1/2.

    Of course if you don't dual-wield this is a moot point, but I just wanted to clarify it.

    F/M Multi would obviously end up at the cap without the Gauntlets, due to reaching Fighter 13.
    nano
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited October 2013
    Please keep in mind that you don't have to give the gauntlets to a Kensai->Mage to get their benefit. Since they're unique you can give them to another party member with similar APR/THAC0 and retain most if not all of their benefit for overall performance. They only become a factor if you have no other party member that can use them, which shouldn't be a majority of cases by any stretch.

    Without the gauntlets, you're facing +2 damage/hit from Rage against a Kensai's innate +3 (dual at 9)/+4 (dual at 13). There's also the post-rage penalties, which don't always kick into effect on lower difficulties (short fights) but can become quite apparent at higher ones.
    Eudaemonium
  • doomdoomdoomdoomdoomdoom Member Posts: 89
    edited October 2013
    @Lord_Tansheron Even if you give the extraordinary gauntlets to someone else, there's still at least one pair of gauntlets of expertise which are just as good in terms of thac0/damage.
    And if you maintain that those are better used on other party members as well, then that probably means you have plenty of fighters in your party already, and this pissing contest between the two kits regarding physical damage is largely irrelevant, which means berserker's survival advantages come even further ahead.

    Fact is, you can get substantial benefits from the gauntlet/helmet slots even if you're such a nice guy who gives all the best items to NPCs; including early and easy crit immunity even with the most mundane of helmets. Even if it doesn't matter much eventually when you get ample supply of stoneskins, pfmws and such, getting to that eventuality takes time and can be painful for kensai.
    Same for the berserker's easy and always available "I cannot be controlled" button. Of course there are counters to all of these fears, stuns, confusions, level drains, etc. eventually (again, eventually being key word here), although even then it takes extensive prior knowledge of every encounter and micromanagement in order to prep, or dumb luck to survive.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211

    it takes extensive prior knowledge of every encounter and micromanagement in order to prep

    That is pretty much a given. This game is over ten years old, extensive metaknowledge is very easy to come by. If you don't have that knowledge, then you're probably not an experienced player, in which case this whole discussion is of little interest to you and you should be getting used to the game mechanics first anyway.

    The gauntlets are certainly a consideration for some parties, but do keep in mind that optimal setups do, in fact, include a *lot* of fighters; I'd even go as far as to say that every single member is a fighter-type there, at least in part. It's not hard to find a home for the *two* gauntlets in the game that add damage. If you really don't have anyone else who can make use of them, then by all means, roll a Berserker.

    As for helms, it's a very minor point; you can pretty much grab the ioun stone from the graveyard district the second you step out of the Promenade (BG1 is a whole different matter btw, class balance and relative powers differ from BG2). There are very few useful helms in BG2 anyway, though admittedly Vhailor's Helm is quite the thing. The same thing applies to helm as to gauntlets: if you really can't find someone else to use them, you may want to roll a Berserker after all - but that's not a very common case, and certainly not optimal.

    I think this illustrates well my larger point: there are preciously few absolutes in this type of discussion. That's why I argue from a baseline - it's the starting point of your individual decision-making process, not the end result. You should never take what I say for gospel, you should only ever take it as inspiration. Always make your decisions based on *your* individual setup, and *your* individual needs. In a theoretically optimized vacuum, Kensai->Mage may be the best; but it is not hard to construct a personalized scenario where this is, in fact, not the case. Always take the underlying arguments into account, i.e. *why* a Kensai->Mage is so good, and then apply those to your variables. The result may surprise you!
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