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Ironing out my Sorcerer build

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  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    For starters, I don't have SCS. I don't even know what it is.
    nano said:

    @Kneller. Good thing you're not the one fighting the sword spider :p
    Try webbing your enemies first. The spider can walk through webs.

    RRR is the lowest level spell that can take down Spell Trap. You don't always want to blow a 9th level Spellstrike on it and most of the time it's as good as Pierce Shield. KWW is like 3 Secret Words, so it's used for just bashing through protections. It's a different role, but not as useful as RRR in my opinion. Which spell breakers you want depends on your strategy vs mages.

    Does this mean that enemies suck against sword spiders? That's really odd since they're weak. I mean, they're fast, but it doesn't take much damage to wreck them. I think I've taken them out with a couple maxed magic missile spells.

    As for my strategy vs. mages, I don't really have one. I have to admit, I'm pretty lazy when it comes to reading up on spell protections. Abjuration makes me feel like I'm filing my taxes. I just figured throwing a breach and one of the higher level debuffs will soften mages up enough to smack them around. This is probably not a well-thought out strategy. Maybe I should run a party of Barbarians.

    @Mule72 & @meagloth I skipped sleep and identify because sleep becomes obsolete as early as BG2. As for Identify, I'll have two other mages for BG1, and it won't take long to get the glasses of identify for BG2. I think you're right about protection from evil being kind of a waste. I will have a cleric around the time prot 10' becomes available.

    @mackos you make a good case for shield, but spook is pretty handy with it's up to -6 to saves. That makes it guaranteed to work at least 30% of the time, which is not bad for a level 1 spell. Chaos is a good suggestion. I don't like the idea of sending my sorcerer into the thick just to blow off a fireball. But, what makes Chaos better than Confusion? Regarding Horror, I find more than enough wands of fear in this game. I never even use them up before the end.

    So, here's a new list with suggestions implemented. Once again, they are listed in the order that I would take them. Let's discuss.

    L1
    Friends
    Spook
    Chromatic Orb
    Magic Missile
    Identify*

    *I don't really need identify considering I'll have other spellcasters and the glasses of identify in BG2, but I haven't really seen a strong case for another L1 spell. Feel free to convince me of a replacement.

    L2
    Invisibility*
    Web
    Melf's Acid Arrow
    Mirror Image
    Glitterdust

    *I know there are potions and whatnot, but I really use this spell a ton. In BG1, there actually aren't enough potions.

    L3
    Remove Magic (Vicky will have Dispel)
    Skull Trap
    Slow
    Haste
    Flame Arrow

    L4
    Stoneskin
    Greater Malison
    Polymorph Self
    Ice Storm
    Minor Sequencer*

    *Is minor sequencer all that special? What's the best I'm going to get out of it? A double magic missile or double acid arrow?

    L5
    Breach
    Lower Resistance
    Chaos
    Spell Immunity
    Hold Monster

    L6
    Improved Haste
    Protection from Magical Weapons
    True Sight*
    Chain Lightning*
    Death Spell*

    *Many of you have made a strong case against these three spells, but I don't know what I would put in their place.

    L7
    Limited Wish (one of my favorite spells)
    Ruby Ray of Reversal
    Project Image
    Mordenkainen's Sword
    Finger of Death

    L8
    Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
    Pierce Shield
    Summon Fiend
    Spell Trigger
    Power Word: Blind

    L9
    Time Stop
    Wish
    Spellstrike
    Chain Contingency
    Shapechange
  • mackosmackos Member Posts: 188
    @Kneller confusion has -2 saving throw penalty and chaos -4. That's it
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    "*Is minor sequencer all that special? What's the best I'm going to get out of it? A double magic missile or double acid arrow?"

    The one I'd be inclined to use is a double Web. You'll have to actually have the enemy in sight but its still a nice option to have available.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @Kneller. SCS is just an AI mod that makes enemies smarter. It has options to increase the difficulty or rebalance some things. It's not a big deal if you don't have it though I enjoy it myself. Still, enemies are pretty dumb even with the mod. Can't be helped really.

    Webbed enemies suck against sword spiders. I agree the spiders are very weak defensively, so the idea is not to let them get hit. They're useful because you can throw around web without touching them, while many other summons will get tangled up.

    Since you're not using SCS, Breach penetrates just about anything so.. mm.. you probably don't need either of the protection removals. On the other hand, liches can't be Breached so you're going to have to going to have to find some other way of bringing down PfMW. I would just use Dispel (I think only SCS enemies run SI:Abjuration to block that) or time it out, it only lasts 4 rounds. I don't know how attached you are to your party composition, but an Inquisitor will make abjuration a piece of cake. Dispel until you can hit them, then go to town.

    Hmm, can someone confirm if liches can be dispelled in the default game? I thought they could but I've actually never played unmodded.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    edited November 2013
    I think you'll find your sorcerer quite underwhelming in BGEE with these spell lists. At max level in BGEE you'll have these spells:

    L1
    Friends
    Spook
    Chromatic Orb
    Magic Missile
    Identify*

    L2
    Invisibility*
    Web
    Melf's Acid Arrow
    Mirror Image

    L3
    Remove Magic (Vicky will have Dispel)
    Skull Trap
    Slow

    L4
    Stoneskin
    Greater Malison

    Until about level 5 you'll be doing pretty much nothing, I think. I'd consider swapping Identify and Invis for something that's useful in the first game. And pick the replacement of Identify sooner of course.
  • SlandeSlande Member Posts: 23
    edited November 2013
    Kneller said:



    *Is minor sequencer all that special? What's the best I'm going to get out of it? A double magic missile or double acid arrow?

    I like using a sequencer with either 2x Glitterdust or Glitterdust + Horror. It works pretty far into BG2 as long as you throw in a GM first to lower their saves beforehand.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I think I'll address some of your other concerns too.

    Identify*
    *I don't really need identify considering I'll have other spellcasters and the glasses of identify in BG2, but I haven't really seen a strong case for another L1 spell. Feel free to convince me of a replacement.


    I like Identify. Just about anything you pick will be mostly for convenience. You can take Sleep to save some money early on, Blind is pretty decent, Shield is okay as well.

    Invisibility*
    *I know there are potions and whatnot, but I really use this spell a ton. In BG1, there actually aren't enough potions.

    Invisibility is a very strong effect and I won't discourage you from taking it if you cast it often. You can put it in a sequencer for a quick escape. I use Invisibility 10' for my out of combat needs and potions when someone gets into trouble in a fight.

    Minor Sequencer*
    *Is minor sequencer all that special? What's the best I'm going to get out of it? A double magic missile or double acid arrow?

    I don't think it's worth using for damage. But double Web is excellent, Mirror Image + Blur makes you tanky very quickly, Mirror Image + Invisibility will get you out of trouble, you can put Strength in it for use while polymorphed, etc.

    True Sight*
    Chain Lightning*
    Death Spell*
    *Many of you have made a strong case against these three spells, but I don't know what I would put in their place.

    Contingency is helpful. Death Fog can be good. Globe of Invulnerability will protect you from (some of) your area spells. Mislead is my personal favorite and an incredible defensive spell depending on how much you want to (ab)use it. Those choices aren't bad though. Except for Chain Lightning which I still think sucks. If you're worried about killing yourself you can use Limited Wish>"make my party invulnerable" and then go nuts with Skull Trap.
  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    At level 1: Take Blind instead of Friends.

    Shop price discounts cap at 20 CHA. There are some NPC reaction adjustment benefits for going past that, but I'm not aware of any in-game situation that can be handled differently at 25 Charisma than at 19 - except perhaps offsetting some of the negative effects of having an extremely low reputation - which is rarely a problem even with evil parties. I highly recommend simply your Sorcerer with a high natural Charisma. For example, if you go with 10 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Con, 12 Int, 15 Wis, and 18 Cha - that'll cost 89 points, which is very much obtainable in 10-15 minutes of stat-rolling. The 3 WIS tomes in BG:EE will get you up to 18, the critical threshold for Wishes in BG2.

    So, if you build properly, you don't really lose anything by giving up Friends.

    Blind, on the other hand, is a powerful save-or-else disable that probably should be a much higher level spell, power-wise. Almost no enemies in the entire BG series have immunity to blindness effects. Blind has an incredible 10-TURN (not round) duration, and as long as all your characters have some ranged damage option, a blinded enemy will just stand / wander around idly while you pincushion it full of arrows/spells/bolts etc. IMO Blind is tied with Magic Missile for best level 1 spell. At the early levels it is vastly superior to Spook - the duration of the effect is worth far more than the small saving throw penalty Spook offers at low levels.

    If you're not taking Sleep, Blind will probably be your most-used spell in BG:EE until level 6.

    Level 4: Ice Storm has seriously horrible damage. Never take it. Minor Sequencer can be good but I personally rarely take it on Sorcerers. Take a look at Improved Invisibility, Emotion, Farsight, and Teleport Field. Emotion is a very nice save-or-else (I prefer it to the confusion/chaos line, personally). Farsight allows for strong tactical use of summoned creatures and (later) project image. (particularly effective for sending hordes of hasted skeleton warriors at your enemies) Teleport Field is incredible - no save, ignores SR - but can destroy your own party's melee options just as effectively as removes your enemies, so it takes some practice to use effectively. If you have several characters who have good ranged (or spellcasting) options though, it can be ridiculously good. Improved Invisibility offers all sorts of nastiness, especially in combination with Spell Immunity where can border on ridiculous cheese.

    Level 5: Hold Monster? No No No. I'm not a huge fan of Chaos either - I like a little more predictability out of my enemies after I hit them with a save-or-else. The saving throw modifier IS nice, but enemies in large environments can sometimes wander into areas filled with other nasty creatures, and that gets annoying. Spell Shield can be a good pick if you're a really into the high-level Arcane duels. Consider Sunfire, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold or Animate Dead. If you pick Animate Dead, it should be your 4th 5th level spell - right at level 15. The Skeleton warriors are REALLY nice.

    Level 6: PfMW and Imp. Haste are must-haves, good picks.

    as @nano noted, Globe of Invulnerability has a lot of interesting tactical applications - it protects you from your own AoE spells. While "only spells of level 4 and below" may not sound all that great, it does cover a host of annoying effects from both the divine and arcane schools. Death Fog and Death Spell are both worth considering (though I wouldn't get both!). True Seeing is always nice, since it's virtually a necessity for any high-level caster battle - but you may have multiple other party members who have access to it. You can also take Pierce Magic here for another spell protection removal option if nothing else really catches your eye.

    Level 7: Good list.

    Level 8: Ditch Summon Fiend. Your clerics have access to Pit Fiends by now, let them do the Demon-summoning. Take Protection from Energy and round out your defenses instead. I probably wouldn't take Pierce Shield here either, simply because you're taking Ruby Ray and Spellstrike at levels 7 and 9 - you've already got plenty of high level spell protection removers. You also don't get your last 8th level spell until very late in the game, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. (take pierce shield last if ever).

    Level 9: You only get 4 spells under the ToB xp cap. I'm personally a huge Shapechange fan, but you'll probably want to go with Time Stop / Wish / Spellstrike / CC.
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    btw, what weapon should I pick for the first pip? I'm tempted to go with daggers as it will cover both melee and ranged, but keeping a supply of throwing daggers around is going to be heavy. Otherwise, I'll be limited to either melee (staff) or ranged (sling, dart).
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 937
    @Kneller Alright, let's discuss.

    I have had good results with both Blindness to shut down archers/spellcasters and Grease as some of the only level 1 crowd control available (and it potentially still functions later unlike Sleep). If you want to make an area utterly unpalatable to enemy movement, Grease is yet another spell you can toss into the mix from the lowly 1st level spells.

    I prefer Horror to Glitterdust in BG1. I can't weigh in on the effects in BG2. Horror still has functionality even in late-game fights in BG1.

    Skull Trap can literally blow up in your face, I prefer Melf's Minute Meteors or Fireball.

    You can do better than Ice Storm. How about Spider Spawn? While sword spiders are a little squishy, you will find that phase spiders are good against some annoying enemies that like to teleport, like Davaeorn (or Baeloth in The Black Pits). The poison is quite relevant to spell interruption. When you get to sword spiders, the high attacks-per-round combined with web walking makes them pretty spiffy. I've wanted to summon sword spiders ever since I first saw them in BG1.

    As others have suggested, Cloudkill or Animate Dead are better than Hold Monster. Animate Dead in particular is a useful tool to keep in the box.

    My jester's top level of spells (unless they fix it with a patch) are 6th level, and she is looking forward greatly to Contingency at her upper tier. The immediacy of the effect should not be snubbed, it effectively sidesteps casting time. 9th circle spells are a long way off XP-wise after 6th level spells, so Chain Contingency won't arrive for a while. Another one you may consider if you have a sense of humor is Tenser's Transformation, apparently the temporary HP can heal the caster so you could use it as a cheeky means of healing in a solo game. Invisible Stalker could replace Chain Lightning as a "damage" spell (you may see that I enjoy summoning creatures), while Summon Nishruu is quite strong against spellcasters.

    No issues with your level 7 spells.

    Make room for Maze, it is the height of pinpoint crowd control (though I could understand the range being a deal-breaker). Simulacrum looks like too much fun not to use. Much as I enjoy summoning things, I might just drop Summon Fiend here.

    No issues with your level 9 spells.



    Aside: you should take what I say with a grain of salt. I am a veteran DM and I have a good head for game theory, but I have NOT played BG2 and therefore my knowledge is theoretical.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I'm not one to judge, but I can't help thinking that sorcerers who pick Grease are doing so for the, ah, "non-combat uses".
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Whatever glides your slide.
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    edited November 2013
    @kneller

    I don't think you need Ruby Ray and Pierce Shield and Spellstrike, they are all essentially doing the same thing. Pierce Shield is certainly redundant since if you want to lower the magic resistance of an enemy, Pierce Shield is a totally inefficient way of doing it, you want a Spell Trigger with Lower Resistance.

    You only get 4 level 9 spells at exp cap, I'd personnally cut Spellstrike but if you really like it then cut Shapechange.

    Improved Invisibility is one of the best level 4 spells, it's half the reason for picking Spell Immunity. Cut Polymorph or Ice Storm.

    Sunfire is one of your best damaging spells and it ignores magic resistance, cut Hold Monster or Chaos.

    Simulacrum deserves a mention at level 8. It might not be as good as Project Image, but it's certainly better than Summon Fiend or Power Word Blind.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    I probably wouldn't go with Cloudkill but its your call. If you use the sell and buyback method you can get a wand of cloudkill pretty easily in BG2 and its effects last longer than the spell (1d4 turns vs 1 turn for the spell). For 6000 - 7000 (depends on your reputation and charisma) you can get a wand of it with 50 charges on it.
  • SedSed Member Posts: 790
    @ryuken87
    Sunfire no longer ignores magic resistance as of Patch 1.2
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited November 2013
    ryuken87 said:


    Improved Invisibility is one of the best level 4 spells, it's half the reason for picking Spell Immunity. Cut Polymorph or Ice Storm.

    Its also something you can get from a variety of sources. Heck, you could just have Imoen cast Mass Invisibility and give it to every party member. I'd say its worth passing on in favour of polymorph self.

    To the OP take Minor Sequencer before Ice Storm.
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    @Sed Thanks, that's good to know.

    @Elminster Forgive if I miss something but the alternative sources of Imp Invis are the Ring of Air Control (I'd rather use rings that give spell slots), Ring of Improved Invisibility (ditto and very late game), Ring of Gaxx (ditto, and I like this on a warrior for all the other benefits it provides) and Improved Cloak of Protection+2 (very late game, rather use it on a warrior).

    And not that Mass Invisibility is bad but if you're using Imoen for it then you're halfway through the game and you're using a level 7 spell to do the job of a level 4 spell (and Imoen won't have too many higher level spell slots at this time).

    I agree on using a wand in place of Cloudkill however.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    ryuken87 said:

    @Sed Thanks, that's good to know.

    @Elminster Forgive if I miss something but the alternative sources of Imp Invis are the Ring of Air Control (I'd rather use rings that give spell slots), Ring of Improved Invisibility (ditto and very late game), Ring of Gaxx (ditto, and I like this on a warrior for all the other benefits it provides) and Improved Cloak of Protection+2 (very late game, rather use it on a warrior).

    And not that Mass Invisibility is bad but if you're using Imoen for it then you're halfway through the game and you're using a level 7 spell to do the job of a level 4 spell (and Imoen won't have too many higher level spell slots at this time).

    I agree on using a wand in place of Cloudkill however.

    Actually I'd say you'd be using a level 7 spell to do the job of 6 level 4 spells. But I just think there are better spells that you can be picking over improved invisibility considering you already have mirror images, stoneskin, and regular invisibility. I'd take Polymorph: Self, Emotion: Hopelessness, or even Teleport Field before I'd take Improved Invisibility. Besides I think as a sorceror already you aren't lacking in the ability to cast spells repeatedly and until you get access to either Time Stop or Improved Alacrity I just don't see losing out on the benefits of the Ring of Acuity to be that big of a deal.
  • AlsnAlsn Member Posts: 97
    I saw a few comments dissing Chaos as a 5th level spell and I'd just like to make a shout-out for this spell over it's main competition(emotion). Something to keep in mind is that while the confusion effect isn't always useful against warrior type enemies(they might keep attacking you) it completely prevents spellcasting outside of contingencies. Which means that for all intents and purposes, when used against a spell caster Chaos is a complete disable on par with paralysis except that you don't score automatic hits.

    What's more, many many more monsters are immune to unconsciousness or, in particular in the case of spellcasters, immune to 4th level spells and below(Globe of invulnerability). This basically means that Chaos is much much more useful against for example cowled wizards, Yuan-ti mages, etc. than emotion ever will be. Not to mention the very juicy -4 save penalty.

    So there, don't dis Chaos! :)

    Also, like a few people have pointed out. The wish spells have absolutely nothing to do with INT. They are purely WIS-based and 18 is the highest that you get any benefit out of.

    In essence, the sorcerer is the class that has the least use for any of the primary stats. You could play a 9 9 9 9 9 9 sorcerer and assuming the same spell picks, there would be pretty much no difference except for 2 hp per level, 4 AC, carrying capacity and the WIS requirements for wish spells. In fact, on a sorcerer, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss strength. With the BG1 tome, you get a hefty THAC0 bonus which means that the dispel on hit feature of the staff of the magi isn't as unusable as one might think!
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