My windows in the inventory etc. have all wacked out thac0, In addition in the box it is showing calculations for my attacks that I can make no sense of.
I have a Gnome illusionist/theif with a +1 repeating light crossbow and 18 dex.... -1 should be the penalty for being unproficient right??? I was getting a -6 to my attack roles...this makes NO SENSE. and now I am getting collective -2 to my attack roles....WHAT??????
With my dex bonus alone I should be getting a BONUS to attack....
I have further tested what it reads in the box for actual rolls. I have an half-orc fighter cleric.. 1 proficiency in flails/morningstars, 0 in warhamers. I picked up a +2 warhammer. I have a regular morningstar. The attack bonus for both is exactly the same. The warhammer should have +2 for the weapon ehancement and -1 for being unproficient. THe morningstar should be +/- 0, no enhancement and 1 proficiency point...
but its saying the same plus (+7, strength)....where is the collective +1 for the warhammer? IN the display window it says nothing about AC of target being attacked and gives no indication of effective/calculated Thac0...so there is absolutely no way of knowing what Thac0 it is giving you with a given weapon (since the display boxes on character page and inventory are completley bugged) and the display box gives you nothing....
Very confusing, its basically shooting in the dark. I know Ad&D rules, I know the old BG (before EE) so I can figure out what the values SHOULD be for any given character/weapon based on my knowledge...but I have no reliable indicator or validation of what is actually happening in BGEE. ANd the +/- values displayed on the rolls in the dailogue box for missle weapons is completely bonkers. Its +2 one minute, then +3, then -4, then -6....I went several battles completely unable to hit anything...and then the next battle I just shoot the bugger down in a few seconds... Really really confusing and frustrating. This game/product might be interesting to people who are fans of BG for many years...but consider this carefully~
Anybody new to this game (even if they love RPGs) will have absolutely no clue how combat works, how weapons work, how weapon proficiencies work, how weapons work etc. Nothing in the game gives any consistant accurate or reliable information about weapons WHATSOEVER.
Penalties to THAC0 should be shown as + in the THAC0 window where bonuses need to be shown as -
This is all twisted around backward and inaccurate. and confusing.
It should be completely redesigned
BASE THACO STAT BONUS (dex) (strength) (a plus number applied to the ROLE) other bonuses (weapon,proficiency,kit etc.)
All the bonuses should be added to the roll in the window. Nobody knows what their friggin Thac0 is really or how the heck that works, and they don't know the AC of the beast they are attacking...its a crappy mechanic but it is what it is. (newer versions of D&D rules POST Thac0 are much better)
What they can do is leave the Thac0 there as the BASE, modified by class...and people have to learn/understand that as they level Thac0 gets lower and lower Thac0 means you need to roll less to hit higher ACs.
For all the bonuses though, they should keep them COMPLETELY seperate from Thac0, add them ALL as bonuses to the roll, ALL OF THEM. This, ESPECIALLY for new people to the game will be very very easy to understand. Whatever bonus they get, from spell, stat, item, kit etc. is adding to their roll, they can see their roll number get bigger and bigger. Easy. Simple. Straight forward...also most bonuses are already worded in the game +1 attack etc. So instead of reinterpreting this as -1 thac0, complicating and confusing it...just add it as a +1 like it says. or +whatever.
Also for the rolls they could even parse it out in the display box and have it clarify~
roll 16+3(dex)+3(kit)+2(weapon)+1(spell)=25 etc. and give the final number Also on the rolls it might be good to have it list Thac0 in the dialogue box too. example
(Thac0 18) roll 7+7(str)+2(kit)+2(proficiency)+2(weapon)+2(spells)=22
and stuff like that.
If someone can read their thac0, reads a brief description of it in manual, then they can understand the end result of their roll what AC it was good enough to hit/not hit. above example -4
Hear hear! Totally agree @Shiffd. Thac0 is a static number. Bonuses to hit are BONUSES to the TO HIT ROLL! Not whacked out inverse modifiers.
But what about armour bonuses eh?
For AC, I think we are stuck with the bonuses applied and penalties. Obviously in later versions of D&D they have fixed this. There is no Thac0 and AC works the higher the better. So attack gets better AC gets better...no inverse madness...for BG though...We are stuck...
All AC bonuses lower the number (listed as +, applied as - to the actual AC number) Thac0 static number that only lowers with level All attack bonuses should be applied to the roll. For a video game the calculation is simple (instant) so this is easiest.
In the old pen and paper world it actually did make sense to lower the TH number...actually we always (when I was DMing) just calculated an adjusted thac0 and then added an inverse of the AC (which was double silly if you think about how AC was listed as an inverse number but it actually impacted the TH number inverse to its value...so it always made more sense to have it as a non-inverse...) For example if a player had like 18 Thac0, +3 TH from str. and +1 from weapon, effective Thac0 was 14, if target AC as 5, then you subract 5 from Thac0 to get TH number of 9, and the player is rolling to get 9 or better to hit...man in the old days it was ultra stupid LOL.
Anyway they rolled out an update today so this thread is gonners/done/fixed etc. So they should just move it to fixed.....
I saw awhile ago that someone had made a BG mod for NWII that made NWII engine work for BG...I have half a mind to just play that but I question if the charm etc. is still there.
as broken as some of the mechanics are the reason BG survived to this point of becoming BGEE project is because of the charm of its actual content I think. And stuff...
Comments
In addition in the box it is showing calculations for my attacks that I can make no sense of.
I have a Gnome illusionist/theif with a +1 repeating light crossbow and 18 dex....
-1 should be the penalty for being unproficient right??? I was getting a -6 to my attack roles...this makes NO SENSE. and now I am getting collective -2 to my attack roles....WHAT??????
With my dex bonus alone I should be getting a BONUS to attack....
1 proficiency in flails/morningstars, 0 in warhamers.
I picked up a +2 warhammer. I have a regular morningstar.
The attack bonus for both is exactly the same. The warhammer should have +2 for the weapon ehancement and -1 for being unproficient. THe morningstar should be +/- 0, no enhancement and 1 proficiency point...
but its saying the same plus (+7, strength)....where is the collective +1 for the warhammer?
IN the display window it says nothing about AC of target being attacked and gives no indication of effective/calculated Thac0...so there is absolutely no way of knowing what Thac0 it is giving you with a given weapon (since the display boxes on character page and inventory are completley bugged) and the display box gives you nothing....
Very confusing, its basically shooting in the dark. I know Ad&D rules, I know the old BG (before EE) so I can figure out what the values SHOULD be for any given character/weapon based on my knowledge...but I have no reliable indicator or validation of what is actually happening in BGEE. ANd the +/- values displayed on the rolls in the dailogue box for missle weapons is completely bonkers. Its +2 one minute, then +3, then -4, then -6....I went several battles completely unable to hit anything...and then the next battle I just shoot the bugger down in a few seconds...
Really really confusing and frustrating.
This game/product might be interesting to people who are fans of BG for many years...but consider this carefully~
Anybody new to this game (even if they love RPGs) will have absolutely no clue how combat works, how weapons work, how weapon proficiencies work, how weapons work etc. Nothing in the game gives any consistant accurate or reliable information about weapons WHATSOEVER.
THis is completely unacceptable.
It should be completely redesigned
BASE THACO
STAT BONUS (dex) (strength) (a plus number applied to the ROLE)
other bonuses (weapon,proficiency,kit etc.)
All the bonuses should be added to the roll in the window. Nobody knows what their friggin Thac0 is really or how the heck that works, and they don't know the AC of the beast they are attacking...its a crappy mechanic but it is what it is. (newer versions of D&D rules POST Thac0 are much better)
What they can do is leave the Thac0 there as the BASE, modified by class...and people have to learn/understand that as they level Thac0 gets lower and lower Thac0 means you need to roll less to hit higher ACs.
For all the bonuses though, they should keep them COMPLETELY seperate from Thac0, add them ALL as bonuses to the roll, ALL OF THEM. This, ESPECIALLY for new people to the game will be very very easy to understand. Whatever bonus they get, from spell, stat, item, kit etc. is adding to their roll, they can see their roll number get bigger and bigger. Easy. Simple. Straight forward...also most bonuses are already worded in the game +1 attack etc. So instead of reinterpreting this as -1 thac0, complicating and confusing it...just add it as a +1 like it says. or +whatever.
Also for the rolls they could even parse it out in the display box and have it clarify~
roll 16+3(dex)+3(kit)+2(weapon)+1(spell)=25 etc. and give the final number
Also on the rolls it might be good to have it list Thac0 in the dialogue box too.
example
(Thac0 18) roll 7+7(str)+2(kit)+2(proficiency)+2(weapon)+2(spells)=22
and stuff like that.
If someone can read their thac0, reads a brief description of it in manual, then they can understand the end result of their roll what AC it was good enough to hit/not hit. above example -4
But what about armour bonuses eh?
All AC bonuses lower the number (listed as +, applied as - to the actual AC number)
Thac0 static number that only lowers with level
All attack bonuses should be applied to the roll.
For a video game the calculation is simple (instant) so this is easiest.
In the old pen and paper world it actually did make sense to lower the TH number...actually we always (when I was DMing) just calculated an adjusted thac0 and then added an inverse of the AC (which was double silly if you think about how AC was listed as an inverse number but it actually impacted the TH number inverse to its value...so it always made more sense to have it as a non-inverse...) For example if a player had like 18 Thac0, +3 TH from str. and +1 from weapon, effective Thac0 was 14, if target AC as 5, then you subract 5 from Thac0 to get TH number of 9, and the player is rolling to get 9 or better to hit...man in the old days it was ultra stupid LOL.
Anyway they rolled out an update today so this thread is gonners/done/fixed etc. So they should just move it to fixed.....
I saw awhile ago that someone had made a BG mod for NWII that made NWII engine work for BG...I have half a mind to just play that but I question if the charm etc. is still there.
as broken as some of the mechanics are the reason BG survived to this point of becoming BGEE project is because of the charm of its actual content I think. And stuff...