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Ranger stealth skill not consistent with manual

KeithSKeithS Member Posts: 623
edited August 2012 in Fixed
The manual states that the Ranger stealth skill should be 21% at Level 2.

--

Modified SKLLRNG.2DA with the proper value.

(Originally found and fixed in DudlyFix)
Post edited by Bhryaen on

Comments

  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,746
    Same with this. On Build 0607 it still shows 20% at level 2.
  • KeithSKeithS Member Posts: 623
    @ScottBrooks Hey Scott, can you take a quick look at this one.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    @KeithS - Do the skillrac and skilldex 2das need to be modified as well? The manual I have implies that stealth/hideinshadows/movesilently all have the same bonus for race and dex, but that doesn't appear to be the case with the 2das that we are using which is bumping the stealth skill higher than it should (as it is taking all its bonuses from move silently).
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    @SethDavis @KeithS @ScottBrooks

    These are from the AD&D Player's Handbook, for reference:

    SKILL DWARF ELF GNOME HALF-ELF HALFLING Move silently - +5% +5% - +10% Hide in Shadows - +10% +5% - +15%

    DEXTERITY MOVE SIL. HIDE IN S. 9 -20% -10% 10 -15% -5% 11 -10% - 12 -5% - 13-15 - - 16 - - 17 +5% +5% 18 +10% +10% 19 +15% +15%
    SethDavisDinsdalePiranha
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    @AndreaColombo - Ah, Thanks.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    @SethDavis - Should you need any further information from the Player's Handbook, ask away. I always keep it handy.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    @AndreaColombo - Will do :)

    Would you happen to know if the interplay bg1 manual should supersede the AD&D handbook? The conflict is on page 138 of the pdf I downloaded from here - http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG/index_tips.php
    Solobear
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    @SethDavis - Several aspects of vanilla BG1 were house ruled, which means the devs had taken liberties with P&P AD&D rules and performed either light or heavy adaptations. If your goal is to be true to vanilla BG1, then yes: the BG1 manual supersedes the AD&D Player's Handbook.

    In the case of Move Silently / Hide in Shadows, however, the difference between the BG1 engine and the BG2 engine also comes into play. In vanilla BG1, both abilities were grouped into a single thieving skill called "Stealth", to which the table on page 138 of the BG1 manual was applied. In BG2, both abilities received their own separate thieving skill entry. The bonuses were most likely house ruled, but you should look for them on the BG2 manual.

    Personally, I am a rules lawyer and would like every rule in BG:EE to be as faithful as possible to P&P. In this regard, I would treat any house rule as something to be fixed. But this, of course, is just me (and there are mods out there to achieve this anyway) :-)
    SethDavis
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    Well, that sounds like an executive level decision to me. Thanks.
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    I'm pretty sure racial/ability modifiers should modify the base class dependent numbers.
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    edited July 2012
    @SethDavis, @KeithS
    What is skillrng.2da? Is it an unused duplicate? I'm afraid not. Baldur.exe contains the string 'skillrng' and doesn't contain the string 'skllrng'. I think the reports about this being unfixed come from that.
    SethDavislolien
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    edited July 2012
    @Avenger_teambg - Ah, that would do it :D

    I'll grab this quick then

    [EDIT] The typo has been fixed
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    Confirmed Fixed... I think... at least for the OP.

    SKILLRNG.2DA has been modified from vBG which had 20 as the STEALTH value to now 21 as the MOVE_SILENTLY value. Actually the vBG2 SKILLRNG.2DA was also wrong- had a 20- though it shares the MOVE_SILENTLY modifier designation.

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Bhryaen
    Is this one actually visible in the game?
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @Tanthalas
    You mean for testing purposes? Hmm... not sure how to test for it other than use an item that gives 79% move silently and 100% hide in shadows and see if 1 in 100 tries you fail to stealth. heh
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Bhryaen
    I mean, does this fix show in the character records? Because my level 1 Human Ranger with 13 Dex starts with 22% Stealth already.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    Where the heck did that extra 1% stealth come from? Maybe that's why it was originally 21- to compensate for whatever engine issue may be happening...
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Bhryaen

    The thing is that the BG2 manual doesn't list the Stealth stat for Rangers (or at least I couldn't find it), it only has a table showing Move Silently and Hide in Shadows separately and I have no idea how those two stats interact to produce a Stealth stat.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    Stealth only existed in vBG1, and grouped Hide in Shadows and Move Silently together. The two were split and assigned their own thieving ability status in BG2. I have no idea how @SethDavis decided to go about this, though my best guess is that he checked ingame bonuses against the BG2 manual and made them consistent.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited August 2012
    @AndreaColombo @Tanthalas
    Do you have the BG2 manual to verify the ranger scores as simply a combo of HiS and MS? Actually @Lunever seemed to say it was in this post:
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/11054/#Comment_11054

    This still doesn't answer where that 1% is coming from though or whether it's testable. Actually it is testable if I just do some 2DA meddling and check if it affects in-game scores... brb...
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    Unfortunately, I do not have my BG2 manual handy... :-(
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    You can easily google the manual.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited August 2012
    Checked with a human Dex 13 ranger:

    Present 2DA:
                MOVE_SILENTLY  RECORD SCORE
    1 15 22
    2 21 28
    3 27 34
    4 33 40
    5 40 47
    6 47
    So the 22 is showing up at Lvl 1, not Lvl 2. It's also doing lots of oddball calculations it shouldn't be. Just to test further I tweaked the 2DA to see what would happen:
                MOVE_SILENTLY  RECORD SCORE
    1 0 22
    2 10 17
    3 20 27
    4 30 37
    5 40 47
    6 47
    Definitely something funky going on there... And even with the 2DA set for 0% stealth at Lvl 1, it grants the same 22.
    AndreaColombo
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I imagine that Hide in Shadows should also affect the Ranger's Stealth, but apparently what the game is doing is basically use the Move Silently score +7.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited August 2012
    [SNIP]
    Post edited by Bhryaen on
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Confirmed Fixed using NI and checking the 2DA file.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    @Tanthalas, @Bhryaen
    I came across this repeatedly in my Minsc/Kivan testing over in the joinable NPC bug thread, and we can close this as Not An Issue.

    The ranger stealth score is simply an average of their move silently and hide in shadows score, but they still receive their racial and dexterity bonuses. Essentially, they get their base score from skillrng.2da (despite the column name, this score goes to both HiS and MS) and then their racial bonus (skillrac.2da) and their dexterity bonus (skilldex.2da). With the correction of the level 2 score, skillrng.2da now matches the BG2 manual. (I can confirm that rangers get the correct initial values for HiS and MS from character creation and get their correct values upon further level ups.)

    @Bhryaen's test above is what the scores should be when you figure in a human's +10% move silently and +5% hide in shadows. At level one, a human ranger with 13 dexterity has 25 move silently (15 base +10 race + 0 dex) and 20 hide (15 base + 5 race + 0 dex), which averages to 22.5, or 22 rounded down. At level 2 we have 31 move silently (21 base + 10 race + 0 dex) and 26 hide (21 base + 5 race + 0 dex), averaging to 28.5 or 28 rounded down.

    Since skillrng.2da is applied only at level up and not dynamically, it would explain how in the later tests the level 1 character didn't reflect the changes but the other levels did.
    TanthalasBhryaen
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited August 2012
    @AndreaColombo - You seem like the type of person who doesn't play Monopoly with "money in the middle".

    ... which is totally right on.
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