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The Definitive "Community Feedback on Touch Screen Interface Suggestions" Thread.

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Comments

  • famousringofamousringo Member Posts: 28
    edited November 2013
    I wanted to address my other key interface issue with a separate comment. I've got a beef with exits that aren't highlighted. Especially doors which are hidden behind buildings, which really aren't obvious, but also less hidden sewer grates and perhaps even more obvious entrances that just don't happen to have a glowing purple door to open.

    The "smart radius" feature made it easy to find such exits if you knew to go looking for them, but for new players in particular, it isn't obvious that the sewer grate is an entrance or that a building has a door behind it. It will get worse in BG2 with several background objects that don't highlight but are important to interact with, such as the wand traps in the first dungeon.

    Since there's no cursor hover to reveal such objects on a tablet, I'd like all important interactive objects to highlight when the highlight button is pressed, not just doors and chests. While I realize this is new functionality and therefore harder to implement, I think PC users would also benefit from seeing these objects highlighted.

    alnair
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    The most elegant way to implement multiple selection is to select the characters when the player touches multiple portraits at once.

  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    ljbo said:

    I'd still like to promote the 2 finger scrolling.

    -1

    There are two strong reasons to keep one finger scrolling imho:
    • this is the most frequent action and it should therefore be the simplest gesture;
    • one finger scrolling is the standard gesture for that purpose across all apps on iOS.
    A good illustration of the last point is Apple Maps or Google Maps: one finger scrolling and tap to interact with elements of the map. Another illustration of the fact that the current design is not flawed. Only its implementation.

    As for the 2 missing features on the iPad, I'd make the following suggestions:
    • Waypoints: they could be set by a longer tap, with a normal (i.e. quicker) tap at the end to set characters into motion;
    • Rotating party: most clearly the two-finger rotation here; it may adversely interfere with two-finger pinch for zooming in and out but that could still be manageable.
    The largest issue I have is the top 3 functions of the game are:

    1) Select
    2) Move
    3) Change Camera Location

    Unfortunately when you put Party Rotation into the mix, this becomes a problem. Select and Move belong on the same gesture...but since they're the top two functions in the game you'd think they'd be the easiest (i.e. 1 Finger Tap). Change camera location being the 3rd most popular thing you'll do during the game, could be kept on the same gesture (as identified above) but then we have no gesture to support Party Rotation.

    If you move to 2 finger tap to move (and thus 2 finger tap and rotate for party rotation) you now separate Select and Move too two different gestures. This gets REALLY weird when you have to tap with 2 fingers to move close to a barrel or chest or tap with 1 finger to move TO a barrel or chest.

    If you move to a 2 finger tap to move and select (and 2 finger tap and rotate to party rotation) you've now moved the top 2 gestures you'll do in the game to 2 finger rather than 1 finger...NOT as intuitive as you'd want it to be.

    Staying with 1 Finger select and move and going to 2 finger tap and drag for camera takes out 2 finger tap and rotate for Party Orientation.

    Perhaps the concept of the left/right mouse button helps us in this discussion.

    Left Click = Select or Move = 1 Finger Tap
    Left Click and Drag = Move Camera = 1 Finger Tap and Drag
    Right Click and Drag = Party Orientation = 2 Finger Tap and Rotate

    This actually provides an additional benefit: 2 Finger Tap now allows something else (you have tap and rotate, maybe 2 finger tap provides the same thing as 1 finger tap does).

  • nsrnsr Member Posts: 174

    I wanted to address my other key interface issue with a separate comment. I've got a beef with exits that aren't highlighted. Especially doors which are hidden behind buildings, which really aren't obvious, but also less hidden sewer grates and perhaps even more obvious entrances that just don't happen to have a glowing purple door to open.

    The "smart radius" feature made it easy to find such exits if you knew to go looking for them, but for new players in particular, it isn't obvious that the sewer grate is an entrance or that a building has a door behind it. It will get worse in BG2 with several background objects that don't highlight but are important to interact with, such as the wand traps in the first dungeon.

    Since there's no cursor hover to reveal such objects on a tablet, I'd like all important interactive objects to highlight when the highlight button is pressed, not just doors and chests. While I realize this is new functionality and therefore harder to implement, I think PC users would also benefit from seeing these objects highlighted.

    I agree with this, and would like it extended to other objects that can be interacted with. Sometimes you can click on something and it will show text, most obvious examples are in Durlag's tower. I did not realize one item could be interacted with until I saw some floating text in a screenshot.

  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    As to this last statement, this gets worse in BG2 where most of the interactive objects are "Tap to get an effect" like in durlag's...and NONE of them show up with the hint key.

    The good news is that discussion has already been started! While there is no official "fix" incoming, I brought up EXACTLY this point with the testing teams and we all agree something needs done about it. So, at least, there's some visibility to the fact that non-highlightable objects that need to be interacted with are going to be impossible for a new player to recognize on an iPad.

    famousringo
  • VintrastormVintrastorm Member Posts: 216
    @Illydth I'm thinking that maybe we should invite the andorid forum to this discussion. Sure, they do not have BG:EE (on android) but they will in the future and might have suggestions too. My guess is that the touch gestures being used in the ipad version will mirror the ones that are coming to android.

  • nsrnsr Member Posts: 174

    @Illydth I'm thinking that maybe we should invite the andorid forum to this discussion. Sure, they do not have BG:EE (on android) but they will in the future and might have suggestions too. My guess is that the touch gestures being used in the ipad version will mirror the ones that are coming to android.

    On the other hand, iPad users may actually have usability issues that they've run into, while Android users would only have theory. But I agree that users of both platforms can probably come up with solutions to the usability issues.

  • famousringofamousringo Member Posts: 28
    Illydth said:

    As to this last statement, this gets worse in BG2 where most of the interactive objects are "Tap to get an effect" like in durlag's...and NONE of them show up with the hint key.

    The good news is that discussion has already been started! While there is no official "fix" incoming, I brought up EXACTLY this point with the testing teams and we all agree something needs done about it. So, at least, there's some visibility to the fact that non-highlightable objects that need to be interacted with are going to be impossible for a new player to recognize on an iPad.

    Great to hear. I appreciate it may be a difficult problem to solve, but at least now I know they're trying to think of ways to solve it.

  • LavecLavec Member Posts: 6
    I tend to think that the tap/drag/move issue is more of a bug than a need to implement a two-finger or other solution. I haven't had issues in other applications for it distinguishing between a tap and a drag and accidentally doing both with one action. It would be my preference if it could be fixed first of all.

    If this can't be fixed, then I prefer the two button drag solution for moving the world around. Another solution though could be to add screen hot zone for dragging the view around while in most of the screen it would work only as a selection or move action, much like you have on most modern iPad games as a view 'ghost' button over the main view. This could be too difficult to implement maybe and if it can be done with two fingers then why bother.

    On missing functionality in iPad version:
    1. On lack of hover-over tooltips and Tab button. This is perhaps my most missed functionality on the iPad version. I would love to be able to switch the UI mode so moving my finger around the screen act like a mouse hover rather than a click. This way on any screen I can get the tooltips, world highlights for secrets, waypoints, etc. This could be implemented by adding a new button to switch mode, maybe it could even act like a Tab button too and highlight all containers, waypoints, etc. as it does on the desktop version.

    I know there is a Help screen that was implemented to somewhat help with this but it only works to replace hover-over highlights on the main interface shortcuts and it's somewhat cumbersome to use. So it's incomplete and not very useful - however it could be extend maybe especially if you could click on the spells and items to get descriptions, then it would be quite a useful UI addition in both the iPad and desktop versions, but that's a separate suggestion really.

    2. On lack of multi-select. I think this could be implemented by making the drag button also a multi-select button, so click Drag button, select characters from portraits or UI (single click only, not drag), then select drag button again to lock in selection. Drag would work as is and automatically lock in selection on complete of drag.

    3. On lack of formation direction. Hopefully this can be implemented by using a double click or long click and drag, if single click and drag is fixed to be map move. If map move is changed to a two finger action then just a click and drag would suffice I guess (with a threshold so it's not accidentally done, i.e click and drag a certain distance before formation direction is changed.)

    I can't think what else is missing. I don't know if it's my clumsy fingers but thus far I have been unable to play on the iPad due to the drag/move issue so I can't wait to see a fix for that. Luckily I have the desktop version too to keep me playing for now though.

  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    To continue the Discussion, Please see the First Page, Second Post. It has been updated with the comments so far.

  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    edited November 2013
    So I'm going to throw this out there and see if it sticks...this might be way wild. This is based off the discussion in the second post from what's already been posted here in this thread.

    Taps and Their Translations to the Windows Game:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    * One Finger Short Tap (< 0.5s) = Left Click. [CURRENT]
    * One Finger Long Tap (> 0.5s) = Right Click [CURRENT]
    * Two Finger Short Tap (< 0.5s) = Shift - Left Click
    * Two Finger Long Tap (> 0.5s) = Right Click

    (Note: You need both 1 and 2 finger Long Tap to be Right Click because you need 1 Finger Long Tap for Normal Right Click and 2 Finger Long Tap for Allowing a Rotate Gesture)

    One Finger Short Tap + Release: Move (Left Click) [CURRENT]
    One Finger Short Tap + Release on Portrait: De-select all Characters, Select Character Tapped On. (Left Click) [CURRENT]
    One Finger Short Tap + Drag: Scroll Screen (Left Click and Drag) [CURRENT]
    One Finger Short Tap + Drag on Portrait: Reorder Party (Left Click and Drag) [CURRENT]
    One Finger Long Tap + Release on Object: Right Click Object [CURRENT]
    Two Finger Short Tap + Release: Set Waypoint (Shift-Left Click)
    Two Finger Short Tap + Release on Portrait: Multi-Select Characters (Shift-Left Click on Portrait)
    Two Finger Long Tap + Rotate: Party Orientation (Right Click and Drag)
    One or Two Finger Long Tap on Portrait: Enter Character Inventory (Right Click Portrait).

    Does this cover pretty much the interface gestures? Am I missing something? This looks like it pretty much covers all the missing functionality we've talked about so far?

    I've recommended the 2 Finger Short Tap and Release on Portraits to do a Quick "Shift Click" on a portrait to allow multi-select. This is identical to the functionality of shift-clicking portraits to select multiple people. Would seem to be VERY quick to say "I want person 1, 3, 4 and 6 to attack this guy and 2 and 5 to attack the other":

    * One Finger Tap 1 (to deselect current character and select 1)
    * Two finger tap 3, 4, and 6 (adds 3, 4 and 6 to the already selected 1)
    * Tap the enemy (to attack)
    * One finger tap 2 (to deselect 1, 3, 4 and 6, and select 2)
    * Two finger tap 5 (To add 5 to the already selected 2)
    * Tap the second Enemy. (to Attack)

    This is actually no different than in the Windows Version of the game, and provides duplicate functionality.

    Other Topics:
    --------------------------
    Add AOE Visibility to Spells: I LOVE this idea, but it's not in the original game at all...nor in BG2. There's really nothing that supports this. I'm happy to recommend it as an enhancement, but I would expect this is a pretty large change.

    Pause Button: Hum, where does your thumb naturally sit then for the pause button? I never felt like I had an issue with the pause button where it was at, as well, I rarely felt pressed for time to hit the pause button since with the Active Pausing options the game provided, most of the time I never really used the pause button to stop the game, only to start it back up again.

    Drop Down Conversations: As much as I agree with big hands having problems with the dialog interface (dragging your finger till you get the right one highlighted still isn't that good a solution), the UI Picker option would seem to be a TERRIBLE way to implement this given the size of some of the dialogs. To put the ENTIRE dialog into a UI Picker at the font it uses would make for some hellish reading. Not to mention the UI Picker object sticks out like a sore thumb and really would break immersion every 5 seconds with as many times as you have dialog. Even having just the numbers in a scrolling dialog to select would somewhat annoy me.

    I like the option of small buttons for selecting options 1 - 3 or whatever but what happens when you get into "give me the answer to this question" dialogs where there are literally 10 choices? Maybe with Dialog you have something like 10 buttons drawn and you only "light up" (enable) the ones that matter?

    Not convinced I've heard a proper way of handling this yet, but then again, I've not played KOTOR on the iPad yet (Have it, haven't started it yet), so maybe KOTOR handles this the right way.

    Help "Mode": I utterly love a help "mode", however, here again, this is completely new code. They implemented the "Hints" button as a simple "tab" key (it does the same thing as the tab key on the windows game). Hints "mode" would be a natural evolution for the tablet interfaces of the hint button (and needed due to the lack of mouse drag over the screen), but there's really no "button" or "button combination" functionality you can throw at it.

    BeridelfamousringoIllustair
  • LavecLavec Member Posts: 6
    I love your analysis Illydth. I will study this and reply with my thinking. For now all I can say is that any two-finger action can't involve a location, such as set waypoint, select portrait, etc, since there are two locations and you can't know which one the user meant. Only single finger actions can involve a precise location. With that in mind you might want to rethink things a little.

  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    Actually I would argue with you. There are precise locations for 2 finger taps. You can use either of the below:

    1) Middle between the two fingers.
    2) First finger to hit the touch screen.

    You should also be able to detect a second finger placement on the touch pad after a first within a period of time, making a 2 finger tap be a 1 finger tap + a second finger tap within a limited time period. Same concepts apply.

    You already have ambiguity in the game: I right click my mouse with 6 characters in the party for party orientation...in the double column layout, which character is going to end up under the mouse cursor?

    You do not NEED precise placement, "close enough" is fine in the case where you're doing 2 finger actions.

    There is no place in the game where you need pixel quality placement. And honestly, compared to where we're at right now with NOT having Waypoints or orientation, anything is better than nothing.

    alnair
  • LavecLavec Member Posts: 6
    Point taken. I stand corrected then that a portrait could be selected with two fingers if both finger fall within the portrait location. I have reservations it could work for setting waypoints though, I understand your thinking but I don't think it's practical. I also think there is logic to the formation placement being the centre of the head of the formation, or the centre of a circular formation.

    Can I propose these actions could be handled as such:
    - Waypoints: this would work nicely if there was a Move button next to the Talk button. This button would act to place a new waypoint when selected. I've tried thinking of a good natural way of using gestures only to set waypoints and I can't come up with anything that would work well. On the desktop version you can also select waypoints with formations and rotations in between too but I think that is pretty impractical and I've never used waypoints like that usual just for individual commands. Anyway my conclusion is a Move action button would be the best implementation. There already is Talk, Attack, and Stop action buttons so a Move button would fit right in.
    - Rotation: I still think the method I proposed before would work well. You press and hold a location to move to then you drag you finger the direction you want to rotate the formation much like a right click action works. You can move around you original location to spin the rotation around. In your list above it would be One Finger Long Tap + Drag & Rotate: Party Orientation (Right Click and Drag). On release it sets the move location and formation orientation.
    The second suggestion is like yours (perhaps it is what you are suggesting anyway) but clear on finger order, so one finger tap & hold, second finger tap and drag to rotate, lift both fingers to set location and formation orientation. It would translate as One Finger Tap & Hold + Second Finger Tap & Drag: Part Orientation (Right Click and Drag).
    Either implementation would work imho.

    Anyway I'm keen to see how 1.2 handles things first as it does depend a lot on whether that fixes one finger gestures. Otherwise two-finger drag might be needed for screen scroll, much like in my browser right now on a trackpad - two-fingers acts as a scroll function while one-finger drag is just mouse move and hover over.

    Thanks for the effort you are putting into this Illydth. I really hope it leads to an improved iPad version.

  • nsrnsr Member Posts: 174
    I just played partway through BG2:EE on a Mac and saw how many objects in the environment that need to be interacted with. With a mouse it's easy because the cursor changes when you hover over the object. Not sure how this would work with a touch interface- I feel like highlighting all of the objects may be too much (some areas have many many objects), and maybe even too easy (some areas I had to move my mouse around a bit to find the appropriate object to interact with).

    There is a benefit iPad users get over desktop players though - the "hint" button shows names and injured status of creatures. On a desktop, you have to hover the mouse over to get the name of a creature to slowly reveal itself.

This discussion has been closed.