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Judgment vs. Judgement

BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
edited November 2013 in Off-Topic
Hi folks,

For the better of all denizens of the world it is about time this conflict reaches a consensus. Which version of the word is superior?

I've read somewhere that "judgment" is the original form (despite any myth saying that it is an "americanized" version), while the use of "judgement" originated sometime in the 19th or 20th century.

From a grammatical point of view I would support "judgement", but I also believe in staying true to the initial form.

May the voting commence!

Judgment vs. Judgement 27 votes

Judgment
22%
markzakuJalilyFinneousPJmeaglothHenriusMcKnightold_jolly2 6 votes
Judgement
77%
smeagolheartelminsterFlashburnBasillicumwillum69ChildofBhaal599QuartzSwordsNotWordsShadowHunterElzarathAristilliusOneAngryMushroomImperatormement0KidCarnivalRnRClownCrevsDaakdementedzerckanMrDarth 21 votes

Comments

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    There's no "superior version." Both are correct.

    EntropyXII
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    If you drink a lot of tea and have dental problems, then judgment is for legal matters, judgement for everything else.
    If you own a gun and drive a truck, then judgment is your choice for all situations.
    If you are a lumberjack, judgment is for legal matters, and both forms for everything else, judgment being more common.
    If you are a convict, judgment is for legal matters, and both forms for everything else, judgement being more common.
    If you are a sheepshagger, judgement is your choice for all situations.

    Fredjololien
  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    Exactly what @Schneidend said. There are many more of these types of words which have often come under scrutiny for exactly the same reasons. 'Herb' and 'Erb' with the silent pronunciation of the H is another one. It's funny - I have little debates with my 'murican GF all the time about this same topic. She yells at me, and tells me the 'merican way of saying 'erb is the correct way because that's the oldest form. So I ask her to say 'helicopter' or 'hot'. The confusion that runs across her face is priceless.

    Aluminium and Aluminum. Colour and Color.

    Usually these battles are fought between Brits and Americans to which was the earliest form (not the only nations of course - but I prefer to speak from experience), or what came first. Regardless - English is an ever changing language and the truth is: Both nations have made changes to the language over the past 200 years. I am still in shock that 'Innit' - a word invented through UK street slang some 20+ years ago has nowadays made it's way into the Oxford Dictionary.

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/innit

    Either way, both forms are correct - but let's continue the banter, because it's funny.

    The only thing that has ever bothered me (upon visiting my girls parents in Maryland) was when I visited the store.

    Checkout Girl: "Oh my god you have an amazing accent, where are you from?"
    Me: "England"
    Checkout Girl: "Wow, England! I love England! What language do you speak over there?"
    Me: "Well, I'm English - so I speak English. What language do you speak?"
    Checkout Girl: "Oh, I only speak American, but I'd love to learn English!"
    Me: .....

    @iKrivetko - Some pretty harsh stereotyping going on there! :P

    CrevsDaak
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,145
    Judgement
    @EntropyXII and I tend to say I speak both American and English together, because I learned them as the same thing and I also say they are like Spain's Spanish and Argentina's Spanish, same language, but with different ways and words.

    EntropyXIIKidCarnival
  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    @Crevsdaak - Usually (unless it's banter) those Brits and Americans who tend to have serious complaints about these things don't usually know the history behind the words or the language.

    It has taken me some time to figure this out but the only conclusion I can come to is that:

    A) Those few American's with serious complaints hate the fact they speak a borrowed language.
    B) Those few Brits that complain wrongly believe that English is a static language and should remain unchanged. Any deviation is butchery!

    The truth is: many words changed in the 19th century through illiteracy and migration. Those that would move to the America's often could not read or write and this became evident in future spelling. They would often come from poor 19th century industrialised parts of Britain - like where I am from. Language was different in this part of the UK compared to the wealthy south. We still say 'pants' up in Manchester - like the yanks, instead of 'trousers' like British southerners.

    Apologies to the Canadian's, Australians, New Zealanders and the rest of the Anglo-world for missing you out here. Like I said above: I try to speak from experience only.

    CrevsDaak
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110
    Both are, in fact, correct.

    Other forms are "iugement," which later became "iuggement," which later became "iudgement."

    It dates from Old and Middle English. The version that most closely resembles what we have today, jugement, comes from around the 11th Century. Use of both words, judgement and judgment, became accepted in the late-16th and early-17th Century, which disproves any notion of being American-ised, since the colonisation was only just happening at the time. The original word had an 'e' in it, so if you wanted to argue semantics that would be it. The context seemed to have an impact on the exact spelling, where it was different if used in a religious sense as opposed to being used in a declaration of law. Courts used Judgement while the church or other religious texts/declarations would use Judgment.

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,346
    Judgement
    In my judgement, I'd say I pick ...

  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    edited November 2013
    @Troodon80 - Excellent point. In truth, most words that people proclaim to have been 'Americanised' are actually words that have had different forms long before mass migration took place. English only began to be standardised with the invention of the printing press some 500 years ago, and even then it took a while to really take hold across the country.

    I was transcribing a 19th century minute book earlier this year when I came across something odd. The minuter on the same page wrote 'labour' and 'labor' in the same context. I still can't work out why, and neither can colleagues. We just assumed that this stuff mattered much less back then, when compared with today.

    My personal rule is: Pick a form that best fits your context and be consistent with it. I'd say pick one that you would prefer, but I have known lecturers/tutors/teachers in the UK give minus marks for students that use American spelling. I am guessing it is similar on the other side of the Atlantic.

    Troodon80
  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    @iKrivetko - I happen to think I have lovely teeth, thank you very much :P

  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110
    @EntropyXII, RE: Labour and Labor. Most likely a spelling error. It was not uncommon, they didn't have spell-checkers back then. :D

  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    @EntropyXII does your dentist happen to think so as well?

  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    @Troodon80 - :D Well, I would once have come up with a counter argument to this - However, I no longer have Microsoft Word on this computer and standard WordPad reveals the full horror of my unedited spelling. I am ashamed.

    Troodon80
  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    @iKrivetko - He better do, with the amount of money I pay him! :D

    I have never understood this particular stereotype.

  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    @EntropyXII Neither have I. I even gave up googling that.

    EntropyXII
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110
    @iKrivetko @EntropyXII, that particular stereotype has a history, and not entirely off-base. Given dental plans these days, it no longer applies to the younger generations. If you could see some of my friends, you could probably understand the stereotype a little better.

    These days, that stereotype is about as valid as when an American refers to "Cockney" as being an actual place name of an area in London. To them, Cockney is an area—though they're not exactly sure where if asked to point it out on a map—where people dress funny, have funny accents, and have a strange lingo. Those haddocks can ne'er get their loaf around the basics of taking and giving in our fine country, especially in the old oak.

    EntropyXII
  • old_jolly2old_jolly2 Member Posts: 453
    Judgment
    Judgment retains the 'feeling of the meaning' in latin letters , looking charismatic , but that means it is more fitting in the case.

  • BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
    Judgement
    Great fun reading everyone's responses!

    I just want to clear something up (as it seems like some of you might have taken the thread more seriously than I intended it to be):
    I am aware that there are many words that have more than one correct form, but I think "judgment/judgement" is one of the more interesting ones, as there seem to be different interpretations of both forms - depending on who you ask - and because I think the "judgment" form is very inconsistent with other similar words in contemporary use, like "arrangement" or "enlargement". Other words that have more than one accepted form do at least have the decency to usually follow a rule or a tendency, like "color/colour", armor/armour" or "realise/realize".

    "Aluminum/aluminium" is interesting though. To me "aluminium" feels right, since that is what we use in my own language.

    @Troodon80 I love that you were able to bring in that level of etymology in your post. "Iuggement" is new to me (somehow it makes me think of "juggernaut", which I suppose could be fitting in a Judge Dredd-setting), and I'm even wondering if I should start using it just to check out what reactions I'd get. :P

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Judgment


    The only thing that has ever bothered me (upon visiting my girls parents in Maryland) was when I visited the store.

    Checkout Girl: "Oh my god you have an amazing accent, where are you from?"
    Me: "England"
    Checkout Girl: "Wow, England! I love England! What language do you speak over there?"
    Me: "Well, I'm English - so I speak English. What language do you speak?"
    Checkout Girl: "Oh, I only speak American, but I'd love to learn English!"
    Me: .....

    @iKrivetko - Some pretty harsh stereotyping going on there! :P



    I just want to clarify, only MOST of us are that stupid. The vast majority of less than a quarter of Americans know that they speak English. Unfortunately not enough of us are that dumb as to let me take British English for a foreign language in high school.

    That said, I speak both, nearly. I've lived in America my whole life, but watch too much British television for my own good. Doctor who, to gear, spy, ect. I no longer notice English accents like most Americans do. I could still tel you that the accent is British, but it doesn't make any difference to me like it does to most of us. I occasionally get mocked by my friends because of this.
    One word that the Brits use and merica doesn't, is bloke. I'd never heard this word until I watched top gear, and was very confused as to what it meant for a while. But It shows up as a word in my iOS spell check, so maybe we're supposed to.

    EntropyXII
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110

    I love that you were able to bring in that level of etymology in your post.

    @Basillicum, I aim to please. :D

  • WorgWorg Member Posts: 170
    Wow, yeah. Ye olde english can be unreadable at times. I remember when studying english back in the day, and failing gloriously, I had to define certain old words and give the contemporary spelling. The only one I remember was "Gaol" and I could not for the life of me tell what it was supposed be until I got the answer "Jail" (which I beleive is the americanized version).

  • BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
    Judgement
    @Worg "Gaoler" is sometimes still used, I think. But no, I don't think I would have managed to figure that one out either.

  • dementeddemented Member Posts: 388
    Judgement

    Exactly what @Schneidend said. There are many more of these types of words which have often come under scrutiny for exactly the same reasons. 'Herb' and 'Erb' with the silent pronunciation of the H is another one. It's funny - I have little debates with my 'murican GF all the time about this same topic. She yells at me, and tells me the 'merican way of saying 'erb is the correct way because that's the oldest form. So I ask her to say 'helicopter' or 'hot'. The confusion that runs across her face is priceless.

    Aluminium and Aluminum. Colour and Color.

    Usually these battles are fought between Brits and Americans to which was the earliest form (not the only nations of course - but I prefer to speak from experience), or what came first. Regardless - English is an ever changing language and the truth is: Both nations have made changes to the language over the past 200 years. I am still in shock that 'Innit' - a word invented through UK street slang some 20+ years ago has nowadays made it's way into the Oxford Dictionary.

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/innit

    Either way, both forms are correct - but let's continue the banter, because it's funny.

    The only thing that has ever bothered me (upon visiting my girls parents in Maryland) was when I visited the store.

    Checkout Girl: "Oh my god you have an amazing accent, where are you from?"
    Me: "England"
    Checkout Girl: "Wow, England! I love England! What language do you speak over there?"
    Me: "Well, I'm English - so I speak English. What language do you speak?"
    Checkout Girl: "Oh, I only speak American, but I'd love to learn English!"
    Me: .....

    @iKrivetko - Some pretty harsh stereotyping going on there! :P

    From the moment you said 'innit, Catherine Tate's voice has been stuck in my head.

  • old_jolly2old_jolly2 Member Posts: 453
    Judgment
    You can not give evidences that easy... Oxford Dictionary is never a pillar for English , nor any other dictionary... In fact , by stating dictionary as a source of language is lamish , as yoU YOURSELF are using it... So , do "YOU" look at dictionary , every time you descend to streets ? Come on , not think so...

    Please state some good evidences , and do not try the %100 level at this phase , it seems awkward , AS , you "WOULD" understand if someone writes "Judgment" ? or , "judegement" even by mistyping ? Just let the languages go , children ; use them , they should not use you... They don't need watchdogs to keep themselves what you think in an ornated state , they' just there so you bend and demanufacture them at your will.

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