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Is BG2:EE Accessible to New Players?

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  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    Mungri said:

    Because being able to read a manual makes someone elitist. Ok.

    I disagree with having tutorial videos, there are thousands of lets play videos of this game on youtube already that any new player can look up.

    I have never played a game in my life that required me to watch a let's play series in order to understand the mechanics, and neither should new players. If a game is a digital download, it should give you all the tools to understand and play the game properly within that download. Yes, there are the manuals (found externally), but creating a learning experience within the game that's a little easier to digest might help broaden the game's appeal. A new player is more likely to recommend a game to her friends if it's a game she can understand and excel at.

    Anyone else have any constructive ideas?
    BaldursCatCrevsDaak
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    edited November 2013
    i came from modern games when my love for Mass Effect 1 and 2 drove me to play DA:O, and my love for each of them to drive me to search out the game that made Bioware, being Baldur's Gate. I remember all of those deaths in Nashkel as I took my poorly made ranger through it. truly though the reward for sticking through it was great, and when the EEs were announced I instantly supported them. Funny how something suddenly seems to be prevelant again when I just get into an old thing or become aware of it's existance.

    even having experienced the first game to complete, the second game has so many more elements that it is still pretty hard to keep up with. i remember my first time with vampires and wondering why it was that I was dying with full health, and why my characters were growing weaker in the first place. turns out vampires had level drain and I die at level 0.

    truly this game does have a lot to learn. I didn't beat the whole series until after the first EE came out, but now that I have learned I am taking on bigger challenges such as SCS and am going to maybe finish the final Ascension battle this time. I like that it doesn't hold your hand for sure. I really feel likes devs things we are stupid when a game tells me something like left analog stick to move. that is common sense with a controller!

    nostalgia and rant aside, what do i think needs explaining? you could explain thaco and ac, and how you should have them lower and maybe an easy explanation of how they are calculated. explain how certain enemies require certain enchantment levels, or some enemies require blunt weapons. try to give emphasis on the importance of reading all the spells and show them to some good ones, like dispel magic. the magic system in general really needs explanation. I avoided magic in my first playthrough because I didn't know how to do it, with the writing, memorization, having a limited amount of spells at that point that needed rest to regain. I remember a thread complaining about real time gameplay, so point players toward the auto pause function. lastly you should explain some of the class features. i had a ranger thinking i would get more spells and faster, and got disappointed then.

    one other things that would be good to clear up is simply how advanced the game is, how challenging it is for a newcomer. remind them that it will take learning but after learning they will have a great time in one of the best RPGs ever.

    edit: could also be worth warning that they should take time seriously. i remember many threads about random deaths caused because they ignored the importance of the poisin quest in BG1
    PurudayaBelgarathMTHJuliusBorisov
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    Note that one of the big loss (And also a big win, too) are the loading screens.

    They used to be filled with tips. How will someone know that to kill a troll, you need to deal fire or acid damage rather than him staying down unkillable beeing a bug ?

    And so on.

    I know the game pretty well, but yeah, for a newcomer that knows nothing of AD&D, BG2 can probably be a harsh experience
  • agrisagris Member Posts: 581
    edited November 2013
    Aranthys said:

    Note that one of the big loss (And also a big win, too) are the loading screens.

    They used to be filled with tips. How will someone know that to kill a troll, you need to deal fire or acid damage rather than him staying down unkillable beeing a bug ?

    And so on.

    I know the game pretty well, but yeah, for a newcomer that knows nothing of AD&D, BG2 can probably be a harsh experience

    @Dee Couldn't the tips be printed to the Log on every save/load event? Similar to printing the text of selection or command sounds.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645

    Mungri said:

    Because being able to read a manual makes someone elitist. Ok.

    I disagree with having tutorial videos, there are thousands of lets play videos of this game on youtube already that any new player can look up.

    No, but deriding everyone who might struggle with BG 2, and imply that they are stupid, is elitist.

    Let's Plays have the same problem as walkthroughs. Spoilers! This is an RPG, the story is half the game. If I was stuck on say the Demon Knight in Durlag's Tower... how do I check a LP or walkthrough without being sure I won't spoiler the Aec'Letec surprise when I get back to Ulgoth's Beard? Or more specifically the assassins about to ambush me the second I return. The only solution I can see is asking on forums... but not everyone is gonna find this forum, and not everyone is going to bother investing so much effort to learn to play a game.


    Do tell me where I made any reference to Intelligence. So you don't want any spoilers, but you want your hand held through the game? What's the difference?

    Fact of the matter is this game is meant to be hard, and everyone playing it for the first time is supposed to struggle, why exactly are you trying to spoil that?
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Mungri said:

    Mungri said:

    Because being able to read a manual makes someone elitist. Ok.

    I disagree with having tutorial videos, there are thousands of lets play videos of this game on youtube already that any new player can look up.

    No, but deriding everyone who might struggle with BG 2, and imply that they are stupid, is elitist.

    Let's Plays have the same problem as walkthroughs. Spoilers! This is an RPG, the story is half the game. If I was stuck on say the Demon Knight in Durlag's Tower... how do I check a LP or walkthrough without being sure I won't spoiler the Aec'Letec surprise when I get back to Ulgoth's Beard? Or more specifically the assassins about to ambush me the second I return. The only solution I can see is asking on forums... but not everyone is gonna find this forum, and not everyone is going to bother investing so much effort to learn to play a game.


    Do tell me where I made any reference to Intelligence. So you don't want any spoilers, but you want your hand held through the game? What's the difference?

    Fact of the matter is this game is meant to be hard, and everyone playing it for the first time is supposed to struggle, why exactly are you trying to spoil that?
    "Oh right wait, those are also the grown men that 11 year old me would have absolutely slaughtered in a game of chess."

    I don't 'want my hand held' through the game. I want the game to have more ingame information that I can access so I can learn about the game without resorting to spoiler risky LPs or Walkthroughs. Why is that so difficult to understand?!

    For example, in Civ 5, I never wanted to be told a specific build/research order, but it was useful to be able to find out that, in order to build a quarry to mine marble, I need to research Masonry. In BG 2 beginners are left to seek external assistance or blunder around trial-and-error, and since the game is so complex, it is not often clear what to do, or what made the difference even if you won a battle.

    For example...



    I won that battle, but at the end, had little idea how. A bestiary entry about a Lesser Demon Lord would have been useful.

    PurudayaBelgarathMTHJuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050


    I won that battle, but at the end, had little idea how. A bestiary entry about a Lesser Demon Lord would have been useful.

    To be fair, "Demon Lord" usually should tell you not to fight it unless you're feeling really badass...
    CrevsDaak
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    FFG said:

    Just another casual nerd that wants his fast-food, hand holding instant gratification, nothing too surprising here.

    Oh god, no, not casual nerds futzing about in video games like they're a fricking hobby that you play for fun. What is this world coming to?
    FFG said:


    To answer your question OP, BG2 is accessible to newcomers, as long as they have an open mind and are willing to learn a few things.

    Ha ha, no, it really really isn't. If you have no grounding in AD&D 2ed, Baldur's Gate II is very, very difficult to get a handle on.

    And anybody new to it should start in BG1 unless they can't stand the lack of character interaction, because whether wolves are a threat to you or not, it is much, much easier to get a handle on a game when you're building characters from the ground up, don't have special requirements to even hurt enemies, don't have to worry about enemy spellcaster defences, and have three or four spells to weigh the merits of rather than thirty or forty.
    PurudayaHeindrichBelgarathMTHCrevsDaak
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    @Kaltzor

    lol I handled it didn't I? :p

    Apparently the battle was avoidable, but I chose what I thought were rational/sensible options throughout the playthrough, and I couldn't risk the Dragon's real eggs actually being sacrificed. It's not like Charname said 'Yo! Puny demon, suck on Celestial Fury!' as soon as it was summoned.
    BelgarathMTHCrevsDaak
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    Actually, a bestiary would be a brilliant idea for the game. Pity is wasn't thought of (or wasn't feasible for whatever reason) to include at release.
    PurudayaBelgarathMTHHeindrichCrevsDaak
  • ambrennanambrennan Member Posts: 173
    I have never played a game in my life that required me to watch a let's play series in order to understand the mechanics, and neither should new players
    I'm sorry, but why do you think manuals exist since you seem to think that no one should have to read them?

    It is your prerogative to skip reading the manual when you start building a new game or assemble a piece of flat-pack furniture, but if you do that than you waive any right to complain about getting a sub-par result.
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    ambrennan said:


    I'm sorry, but why do you think manuals exist since you seem to think that no one should have to read them?

    Most people don't. That's why modern games use in-game tutorials instead. Many of them don't even have manuals even if you buy store copies rather than online, or the manuals only cover the very basics.
    ambrennan said:


    It is your prerogative to skip reading the manual when you start building a new game or assemble a piece of flat-pack furniture, but if you do that than you waive any right to complain about getting a sub-par result.

    You assemble furniture as a chore. You play a game for fun. There is a difference.
    PurudayaBelgarathMTH
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Ayiekie You don't play a game for fun. You play it to display intellectual superiority on the Interwebz.
    HeindrichPurudayaBelgarathMTH
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    edited November 2013
    ambrennan said:

    I have never played a game in my life that required me to watch a let's play series in order to understand the mechanics, and neither should new players
    I'm sorry, but why do you think manuals exist since you seem to think that no one should have to read them?

    It is your prerogative to skip reading the manual when you start building a new game or assemble a piece of flat-pack furniture, but if you do that than you waive any right to complain about getting a sub-par result.


    Nowhere in either EE game do i see any prompts for players to read the manuals, or even indications to the player that they exist (I think there is one such reference in BG2:EE options, but it's not immediately apparent). Some players aren't even going to know that the manuals are available, and others might not want to read 60 pages just to play a $10 game they downloaded on their iPad.

    As @Ayiekie pointed out, modern games have at least some form of in-game tutorial or tip/help system. The game already has limited-depth videos in the "how to play" section; what would be wrong with including something more comprehensive there?

    At the very least, the devs could implement an e-reader so that players could read the manuals from within the game's UI.
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975

    @Ayiekie You don't play a game for fun. You play it to display intellectual superiority on the Interwebz.

    Oh. Well, uh, I play Victoria II, an economic and colonialism simulator set in 1836-1936, so faugh on you and all your kiddy elves! I've made Wiang Chhan a colonial power. (sips on latte, peers over glasses) You've probably never heard of it.
    FinneousPJ
  • GodmarGodmar Member Posts: 159
    edited November 2013
    I played and finished BG2 when I was 14 years old, starting knowing nothing about AD&D rules, THAC0, AC mechanics and AD&D rules, and knowing nothing about the first BG. I learned the basics the first time I played. How? Simply playing and reading the manual. It's not difficult. Even a brainless monkey can do this. If someone thinks that BG2 rules are too difficult, it's because he is a complete idiot or because he is too lazy to spend some minutes to learn them. The problem is not the game, but the player: if he isn't able (or if he doesn't want) to learn some simple rules, he has chosen the wrong game. He can play Skyrim.
    Mungri
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    edited November 2013
    I posted on forums without calling people names when I was 14 years old, starting knowing nothing about netiquette, the formal rules of conversation, or what the meaning of the word "discourse" in "polite discourse" was. I learned the basics the first time I posted. How? Simply posting and reading what other people posted with respect. It's not difficult. Even an ill-bred savage can do this. If someone thinks that there is no possible reason a game could be difficult to someone else other than inherent character or mental flaws, it's because he lacks imagination and empathy. The problem is not with the game, or the forum, but with the poster: if he/she isn't able (or if he/she doesn't want) to learn some simple rules of courtesy, he/she has chosen the wrong forum. They can go to 4chan.

    (Disclaimer: That's a total lie, I did call people names online when I was 14. But that was when I was 14.)
    BelgarathMTH
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited November 2013
    Our 12-year-old daughter and 10-year-old son play BGEE and haven't encountered any problems getting used to the mechanics or figuring out the user interface. Conclusion: yes, the game is accessible to new players without undue difficulty.
    Mungri
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    edited November 2013
    Godmar said:

    I played and finished BG2 when I was 14 years old, starting knowing nothing about AD&D rules, THAC0, AC mechanics and AD&D rules, and knowing nothing about the first BG. I learned the basics the first time I played. How? Simply playing and reading the manual. It's not difficult. Even a brainless monkey can do this. If someone thinks that BG2 rules are too difficult, it's because he is a complete idiot or because he is too lazy to spend some minutes to learn them. The problem is not the game, but the player: if he isn't able (or if he doesn't want) to learn some simple rules, he has chosen the wrong game. He can play Skyrim.

    Hi @Godmar,

    I think you'd be right if this were 2000 and customers were unboxing this game with spiral-bound manuals included. As has been said *many* times in this thread, however, new players don't get exposed to the manuals like they did when the game was first released (they are not included in the download and the game does not provide an overt suggestion to read them). That, combined with no tutorial and a lack of loading screens (which used to provide tips) creates situations that leave new players stuck.

    What I was hoping to facilitate with this thread were ideas that might mitigate that problem. Not changing the rules, not dumbing anything down, but making the relevant information more easily accessible to the player. Beamdog already got a good start by including "how to play" videos, but these could probably be elaborated on.

    I think it's great that you played through the game at age 14 with no problems. Thing is, people are different - some invest themselves fully and completely in the mechanics of a game, others want to be able to dive right in and get tips and help on the fly as they play. The majority of new gamers fit the latter category - and whether we think that's a good thing or a bad thing, it's something that the devs might want to take into account.

    I played BG2 when I was 14 as well, but there were some real moments of sheer frustration that could have been avoided if I had better information/context. I'm not alone in wanting to see some ideas that would help provide that information to players in a more integrated way.

    @Mathsorcerer Your 10 year old understands THAC0, can calculate dexterity bonuses to AC, and can cast debuffing spells in the correct order to bring down the defenses of high-level mages? If so, that's great - but I've met adults on this very forum who have struggled with these concepts and they don't exactly strike me as dim-witted (if that comment seemed at all condescending, please don't take offense because it wasn't intentional - I was just trying to make a point).

    A lot of players aren't going to bother to come to this forum for help, and the game as it stands now doesn't exactly direct them helpfully to the manuals. I'd hate for casual gamers to put this game down in frustration as a result.
    HeindrichBelgarathMTH
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    In all seriousness, a search of this very forum shows lots of people have trouble with the mechanics. Heck, THAC0 by itself confuses an enormous amount of people all over the internet (because it's terrible and unintuitive). And this thread was started with a reviewer that couldn't grok the mechanics easily. I can add to that my spouse, a professional computer programmer with over a decade's experience, who finds several aspects of AD&D 2e mechanics bizarre and hard to fathom. I could add more.

    While the tutorial is great, a more robust introduction to how higher-level mechanics function in BGII would be very useful for the game (so would some other things, like explaining clearly what a 15 strength means when you roll it in character creation). Also something to get across those tidbits like "trolls won't die unless you use fire or acid on them".
    PurudayaBelgarathMTH
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    Purudaya said:

    @Mathsorcerer Your 10 year old understands THAC0, can calculate dexterity bonuses to AC, and can cast debuffing spells in the correct order to bring down the defenses of high-level mages? If so, that's great - but I've met adults on this very forum who have struggled with these concepts and they don't exactly strike me as dim-witted (if that comment seemed at all condescending, please don't take offense because it wasn't intentional - I was just trying to make a point).

    *laugh* I wish! No, they don't pay attention to figuring out details like that. I was commenting only that they know how to play the game--create characters, use items, cast spells, so on and so forth--but not the finer points. They aren't quite that subtle yet.

    I did introduce our son to scripting, though, and he wrote one that I let his character use. It doesn't do anything more than use potions if hurt and casts magic missile on things but he has to start somewhere.

    Games are meant for fun, of course, and so there has to be a balance between having everything spelled out for you on the screen--seriously, Fallout 3 doesn't need to have the Pip-Boy show me where the Super Duper Mart is, I can find it on my own thank you very much--and begin told to RTFM and figure it out for yourself. People who may be having a little difficulty getting used to the user interface or the look/feel of the game deserve our patience, not our derision.

    jackjack
  • zerckanzerckan Member Posts: 178
    Casual gamers can go to hell.
    Developers of many great games ruined their series for casual gamers sake.
    MungriGodKaiserHellGodmar
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    You sound like a lot of fun at parties, zerckan!

    Please note, nobody is asking them to change the rules of the game to be less unintuitive, simply to make them easier to understand in-game in unobstrusive ways.
    FinneousPJ
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Ayiekie I chuckled

    I don't see the problem with togglable hints or something like so many modern games have.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    zerckan said:

    Casual gamers can go to hell.
    Developers of many great games ruined their series for casual gamers sake.

    Attitudes like that actually hold the gaming industry back. What, if the fourth installment isn't just like the first one then it isn't any good? Games qualify as "good" only if they meet the exacting standards of a few select people?

    *shrug* Whatever. If you say so.

  • OcculusXOcculusX Member Posts: 99
    It would be pretty simple to compile a tutorial video explaining all of the interesting aspects of the 2nd Edition DND ruleset, and how to apply it to things in the game...

    1] Start with a Fighter.
    Explain how to equip stuff, how to look at stuff's properties. Then explain the mechanics of attacking with 1d20, and ThacO calculations with an explanation of AC (lower is better! No, really!! -10 is, like, godly). Proceed to explain what happens when rolling a natural 1 vs rolling a natural 20.

    Then spend a little bit of time describing the Saving Throw Calculation and Resistances, then you can use this as a good segway. Here's a goblin... I'm going to kill it before it kills me.

    2] Show them a thief.
    Explain how the different skills work. (Oh, yeah, you can backstab stuff for mondo damage!).

    3] Show them the priest and the wizard.
    Teach them some crowd control techniques.

    You could probably do all of this in like a 20 minute video.
    AkihikozerckanBelgarathMTHJuliusBorisov
  • zerckanzerckan Member Posts: 178
    edited November 2013

    zerckan said:

    Casual gamers can go to hell.
    Developers of many great games ruined their series for casual gamers sake.

    Attitudes like that actually hold the gaming industry back.
    I disagree.
    Making games cookie cutter so it appeals to wider range of ages and casuals to make more money is the reason that market is full of trash.

    Anyway, role play and lore is overrated, money from random casuals not.
    GodKaiserHellGodmar
  • OcculusXOcculusX Member Posts: 99
    @zerckan I fail to see how an optional to watch detailed video focusing on the game mechanics for the Second Edition ruleset would in any way diminish SoA.

    We all know games where the mechanics were designed to be kept stupid and simple enough to appeal to a general audience, but didn't have nearly enough meat to appeal to serious gamers.

    In general, isn't the market always filled with trash? This is the nature of markets. We may look at the music from the 80's through rose colored glasses, but that's because they play the real keepers of that era on the radio today. There was a lot of trash that existed that didn't last the test of time... anyone who appeals to the general audience without putting real meat into their creation will risk producing trash that cannot stand the test of time.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    I seriously cant believe the number of morons in this thread or in general that are trying to play this game.

    The manual is downloadable in PDF format. It has been for like the last decade. The thing is massive and would be far too expensive to print and ship to you if you merely buy a downloadable version of the game. But if you know enough about how to buy a downloadable version of the game, how can you not understand how to search for and download the manual?

    Also there are plenty of wikis and websites explaining how this games mechanics work without giving away spoilers. You don't understand thaco? How about googlng for it and reading it yourself? One great resource is a site called 'Mikes RPG place' which has a full compendium on just about everything in the game, and the only way to spoil it is if you purposefully click on the walkthrough section, but its not like you inferior brainless simians could possess the attention span or intellect to sit through and read such a detailed walkthrough in the first place, so you have no valid reason to complain.

    What exactly is wrong with you that you need every little thing explaining to you ingame when all you have to do is alt tab, or alt enter and minimize and click on your internet browser and look things up if you need to?

    Also from a role play perspective, do you honestly think that an adventurer in the forgotten realms studied and read a handbook about every single monster in the world of faerun? No, they went out there and adventured, and discovered such things for the first time, and gained valuable experience for each encounter they beat.

    This game has never been accessible to simians that severely lack any amount of mental capacity, and if you actually thing that the infinity engine could possibly handle an in gam compendium, you have likely been smoking things that hate further degraded your already none existent intelligence attribute.
    GodKaiserHellGodmar
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