I would absolutely hate for so many of these proposed ideas to be put into and completely ruin BG2EE. I am thinking clearly enough.
When that review was first posted, no one here or on the comments section of the review liked it. Now suddenly you all want to start changing the game just because one random person on the internet wrote a review which essentially read 'I found this game too hard, had no idea what to do, never played the first part nor read the manual, therefore 2/5'. Now you think the game should be changed to cater to such players. I oppose that.
It's not because of the review. The review got the discussion going, but the point is that the game can be made easier to pick up for new players without removing any of the challenge. You're acting like we want the game to have a built-in walkthrough when none of us are saying that.
@Heidrich1988 lol, you did get him eventually. Keeping Aerie barely alive, no less! That was good!!
For future reference, some properties regarding golems:
Golems:
100% Magic Resistance (also called MR on the forums). Mechanics are thus: 1. Spell is directed towards golem. 2. Spell makes contact with golem. 3. Probability of getting through tested with magic resistance (in this case 100%). 4. If spell gets through, then it does what it should normally.
How to beat it? 1. Cast "lower Resistance" to decrease it by roughly 20%. or 2. Cast "Magic Resistance" spell on golem to decrease it by roughly 75% (counter-intuitively). (I did this to one of my other characters at one point who had some MR, and it increased the probability of her getting hit by spells, therefore... if the logic works in reverse...)
Also I think you need at least +3 weapons to hit the golems.
This isn't even a serious thread. It cant be when it is based on the review on the link in the OP.
As for the actual topic of the thread, yes this game absolutely is 100% accessible to new players, and it has been for the last 14 or so years. No changes other than preserving the identical original gameplay need to be made. Any such proposed changes are entirely unnecessary and will be of benefit to absolutely no one.
One thing I suggest though, is making downloading the games manual compulsory before being allowed to download the game client. Also add a confirmation window which says:
'I undersand that in order to get best enjoyment from BGEE, I should play both games in chronological order, and read the manuals before playing the game as this will provide me with the best gameplay experience and understanding of the games core mechanics'.
Ugh... I am sorry for sinking to the level of mild trolling in my last comment. I just got a bit frustrated, and he kinda referred to me specifically.
Back to the actual discussion. I don't see how a bestiary, even if it was accessible before you met a particular enemy, and included detailed stats, are necessarily a spoiler. It's like saying in Civ 5 (I'm sorry if this analogy is lost on those who haven't played Civ games), 'you should not be able to see where a tech tree leads the first time you play the game, you must discover the techs and what they do one by one, with no chance to plan ahead the first time you play the game'.
Charname grew up in a Library! It is totally reasonable that he will have read about the many fantastic and deadly creatures of Faerun. In fact how much 'extra reading' a new player does can reflect how much reading his Charname has done. For example my Charname is supposed to be pretty well educated and very intelligent, travelling with hardened and experienced adventurers like Jaheira and Minsc. Yet I am unable to roleplay that properly because almost everything is new to me as a new player. What is so wrong about me perhaps reading up on Golems, Dragons and Liches as I played the game? It doesn't spoil the story, which is what matters. In fact it is kinda unrealistic that Jaheira doesn't know or doesn't bother telling Charname how to deal with a random Clay Golem, or the difference between a Druegar and a Svirfneblin.
The specific stats of characters and individuals (Sarevok, Aec'Letec etc) perhaps should not be available in a bestiary, but there is no reason why Candlekeep would not have a good selection of books about Golems, and why Charname wouldn't read them.
This isn't even a serious thread. It cant be when it is based on the review on the link in the OP.
As for the actual topic of the thread, yes this game absolutely is 100% accessible to new players, and it has been for the last 14 or so years. No changes other than preserving the identical original gameplay need to be made. Any such proposed changes are entirely unnecessary and will be of benefit to absolutely no one.
One thing I suggest though, is making downloading the games manual compulsory before being allowed to download the game client. Also add a confirmation window which says:
'I undersand that in order to get best enjoyment from BGEE, I should play both games in chronological order, and read the manuals before playing the game as this will provide me with the best gameplay experience and understanding of the games core mechanics'.
Hmm... that would be about as much fun for most people as reading through this:
This isn't even a serious thread. It cant be when it is based on the review on the link in the OP.
As for the actual topic of the thread, yes this game absolutely is 100% accessible to new players, and it has been for the last 14 or so years. No changes other than preserving the identical original gameplay need to be made. Any such proposed changes are entirely unnecessary and will be of benefit to absolutely no one.
One thing I suggest though, is making downloading the games manual compulsory before being allowed to download the game client. Also add a confirmation window which says:
'I undersand that in order to get best enjoyment from BGEE, I should play both games in chronological order, and read the manuals before playing the game as this will provide me with the best gameplay experience and understanding of the games core mechanics'.
The devs seem to disagree with you, as they have already expressed an interest in adding additional tutorial videos. We have said that any suggested features would be OPTIONAL. You are ignoring this point on purpose so you can continue to seek attention and prevent constructive discussion.
If the mods hadn't removed the abuse flag, you would be gone by now. You have invested an entire evening into this and all you've done is waste other people's time. From one forum member to another, please stop.
Its not logical that a new player would be, or should be as knowledgable as all the tomes contained within candlekeep.
Just like reading all those tomes didn't instantly raise charname to level 40, you still have to figure out each battle and gain experience from doing so.
'In order to kill a clay Golem, you need a magical blunt weapon'.
How is that not a spoiler to the player controlling charname, if they have yet not killed a clay golem? If that is not the information you want to provide then what is, and how would it be of any use?
Civ V is an entirely different game to BG2, you are given the tech tree and building lists as an in game manual. It helps you plan a strategy through the game and decide what to build. In BG2, you are meant to be adventuring and discovering things for yourself. Completely different games, completely different rules.
As for the reason why BG doesn't have an in game manual, please do point me towards any RPG that was released way back when BG was or before it that did have such a thing. I'm not even aware of any RPG today that features in game manuals.
I don't want to accidentally enable such tips in my game, or have them enabled by default and have to toggle them off.
If the information is already in the manual, why do you need it adding in game?
I proposed a far superior and much more valid suggestion of making it a requirement to download the manual before the manual before the game. Now heres a crazy idea, how about actually reading that manual while the game downloads?
Civ V is an entirely different game to BG2, you are given the tech tree and building lists as an in game manual. It helps you plan a strategy through the game and decide what to build. In BG2, you are meant to be adventuring and discovering things for yourself. Completely different games, completely different rules.
As for the reason why BG doesn't have an in game manual, please do point me towards any RPG that was released way back when BG was or before it that did have such a thing. I'm not even aware of any RPG today that features in game manuals.
Each of these had in game manuals: 1) Avernum 2) Nethack 3) ADOM 4) Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup
@Occulus Yep. Even just an in-game manual, accessible via options, would be better than the optional external downloads that some newbies might not even know about. I bet transcribing it would be a pain, but they could probably borrow infrastructure from another mechanic (journal, the how-to video section) to organize the content within the UI. Doesn't have to be fancy.
This game also has an ingame manual then. Its already present as tooltips over every item and spell in the game. Everything is so clearly explained in the game that you don't need to look it up elsewhere to understand it, however you simply have to discover the item or the spell before you can read it.
E.G. Description for Spell Thrust reads something like 'this spell dispels all spell defenses of level 4 and under'. Then if you see a mage that is covered in defensive auras and effects, you might think 'Hmmm, maybe I should cast spell thrust on that'. Its pretty simple.
I don't want to accidentally enable such tips in my game, or have them enabled by default and have to toggle them off.
If the information is already in the manual, why do you need it adding in game?
Why are you so invested in avoiding tips? As a supposedly "experienced" player, you should already know all these things and it's not going to spoil anything for you. Or do you suddenly care about newbies now?
Changing the game experience for new players is not necessary. As I said , this game already is 100% accessible to new players. Just being new to the game doesn't mean being as bad as the person that wrote that review, maybe 95% or more of players that are new to BG do not struggle to understand it.
Oh, I doubt it would be a setting that someone could accidentally toggle anyway if it's accessed through settings -> gameplay. That would be like accidentally toggling windowed mode or something...not exactly easy to do, especially not more than once.
I think even some of the more experienced players would appreciate an in-game manual. They could use it to check levelling tables when creating a character, brush up on HLAs if they haven't played in a while, etc. I imagine this would probably be the quickest solution to implement (although I know nothing about coding) and would be really useful to tablet players who might be offline and unable to download the manuals.
Just being new to the game doesn't mean being as bad as the person that wrote that review
There you go again, blaming the player for being "bad". I've done game design and one of the most important things to remember is that if the player doesn't understand or gets frustrated with the game, that's your fault, not the player's. Now, the BG team has a done a good job already and most players manage to figure things out, but there's still room for improvement and that's what these suggestions are about. I know you're trying to convince everyone what a great player you are with your elitist attitude but 1) no one's buying it and 2) even if you were, it doesn't matter here.
If you read what I wrote properly, you might realize I wasn't calling new players bad.
I was calling one bad player bad, that being the guy that wrote that review, and said that no one that actually plays this game for the first time is actually as bad as him, and don't need catering for because the game is already accessible enough to new players.
You're STILL here? Alright, forget it, you win. No productive conversation can happen in this thread while you're still spewing the same crap. We'll either need a new thread or a mod removal to actually discuss what might be useful UI improvements for new players.
I'd actually appreciate it if the mods weighed in on this. I know a lot of us started to bark back with some of our frustration, but the post spamming and often outright-trolling has been intentionally provocative (mobile players should print out the manuals? come on). If I were new to this thread, I wouldn't even bother posting - I'd just turn around and leave.
Which is a shame, because this discussion could have generated some good ideas. Should a single forum member be permitted to do this to a thread?
Making the game more accessible to new players =/= making the game super easy and not-fun to players who are used to the difficulty of the game. Arguing about it is stupid.
I definitely think it helps to have some game mechanic knowledge when beginning the game and creating characters because, let's be honest, the tips aren't actually all that helpful. Take your Dex score for example, you're told that a high score is a prime prerequisite for thieves, what you're not told is that a mediocre/low Dex score is of detriment to every other character class no matter what the fighting style. This is something a new player would never know, so they'd roll a few scores, tweak a few stats and think because they're not playing a thief maybe they'll take from Dex and put into Int or Str or Cha and then get hugely frustrated when their Charname misses more than they hit.
And then there's spell casting: which school is which? How does scaling work? What do the levels mean? Which combos are good? How do you effectively use X? How long does this effect last? (not nearly as long as you think, in my experience). etc. etc. etc...
Also, I wonder if new players have picked up the title because they played the console games. Games which are not only simpler to pick up on account of the platform they run on but also use a later and far more logical ruleset. I mean, I've made no secret of my love for the console games - despite the elitist attitude the seem to bring out in certain quarters of this forum - but compared to playing either of the PC games they're an absolute cakewalk to play, to the point where I've beaten them so many times I play them on extreme just for the challenge. FWIW I don't like the way the ruleset's implemented in those games because, unlike the PC games, pretty much any weapon / spell works against (almost) every monster you run across but they're still fun.
EDIT: Oh, those morons you're referring to @Mungri are part of the reason Overhaul have been able to continue their work. Just remember that before you throw around any more insults.
Actually, a bestiary would be a brilliant idea for the game. Pity is wasn't thought of (or wasn't feasible for whatever reason) to include at release.
Only because it is different from PS:T, and, well, it will need lots of coding those thousand kill variables, and the images of the bestiary, and a new GUI screen, and a...
Too much. Just maybe we can get a manual-like bestiary OUTSIDE the game, what could be easily done, and it will surely be the same.
Regarding making the game easier, I made a full crowd control / resistance lowering / mage defense stripping specced sorcerer with only a few crucial damage spells
And I said I was a cheesy man, but I do cheese, but without NI nor EEkeeper, just if you *know* how to play, you won't need that. I say I really *know* how to play, wanna *know* when I realized that THAC0 was better when lower? When I killed Sarevok in my second run. Now, I can say in BG2, no enemy could stand aside, the abuse of killing a dragon with THREE SPELLS, AND ONE OF THEM BEING PROTECTIVE, comes for what you've read in the game's spell descriptions (Cleric spell "Magic Resistance" sets the targets MR to a 2% per lvl of the caster, and it ignores MR and has no save, cast that on a Dragon, then cast the Cleric spell "Harm", hit the Dragon (you'll want to reload ) and use the Wizard spell "Magic Missile" on the Dragon. Firkraag couldn't complain I was a cheesy man, because he was DEAD, in less than two rounds.
I think I *knew* how Infinity Engine used EFF files to summon monsters before I *knew* that a lower THAC0 was better. And you won't wish to *know* how much XP my PC had after finishing BG1 TWICE! He had like 90k in the second run with the same character, and I started out with 9/15/12/17/13/13 M/T, and I thought Dual and Multi classes were the same, but, EVERYTHING COMES AT THE RIGHT TIME. And, yes, I *know* myself, thus, *knowing* the power I hold.
Infinity Engine games are not accessible to new players, because new players are bad at games. If it's not forcefed to them, they won't figure out the game mechanics and would run screaming from a 250+ page manual. Not only that, but the odds of a brand new player picking up BG2 and already having familiarity with 2nd edition AD&D rules are rather slim. Add the huge number of 'hidden' game mechanics (I swear to RNGesus, I just learned that liches couldn't be hit by level 1-5 spells a month ago), and fuhgeddaboudit.
That doesn't mean it's a bad game. SoA/ToB is still one of my top 2 or 3 favorite games of all time, and I've been playing video games since before they had cartridges. :P
Regardless of whether or not players should or shouldn't have to spend hours reading up on mechanics and muscling through the learning curve, this thread was created largely to address the problem of accessibility.
I'm pretty sure all of us want the game to do well, and therefore want new players to recommend it and review it well - but I also just want them to have a good time. We can lament the perception that gamers today are less willing to invest large amounts of time into learning the mechanics of a game, or we can try to mitigate that problem by making the mechanics easier to learn without dumbing the game down.
It's a thread for suggestions, not an argument over whether or not modern gamers are sufficiently capable or intelligent. For example: a couple posts up, someone suggested making it clearer during character creation that using dexterity as a dump stat would be detrimental to ALL classes, not just the thief. One might say, "well, they would've known that if they'd read the manuals!" - ok, but what if they didn't? Why not try and make important information available where relevant?
All other modern games do this. Some do it well, some don't; but I'd rather there be more options for new players than less.
Comments
For future reference, some properties regarding golems:
Golems:
100% Magic Resistance (also called MR on the forums).
Mechanics are thus:
1. Spell is directed towards golem.
2. Spell makes contact with golem.
3. Probability of getting through tested with magic resistance (in this case 100%).
4. If spell gets through, then it does what it should normally.
How to beat it?
1. Cast "lower Resistance" to decrease it by roughly 20%.
or
2. Cast "Magic Resistance" spell on golem to decrease it by roughly 75% (counter-intuitively).
(I did this to one of my other characters at one point who had some MR, and it increased the probability of her getting hit by spells, therefore... if the logic works in reverse...)
Also I think you need at least +3 weapons to hit the golems.
Also, if you need a list of monsters and their properties:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/faqs/27144
Just have fun. Get your money's worth out of the game, however you do it best.
As for the actual topic of the thread, yes this game absolutely is 100% accessible to new players, and it has been for the last 14 or so years. No changes other than preserving the identical original gameplay need to be made. Any such proposed changes are entirely unnecessary and will be of benefit to absolutely no one.
One thing I suggest though, is making downloading the games manual compulsory before being allowed to download the game client. Also add a confirmation window which says:
'I undersand that in order to get best enjoyment from BGEE, I should play both games in chronological order, and read the manuals before playing the game as this will provide me with the best gameplay experience and understanding of the games core mechanics'.
Back to the actual discussion. I don't see how a bestiary, even if it was accessible before you met a particular enemy, and included detailed stats, are necessarily a spoiler. It's like saying in Civ 5 (I'm sorry if this analogy is lost on those who haven't played Civ games), 'you should not be able to see where a tech tree leads the first time you play the game, you must discover the techs and what they do one by one, with no chance to plan ahead the first time you play the game'.
Charname grew up in a Library! It is totally reasonable that he will have read about the many fantastic and deadly creatures of Faerun. In fact how much 'extra reading' a new player does can reflect how much reading his Charname has done. For example my Charname is supposed to be pretty well educated and very intelligent, travelling with hardened and experienced adventurers like Jaheira and Minsc. Yet I am unable to roleplay that properly because almost everything is new to me as a new player. What is so wrong about me perhaps reading up on Golems, Dragons and Liches as I played the game? It doesn't spoil the story, which is what matters. In fact it is kinda unrealistic that Jaheira doesn't know or doesn't bother telling Charname how to deal with a random Clay Golem, or the difference between a Druegar and a Svirfneblin.
The specific stats of characters and individuals (Sarevok, Aec'Letec etc) perhaps should not be available in a bestiary, but there is no reason why Candlekeep would not have a good selection of books about Golems, and why Charname wouldn't read them.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35
I'll tell you, nothing gets me quite as excited as reading through USC 35. Mmm....
If the mods hadn't removed the abuse flag, you would be gone by now. You have invested an entire evening into this and all you've done is waste other people's time. From one forum member to another, please stop.
Just like reading all those tomes didn't instantly raise charname to level 40, you still have to figure out each battle and gain experience from doing so.
'In order to kill a clay Golem, you need a magical blunt weapon'.
How is that not a spoiler to the player controlling charname, if they have yet not killed a clay golem? If that is not the information you want to provide then what is, and how would it be of any use?
Civ V is an entirely different game to BG2, you are given the tech tree and building lists as an in game manual. It helps you plan a strategy through the game and decide what to build. In BG2, you are meant to be adventuring and discovering things for yourself. Completely different games, completely different rules.
As for the reason why BG doesn't have an in game manual, please do point me towards any RPG that was released way back when BG was or before it that did have such a thing. I'm not even aware of any RPG today that features in game manuals.
If the information is already in the manual, why do you need it adding in game?
I proposed a far superior and much more valid suggestion of making it a requirement to download the manual before the manual before the game. Now heres a crazy idea, how about actually reading that manual while the game downloads?
1) Avernum
2) Nethack
3) ADOM
4) Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup
E.G. Description for Spell Thrust reads something like 'this spell dispels all spell defenses of level 4 and under'. Then if you see a mage that is covered in defensive auras and effects, you might think 'Hmmm, maybe I should cast spell thrust on that'. Its pretty simple.
I think even some of the more experienced players would appreciate an in-game manual. They could use it to check levelling tables when creating a character, brush up on HLAs if they haven't played in a while, etc. I imagine this would probably be the quickest solution to implement (although I know nothing about coding) and would be really useful to tablet players who might be offline and unable to download the manuals.
I was calling one bad player bad, that being the guy that wrote that review, and said that no one that actually plays this game for the first time is actually as bad as him, and don't need catering for because the game is already accessible enough to new players.
Which is a shame, because this discussion could have generated some good ideas. Should a single forum member be permitted to do this to a thread?
And then there's spell casting: which school is which? How does scaling work? What do the levels mean? Which combos are good? How do you effectively use X? How long does this effect last? (not nearly as long as you think, in my experience). etc. etc. etc...
Also, I wonder if new players have picked up the title because they played the console games. Games which are not only simpler to pick up on account of the platform they run on but also use a later and far more logical ruleset. I mean, I've made no secret of my love for the console games - despite the elitist attitude the seem to bring out in certain quarters of this forum - but compared to playing either of the PC games they're an absolute cakewalk to play, to the point where I've beaten them so many times I play them on extreme just for the challenge. FWIW I don't like the way the ruleset's implemented in those games because, unlike the PC games, pretty much any weapon / spell works against (almost) every monster you run across but they're still fun.
EDIT: Oh, those morons you're referring to @Mungri are part of the reason Overhaul have been able to continue their work. Just remember that before you throw around any more insults.
Too much.
Just maybe we can get a manual-like bestiary OUTSIDE the game, what could be easily done, and it will surely be the same.
I say I really *know* how to play, wanna *know* when I realized that THAC0 was better when lower? When I killed Sarevok in my second run. Now, I can say in BG2, no enemy could stand aside, the abuse of killing a dragon with THREE SPELLS, AND ONE OF THEM BEING PROTECTIVE, comes for what you've read in the game's spell descriptions (Cleric spell "Magic Resistance" sets the targets MR to a 2% per lvl of the caster, and it ignores MR and has no save, cast that on a Dragon, then cast the Cleric spell "Harm", hit the Dragon (you'll want to reload
I think I *knew* how Infinity Engine used EFF files to summon monsters before I *knew* that a lower THAC0 was better. And you won't wish to *know* how much XP my PC had after finishing BG1 TWICE! He had like 90k in the second run with the same character, and I started out with 9/15/12/17/13/13 M/T, and I thought Dual and Multi classes were the same, but, EVERYTHING COMES AT THE RIGHT TIME. And, yes, I *know* myself, thus, *knowing* the power I hold. And, it took me ages to realize that, and the worst thing is that I read the manual more than once, even before playing the game :P
That doesn't mean it's a bad game. SoA/ToB is still one of my top 2 or 3 favorite games of all time, and I've been playing video games since before they had cartridges. :P
I'm pretty sure all of us want the game to do well, and therefore want new players to recommend it and review it well - but I also just want them to have a good time. We can lament the perception that gamers today are less willing to invest large amounts of time into learning the mechanics of a game, or we can try to mitigate that problem by making the mechanics easier to learn without dumbing the game down.
It's a thread for suggestions, not an argument over whether or not modern gamers are sufficiently capable or intelligent. For example: a couple posts up, someone suggested making it clearer during character creation that using dexterity as a dump stat would be detrimental to ALL classes, not just the thief. One might say, "well, they would've known that if they'd read the manuals!" - ok, but what if they didn't? Why not try and make important information available where relevant?
All other modern games do this. Some do it well, some don't; but I'd rather there be more options for new players than less.