Imoen was meant to die in BG2, Nalia was to be her replacement... as a "I'm not as cool as your sister, but here, have a cookie" Due to fans loving Imoen, Bioware reconsidered Imoen disappearing, hence the reason why we can recover Imoen in SpellHold.... and Imoen having close to zero banters with your party in SoA.
Problem is, they also kept Nalia.
Wish they reconsidered Nalia and turned her into something else than an "inferior Imoen clone", like, say, a Sorcerer or a bard.
Imoen was a better thief in a game where the simple ability to open locks and disarm traps was a hot commodity. They might be equal mages, but we have to remember that basic thieving skills were really hard to come by.
Yeah, my personal opinion, for the jack squat that its worth is, Nalia is a mage who can use a shortbow, not really a mage/thief, four levels just isn't enough as many people have said, however taking her into consideration from a mage point of view she's pretty good, clearly there can be no match for Edwin and his amulet of wish i could steal that for myself, but Nalia isn't a bad mage, sure now we have Neera in her generally entertaining capacity as a specialist mage who occasionally blows herself up or turns you into a rabid squirrel, and thus Nalia is demoted yet again, still i would place her above Jan as she just reaches those higher level spells so much faster, and from the mage perspective shes every bit an imoen match, but yes i agree with the consensus, Imoen is your sister, but then by the same token i can't not take a certain other sibling along (a large, sword swinging slightly psychotic sibling), just because hey, they're family (albeit a fairly disfunctional one). Randomness aside, i think Nalia works just fine as a mage, but hey i needed a caster for chapter 2 and 3 and kinda just let her hang about afterwards on a few runs through the game, and i guess softened on the silver spooned activist
TBH all they had to do to make Nalia valid was remove her pick pocket points, and redistribute her thieve skills to have 75 each in open locks and detect traps.
Even a single extra rogue level to level 5 and 100 / 75 traps / locks. That way with the +25 rings, she can at least get all the traps / locks, but would have to swap the rings due to her unique ring taking up a slot.
I did customise her once to 5 swashbuckler / mage with 100 / 75 and she made a capable thief without needing potions, but her base skills are just useless.
It would have been better if Nalia was the better thief. you might still bring Imoen along simply because she is Imoen the cannon NPC. Everytime I reach spellhold with Nalia I just wan't Imoen to come along instead
Her base stats are better than Imoen's. She has better strength (although carrying capacity may or may not be as useful), same dexterity, and 16 constitution gives exactly the same bonuses as 18 constitution for non-warriors. Intelligence is the same. Wisdom is useless (except for wish, but Imoen's wisdom isn't good enough either). Charisma is useless with the ring that sets your charisma to 18. Winner: Nalia, but only barely
Imoen gets minor Bhaalspawn powers in TOB, making her constitution and strength better as a special ability. Plus the one HUGE trap in TOB is impossible to disarm with Nalia.
You'd have to go back to the Pocket Plane to pick up Imoen and Jan to disarm it.
TBH all they had to do to make Nalia valid was remove her pick pocket points, and redistribute her thieve skills to have 75 each in open locks and detect traps.
Even a single extra rogue level to level 5 and 100 / 75 traps / locks. That way with the +25 rings, she can at least get all the traps / locks, but would have to swap the rings due to her unique ring taking up a slot.
I did customise her once to 5 swashbuckler / mage with 100 / 75 and she made a capable thief without needing potions, but her base skills are just useless.
Yeah... but by that logic we might as well shadowkeeper Imoen into Melissan and call it a day!
She's worth keeping around for a while especially when you temporarily lose Jan, but once you get him back there is no reason to keep her. Do her quest, then drop. Pick up again as needed. Jan is just better as a thief/mage. If charname is a mage and you have Aerie, you don't need her.
I have no issues whatsoever with Nalia. With that said, I do typically drop her for Imoen when the opportunity arises, but this has nothing to do with Nalia being inferior or annoying and everything to do with the fact that (a) the entire focus of my character for the first half of SoA is to get Imoen back, so taken her back is kind of a given for me, and (b) there's a limit to party size and I really don't need two thief-turned-mages in most games.
Is Nalia a bit annoying? No more than most other NPCs in my opinion. Almost all of them have at least one thing they keep saying or doing that annoys me, so its a wash. Is she inferior to Imoen as a thief? Yes, but she can handle 90% of the game fine and the other 10% with just a bit of help. It's hardly a game-changing issue. Seriously, the only problem with Nalia is that it eventually boils down to either her or the half-sister I've been trying to rescue all along, and that's really not a contest. Which is a pity, really. With just a bit more work, Nalia could actually have been an outstanding character, with plenty of potential in her background. And honestly, it would have been kind of neat if they had made her a "reverse Imoen" instead of an Imoen clone -- ie either a mage with the stats to dual to thief if you want, or a mage that already dualed to thief at 7th, or even just a full thief since BG2 was seriously lacking a full thief that could make most of the run with you until EE came along, and is still lacking for good parties for that matter.
Meh. She's basically just a mage who can use shortbows and...well other thief weapons, but no real thief skills to back it up. On top of that she's kind of... Naive? Dense?
I mean when I first heard her speech of how she was a benevolent person reaching out to the commoners... but said "I've helped your kind" in her first line of speech... I kind of just not cared for her at all. She's not a bad person, per se, but she doesn't think when she opens her mouth.
I think she's getting a lot of flame just because she takes initiative with her, not utterly perfect, but still good ideals. Aerie wouldn't have the guts to do any significant good, to even leave the circus, without charname to lead her, and Minsc needs directing. Imoen also doesn't strike me as someone of passionate ideals, same with Valygar. Mazzy and Keldorn might be more balanced-minded good characters though.
All in all, I'd say Nalia still makes the world a better place than most other good-aligned characters would if left to their own devices.
Can people expand a bit on the "Imoen was supposed to die" bit? Any more details there? Kind of funny: Wasn't supposed to exist in the first place, wasn't supposed to live in the second game, became one of the most loved and important characters in the series.
I like Nalia. She's naive, for sure, but that's one of the things that makes her such a good character. She really WANTS to help people, but she's lived a privileged life and (from what I gather), she's pretty young. I wish they had differentiated her a bit more from Imoen (ie. starter class Fighter) or improved her thief skills so they're useful (instead of just essentially giving her the ability to use a shortbow). Her battle cry is pretty annoying (but a lot of characters have an annoying battle cry), but her crit makes me smile.
I've read a few times that there are hints that maybe Nalia was supposed to have some kind of storyline where she would ultimately become a lich. Has anyone heard this? Any details on that? Always been curious, but can never find any info.
@rdarken You are leading into a point that I am very eager to make, so I'm glad particularly for the first part of what you have just said:
To say that Nalia's purpose was to replace Imoen is reductive and redundant when you think about it. If Imoen was going to be killed off as a joinable NPC right after Chateau Irenicus, then the player would actually have had very little time to acclimatise themselves to the idea that Imoen is a mage. Remember, hindsight is a lovely thing, but before the release of BG2, Imoen was a pure class thief and no doubt many players kept her that way. So by the time we learn that she is a Mage, originally it really wouldn't have mattered much and she just would have been killed off an hour later. The only reason she is a Mage (presumably) was so that the Spellhold-Capture-Pursuit plotline would work. Due to popularity, the developers then decided to keep Imoen alive, though this had not been their original intention. So where does this leave Nalia? Well, that means that Nalia was actually the ORIGINAL thief/mage dual-class NPC for BG2. Additionally, her personality is by no means an echo of Imoen's, and she is much more nuanced and tricky to pin down with her perspective of the world and what it means to do 'good deeds'. I'll never be able to convince the community of Nalia's awesomeness, and that's totally fine with me. But if you please do take the time to read this defence of her character alone, I can at least believe with full confidence that you will no longer use the marginalising argument that the game developers had only intended for Nalia to bridge the lack of a thief/mage in the party until Imoen's return.
@rdarken You are leading into a point that I am very eager to make, so I'm glad particularly for the first part of what you have just said:
To say that Nalia's purpose was to replace Imoen is reductive and redundant when you think about it. If Imoen was going to be killed off as a joinable NPC right after Chateau Irenicus, then the player would actually have had very little time to acclimatise themselves to the idea that Imoen is a mage. Remember, hindsight is a lovely thing, but before the release of BG2, Imoen was a pure class thief and no doubt many players kept her that way. So by the time we learn that she is a Mage, originally it really wouldn't have mattered much and she just would have been killed off an hour later. The only reason she is a Mage (presumably) was so that the Spellhold-Capture-Pursuit plotline would work. Due to popularity, the developers then decided to keep Imoen alive, though this had not been their original intention. So where does this leave Nalia? Well, that means that Nalia was actually the ORIGINAL thief/mage dual-class NPC for BG2. Additionally, her personality is by no means an echo of Imoen's, and she is much more nuanced and tricky to pin down with her perspective of the world and what it means to do 'good deeds'. I'll never be able to convince the community of Nalia's awesomeness, and that's totally fine with me. But if you please do take the time to read this defence of her character alone, I can at least believe with full confidence that you will no longer use the marginalising argument that the game developers had only intended for Nalia to bridge the lack of a thief/mage in the party until Imoen's return.
/rant off
Thanks for reading.
Imoen has always been a big candidate for multiclassing in Vanilla BG, hence why her canon "class" is thief dualed to mage. I don't think there's any "just for the story" shenanigans, otherwise they'd have gone with another story.
And... yeah, Nalia was the original thief mage considered to be part of charname saga, but, well, too bad, she sucks so bad that a character that was meant to be scrapped is in every way better than her
I think Imoen was supposed to die in chapter 4 or 5, unable to resist "what fills the void" after her soul is gone. Probably she'd even turn into the Slayer and charname would have to put her down and send her off to non-existence. I can't contest that it would be a heartbreaking scene.
Can I just point out that you wrote an introduction to a defence of her character without actually writing a defence of her character?
I don't think anyone believes that Nalia was intended as a stop-gap between Imoens. If anything I think most people agree with you, and the complaint is that with Imoen's survival (which itself has an odd relationship with Yoshimo: was his redemption removed before or after it was decided Imoen would live?) a stop-gap is what Nalia became. By having Imoen stay alive post-Spellhold, the original Thief/Mage was made mechanically inferior and therefore redundant from a gameplay perspective. Judging by the fact Imoen has no banters before ToB, this was probably a late change which also meant they couldn't change Nalia in order to differentiate her (for example, by making her a sorceress geared towards utility and cried control, with spells like invisibility, knock, find traps, etc).
Mazzy and Keldorn might be more balanced-minded good characters though.
First time I see the use of "balance-minded" adjective to discribe paladins, you made me chuckle
Yeah, I know, hehe. But like Nalia (and Minsc) they both take initiative to do good, yet without... mmm... I don't know, I keep thinking of how Keldorn has the patience to discuss with Nalia's aunt. Even if they are as lacking in nuanced views, they are less hot-tempered.
I think that problem of Nalia is Imoen. I just like her more (after all she is my sister). There is nothing wrong with Nalia, she is nice person with interesting background. But from the gaming perspective she is the exact copy of Imoen. Of course it is possible to have her and Imoen in the same group, but I prefer more variety than having two exactly same classes in the group. And if I don´t care about Imoen I´am playing evil character, who probably also don´t care about Nalia. Also if I´am not mistaken the mod, which adds romance with Nalia, hasn´t function ToB part.
Now that we have Hexxat and Neera, Imoen and Nalia both have lost some value. In fact, I took Yoshimo to spellhold with Hexxat. Imoen will be redundant in my group of Hex and Edwin. As soon as I make it back to Amn, I will be booting Imoen.
i like nalia's character its a flawed character, she wants to do good but instead of fighting monsters in the wilderness to reduce the chance of them eating people.
i believe she thinks that "i know ive helped them if they thank me" she is after the thanks of the masses because she seems to think that's the only way -she- knows she is helping, im not calling her shallow or anything it just fits with the sheltered and privileged life, she was taught a nobles manners to thank someone after any kind of help regardless if it was actually helpful. this is why she is confused when im killing undead in a dungeon, no one thanks you for it and as such nalia doesn't think that this is helping people when in truth it is but indirectly, which nalia doesn't see.
this makes her personality no perfect, quite real and thus likeable....in my opinion at least. the thing that annoys me is that CHARNAME cannot explain how they are helping people so she keeps complaining about us not helping directly
All in all, I'd say Nalia still makes the world a better place than most other good-aligned characters would if left to their own devices.
Nalia just starts off in a much better position where she can do good than the others, with actual wealth and resources to back her up. It's not at all comparable to someone like Aerie, who starts with absolutely nothing and is still pretty much an alien in Amn with no knowledge of where to go or how to get started. But characters like she and Imoen are less interested in changing society as a whole (although Aerie obviously has a big beef with slavers that she will wage war on once she has the power and experience to do it. And clowns. She hates clowns. It's difficult to decide which one is worse), and just focus more on helping those around them.
They're just different characters with different perspectives; not morally better or worse in any way at all. Or better or worse in other way really. They just have to grow in different ways.
@rdarken You are leading into a point that I am very eager to make, so I'm glad particularly for the first part of what you have just said:
To say that Nalia's purpose was to replace Imoen is reductive and redundant when you think about it. If Imoen was going to be killed off as a joinable NPC right after Chateau Irenicus, then the player would actually have had very little time to acclimatise themselves to the idea that Imoen is a mage. Remember, hindsight is a lovely thing, but before the release of BG2, Imoen was a pure class thief and no doubt many players kept her that way. So by the time we learn that she is a Mage, originally it really wouldn't have mattered much and she just would have been killed off an hour later. The only reason she is a Mage (presumably) was so that the Spellhold-Capture-Pursuit plotline would work. Due to popularity, the developers then decided to keep Imoen alive, though this had not been their original intention. So where does this leave Nalia? Well, that means that Nalia was actually the ORIGINAL thief/mage dual-class NPC for BG2. Additionally, her personality is by no means an echo of Imoen's, and she is much more nuanced and tricky to pin down with her perspective of the world and what it means to do 'good deeds'. I'll never be able to convince the community of Nalia's awesomeness, and that's totally fine with me. But if you please do take the time to read this defence of her character alone, I can at least believe with full confidence that you will no longer use the marginalising argument that the game developers had only intended for Nalia to bridge the lack of a thief/mage in the party until Imoen's return.
/rant off
Thanks for reading.
Imoen has always been a big candidate for multiclassing in Vanilla BG, hence why her canon "class" is thief dualed to mage. I don't think there's any "just for the story" shenanigans, otherwise they'd have gone with another story.
And... yeah, Nalia was the original thief mage considered to be part of charname saga, but, well, too bad, she sucks so bad that a character that was meant to be scrapped is in every way better than her
I always felt like Imoen becoming a Thief/Mage was a nod to the community. I remember reading on the GameFAQ message boards about her having 17 int, making her a perfect candidate for dualing. I had never considered it and it the person wrote it like "Of course we're supposed to dual her!" (Not in a condescending way.)
I think Imoen was supposed to die in chapter 4 or 5, unable to resist "what fills the void" after her soul is gone. Probably she'd even turn into the Slayer and charname would have to put her down and send her off to non-existence. I can't contest that it would be a heartbreaking scene.
hmmm... perhaps a "Left-libertarian" a la Noam Chomsky, but I don't think she comes from the Rothbardian perspective, the classical liberalism perspective and DEFINITELY not the Ayn Rand faux-libertarian Objectivist perspective.
@enqenq I'm not contesting that Imoen's death would have been very effective, I'm merely pointing out that it was supposed to happen. I'm not sure how, or when, but Imoen's last minute inclusion comes as a disadvantage to Nalia from a class and build standpoint, undeniably. The point is more that it should not reduce the developers original intention that Nalia was the character to fill that role, not Imoen. She isn't an intentionally compromised artistic product. @Eudaemonium I was referring to her as a character - as legitimate and meaningful game content - not 'character' as in her personality. I'm objecting to the overly-simplistic dismissal of Nalia as 'the developers short-term solution to losing Imoen' by making clear that she was created at a time when Imoen was for all intents and purposes as temporary as Yoshimo then became.
Now that we have Hexxat and Neera, Imoen and Nalia both have lost some value. In fact, I took Yoshimo to spellhold with Hexxat. Imoen will be redundant in my group of Hex and Edwin. As soon as I make it back to Amn, I will be booting Imoen.
Unless you are concerned with quality writing. Hexxat is mechanically a joy, but is in my opinion a very poorly written character who relies on her race and class to have any kind of validity. Nalia is a much more nuanced critique of morality, naivety and intention, especially when you get to Throne of Bhaal and her personality seems to be turning in a troublingly cynical and Edwin-y direction! Every has their own preferences in writing of course, but from my point of view I find that Nalia has the most intellectual writing among the good-aligned female characters, with Mazzy coming in second. Aerie is painfully simplistic, overly-virginal and virtuous and for that reason much more irritating to be around than Nalia, I believe, because there is no substance to her writing.
Just my opinions, though, and I'm only trying to generate further discussion as I find this to be as especially interesting topic when it comes to the NPCs of BG. I'm not trying to troll, if people are beginning to get that impression from my perpetual commenting! :P
Back in the day when I had a constant game of bg2 going on, I stopped using her and started having a second PC because I didn't feel she brought anything to the table, apart from being an Imoen light. I had a fighter dualed to sorcerer with a crossbow spec instead... good times.
Comments
Due to fans loving Imoen, Bioware reconsidered Imoen disappearing, hence the reason why we can recover Imoen in SpellHold.... and Imoen having close to zero banters with your party in SoA.
Problem is, they also kept Nalia.
Wish they reconsidered Nalia and turned her into something else than an "inferior Imoen clone", like, say, a Sorcerer or a bard.
Randomness aside, i think Nalia works just fine as a mage, but hey i needed a caster for chapter 2 and 3 and kinda just let her hang about afterwards on a few runs through the game, and i guess softened on the silver spooned activist
Even a single extra rogue level to level 5 and 100 / 75 traps / locks. That way with the +25 rings, she can at least get all the traps / locks, but would have to swap the rings due to her unique ring taking up a slot.
I did customise her once to 5 swashbuckler / mage with 100 / 75 and she made a capable thief without needing potions, but her base skills are just useless.
you might still bring Imoen along simply because she is Imoen the cannon NPC.
Everytime I reach spellhold with Nalia I just wan't Imoen to come along instead
You'd have to go back to the Pocket Plane to pick up Imoen and Jan to disarm it.
Is Nalia a bit annoying? No more than most other NPCs in my opinion. Almost all of them have at least one thing they keep saying or doing that annoys me, so its a wash. Is she inferior to Imoen as a thief? Yes, but she can handle 90% of the game fine and the other 10% with just a bit of help. It's hardly a game-changing issue. Seriously, the only problem with Nalia is that it eventually boils down to either her or the half-sister I've been trying to rescue all along, and that's really not a contest. Which is a pity, really. With just a bit more work, Nalia could actually have been an outstanding character, with plenty of potential in her background. And honestly, it would have been kind of neat if they had made her a "reverse Imoen" instead of an Imoen clone -- ie either a mage with the stats to dual to thief if you want, or a mage that already dualed to thief at 7th, or even just a full thief since BG2 was seriously lacking a full thief that could make most of the run with you until EE came along, and is still lacking for good parties for that matter.
I mean when I first heard her speech of how she was a benevolent person reaching out to the commoners... but said "I've helped your kind" in her first line of speech... I kind of just not cared for her at all. She's not a bad person, per se, but she doesn't think when she opens her mouth.
All in all, I'd say Nalia still makes the world a better place than most other good-aligned characters would if left to their own devices.
I like Nalia. She's naive, for sure, but that's one of the things that makes her such a good character. She really WANTS to help people, but she's lived a privileged life and (from what I gather), she's pretty young. I wish they had differentiated her a bit more from Imoen (ie. starter class Fighter) or improved her thief skills so they're useful (instead of just essentially giving her the ability to use a shortbow). Her battle cry is pretty annoying (but a lot of characters have an annoying battle cry), but her crit makes me smile.
I've read a few times that there are hints that maybe Nalia was supposed to have some kind of storyline where she would ultimately become a lich. Has anyone heard this? Any details on that? Always been curious, but can never find any info.
To say that Nalia's purpose was to replace Imoen is reductive and redundant when you think about it. If Imoen was going to be killed off as a joinable NPC right after Chateau Irenicus, then the player would actually have had very little time to acclimatise themselves to the idea that Imoen is a mage. Remember, hindsight is a lovely thing, but before the release of BG2, Imoen was a pure class thief and no doubt many players kept her that way. So by the time we learn that she is a Mage, originally it really wouldn't have mattered much and she just would have been killed off an hour later. The only reason she is a Mage (presumably) was so that the Spellhold-Capture-Pursuit plotline would work. Due to popularity, the developers then decided to keep Imoen alive, though this had not been their original intention.
So where does this leave Nalia? Well, that means that Nalia was actually the ORIGINAL thief/mage dual-class NPC for BG2. Additionally, her personality is by no means an echo of Imoen's, and she is much more nuanced and tricky to pin down with her perspective of the world and what it means to do 'good deeds'. I'll never be able to convince the community of Nalia's awesomeness, and that's totally fine with me. But if you please do take the time to read this defence of her character alone, I can at least believe with full confidence that you will no longer use the marginalising argument that the game developers had only intended for Nalia to bridge the lack of a thief/mage in the party until Imoen's return.
/rant off
Thanks for reading.
And... yeah, Nalia was the original thief mage considered to be part of charname saga, but, well, too bad, she sucks so bad that a character that was meant to be scrapped is in every way better than her
I think Imoen was supposed to die in chapter 4 or 5, unable to resist "what fills the void" after her soul is gone. Probably she'd even turn into the Slayer and charname would have to put her down and send her off to non-existence. I can't contest that it would be a heartbreaking scene.
I don't think anyone believes that Nalia was intended as a stop-gap between Imoens. If anything I think most people agree with you, and the complaint is that with Imoen's survival (which itself has an odd relationship with Yoshimo: was his redemption removed before or after it was decided Imoen would live?) a stop-gap is what Nalia became. By having Imoen stay alive post-Spellhold, the original Thief/Mage was made mechanically inferior and therefore redundant from a gameplay perspective. Judging by the fact Imoen has no banters before ToB, this was probably a late change which also meant they couldn't change Nalia in order to differentiate her (for example, by making her a sorceress geared towards utility and cried control, with spells like invisibility, knock, find traps, etc).
In fact, I took Yoshimo to spellhold with Hexxat. Imoen will be redundant in my group of Hex and Edwin. As soon as I make it back to Amn, I will be booting Imoen.
i believe she thinks that "i know ive helped them if they thank me" she is after the thanks of the masses because she seems to think that's the only way -she- knows she is helping, im not calling her shallow or anything it just fits with the sheltered and privileged life, she was taught a nobles manners to thank someone after any kind of help regardless if it was actually helpful. this is why she is confused when im killing undead in a dungeon, no one thanks you for it and as such nalia doesn't think that this is helping people when in truth it is but indirectly, which nalia doesn't see.
this makes her personality no perfect, quite real and thus likeable....in my opinion at least. the thing that annoys me is that CHARNAME cannot explain how they are helping people so she keeps complaining about us not helping directly
They're just different characters with different perspectives; not morally better or worse in any way at all. Or better or worse in other way really. They just have to grow in different ways.
boo says: whaaaaa????
hmmm... perhaps a "Left-libertarian" a la Noam Chomsky, but I don't think she comes from the Rothbardian perspective, the classical liberalism perspective and DEFINITELY not the Ayn Rand faux-libertarian Objectivist perspective.
@Eudaemonium I was referring to her as a character - as legitimate and meaningful game content - not 'character' as in her personality. I'm objecting to the overly-simplistic dismissal of Nalia as 'the developers short-term solution to losing Imoen' by making clear that she was created at a time when Imoen was for all intents and purposes as temporary as Yoshimo then became.
Just my opinions, though, and I'm only trying to generate further discussion as I find this to be as especially interesting topic when it comes to the NPCs of BG. I'm not trying to troll, if people are beginning to get that impression from my perpetual commenting! :P
Back in the day when I had a constant game of bg2 going on, I stopped using her and started having a second PC because I didn't feel she brought anything to the table, apart from being an Imoen light. I had a fighter dualed to sorcerer with a crossbow spec instead... good times.