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A Short Review of SCS v27 for BGEE

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  • CastorpCastorp Member Posts: 45
    edited November 2013
    @OperativeNL

    That's strange, because in my game, Tarnesh started the fight by making my whole party sleep, which is much more deadly than horror at low level. Then he magic missiled it to death and finished the remaining characters with his staff, which makes sense if they're sleeping.

    And Nimbul, even if I don't remember precisely what happened, clearly didn't try to backstab characters wearing heavy armors... The fight was quite challenging, clearly more than in the original game.

    JuliusBorisov
  • OperativeNLOperativeNL Member Posts: 146
    Tisamon said:

    @OperativeNL

    Of course, I cannot influence your decision directly, but I humbly suggest you ignore athak. As far as I can tell, it's a troll. Don't feed him. He's not interested in a constructive discussion, he's interested in provoking and harassing you. Let's hope sooner or later he makes a mistake (direct insult) serious enough to warrant a forum ban.

    To be honest when I posted my first comment I hadn't taken the time to read the discussion that went on before. Now I did and I am sorry for it. I stand by the point that I made in that first comment - low level mages with SCS installed are still easy to beat, though admittedly they are less predictable than vanilla. For which I thank whomever made it because it makes this little game a fair bit more fun. Other than that, I disagree with you on almost every point you've made in this thread of yours. You metagamed and now you blame this mod, because you still had an easy time.

    Also the fact that you are thanking me so much for apparently agreeing with you I find a bit strange, I mean what is this, some kind of quest to get your right? Are we supposed to pick sides here and sharpen our swords for an internet fight? And I mean this towards most you other guys too by the way. This thread seems to be full of trolls and fanboys with too much time on their hands.

    Actually, I am just going to stop replying to threads such as this. Because it feels quite pointless to spend my time reading personal attacks and arguments about whether or not the realism is good enough in a game about an imaginary world that lets me pretend to be a half-elven fighter thief shooting a magical crossbow. I think my time is better spent in the real world out there.

    *sigh* I'm getting too old for this...

    Castorptypo_tilly
  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 758

    low level mages with SCS installed are still easy to beat, though admittedly they are less predictable than vanilla.

    That's been interesting feedback. I think there are two things going on (not all of which apply to all games):
    (i) SCS mage AI on BG1 is probably optimised under the assumption that prebuffing is installed. Non-prebuffed low-level mages probably worry too much about their defences.
    (ii) SCS randomizes spell choices. The algorithm is moderately complicated and tries to avoid weak choices but it doesn't always succeed. (I think this is a price worth paying for variation.)

    For which I thank whomever made it because it makes this little game a fair bit more fun.
    You're welcome.

  • athakathak Member Posts: 31
    @Castrop

    This is exactly what happens in my game as well. Rather than using an easy to resist spell, he uses a more powerful disable with little chance of it failing, and so very few options to be immune to it. In the original, he would never kill if you survived magic missiles you since he couldn't get into range to hit you with his staff while you ran frightened.
    Nimbul clearly isn't bugged, the fact the he wants to backstab Dorn makes perfect sense - he can't find a target with worse AC, given that the alternative is probably an 18/00 strenght; 18 DEX; 18 CON Blackguard which just proves the point that "smarter targeting" works as intended.
    Low-level solo mages just can't; under any circumstance, stand a chance against a full party in this game - they lack the spells to do it.

    If you want to see the real difficulty and mod enhancements of scs, my suggestion would be to disregard this thread completely, since most players will never play in this way; not that much different from CTRL-Ying everything and saying "mod fails with smarter AI", and instead, enjoy reading CKT's No-Reload attempt at Bioware's No-Reload forum, which is incredible.
    Admittedly, both Davaeorn and Sarevok battles have bugs. :)


  • CastorpCastorp Member Posts: 45
    @athak

    I really don't think that's what @OperativeNL was saying.
    You should read his contribution a little bit more carefully.

  • TisamonTisamon Member Posts: 209


    Also the fact that you are thanking me so much for apparently agreeing with you I find a bit strange

    I don't see anything strange about thanking you for expressing your own position that opposes the consensus reflected in this thread. No, that doesn't make you a better person, and I don't think you are an angel of light just because you happen to agree with me -- don't flatter yourself. But intellectual honesty is a rare enough quality in people.

  • athakathak Member Posts: 31
    @Castrop
    I didn't even see the contribution before I started to post - I was replying to your post about Tarnesh and Nimbul; which was the last post at the time.

  • CastorpCastorp Member Posts: 45
    edited November 2013
    I was talking about OperativeNL's first comment in which he didn't mention any metagaming, simply a behavior of the AI that didn't satisfy him. Which, to me, is constructive and helpful criticism.

  • athakathak Member Posts: 31
    Another psychic reading my mind...sigh.
    He seems dissapointed with low-level mages, I say that low-level mages are very limited with options and there's very little what they can do within the rules. He says that backstab on Dorn isn't the best possible behaviour, I say that it's rather optimal given the alternative.
    AI doesn't satisfy his thirst for challenge: fair enough, even if I would disagree, which I don't. If you find mages such weaklings, solution to buff their levels is a valid choice.
    Would Tarnesh at level 11 satisfy everyone's needs?

  • CastorpCastorp Member Posts: 45
    edited November 2013
    athak said:

    the fact the he wants to backstab Dorn makes perfect sense - he can't find a target with worse AC, given that the alternative is probably an 18/00 strenght; 18 DEX; 18 CON Blackguard which just proves the point that "smarter targeting" works as intended.

    That's an assumption and an attack on OperativeNL's post that was not justified by what he wrote.
    Did he specify who was in his party? I don't think so.

    Maybe he had mages with crappy AC and maybe Nimbul didn't target them, which wouldn't be a logical behavior.

    All I'm saying is that you're unnecessarily bellicose when there is absolutely no reason to be.

  • athakathak Member Posts: 31
    Castorp said:

    athak said:

    the fact the he wants to backstab Dorn makes perfect sense - he can't find a target with worse AC, given that the alternative is probably an 18/00 strenght; 18 DEX; 18 CON Blackguard which just proves the point that "smarter targeting" works as intended.

    That's an assumption and an attack on OperativeNL's post that was not justified by what he wrote.
    Did he specify who was in his party? I don't think so.
    I'll assume that whoever was in party had a better AC or was invisible, under mirror images or stoneskin, or simply not within sight range; therefore a less viable target. I did say "probably", righhhhhhhhhhht?
    It's called O-V-E-R-E-M-P-H-A-S-I-Z-I-N-G.

    Maybe he had mages with crappy AC and maybe Nimbul didn't target them, which wouldn't be a logical behavior.
    Maybe they were hiding in the woods, or Helm Temple. Maybe a wyvern kidnaped them for all we know.
    Maybe Ao himself hid them.
    See, this is where you fail, since AI is not more than a chain of commands, which poor Nimbul must follow, to the whatevr fate it takes him. If he's told by script
    - not attack stoneskind or mirrored mage!
    - attack the character with worst AC/HP/younameitwhatevertheparameteris!
    Then that's what he will do, under the assumption his script is working.

    If you assume that his script isn't working and he did mess up, then in the game OP is playing there might be others such instances, making his game experience flawed, and his feedback info void of any use apart from bughunting.

    All I'm saying is that you're unnecessarily bellicose when there is absolutely no reason to be.

    Yea, but I'm fine with it.

  • CastorpCastorp Member Posts: 45
    athak said:


    Yea, but I'm fine with it.

    Enjoy reading yourself, then.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    This is a not-so-gentle reminder to everyone to take a look at the Site Rules again, particularly the bits talking about respect. I see a fair bit of grand-standing going on in this thread, and that's not okay.

    Carry on.
    -Dee

  • ljboljbo Member Posts: 177
    DavidW said:


    That's been interesting feedback. I think there are two things going on (not all of which apply to all games):
    (i) SCS mage AI on BG1 is probably optimised under the assumption that prebuffing is installed.

    You warn about that explicitly in the documentation, don't you?

    About what was reported about Daevorn in this thread, that he did not teleport all over the place, runs contrary to my recollection of a play through with easy-tutu + SCS about 2 years ago by the by.

  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 758
    ljbo said:

    DavidW said:


    That's been interesting feedback. I think there are two things going on (not all of which apply to all games):
    (i) SCS mage AI on BG1 is probably optimised under the assumption that prebuffing is installed.

    You warn about that explicitly in the documentation, don't you?
    Yes, I think so.

    About what was reported about Daevorn in this thread, that he did not teleport all over the place, runs contrary to my recollection of a play through with easy-tutu + SCS about 2 years ago by the by.
    @Tisamon is playing solo, with a potion of magic blocking. That basically obviates Davaeorn's usual routine. It's a perfectly legit tactic but there's not a lot Davaeorn can do about it; he only has L1-5 spells.

    @Tisamon: thanks for the Davaeorn video in particular, which I've now watched and was very helpful. There are several bugs here:
    - Something about BGEE messes up battle horror positioning
    - Davaeorn's Minor Globe of Invulnerability ought to make him immune to Entangle and isn't.
    - Davaeorn is supposed to be supported by Iron Throne troops periodically (this is one of the "brute force" strategies you like, I guess?) but they're not showing up.

    Attacking the player in melee isn't really a bug, though: given your protective potions, physical combat is about his only option (he could run away and try to wait it out, but it is very difficult to script for that without breaking things; if you had a party, he'd pick on them instead).

    JuliusBorisov
  • TisamonTisamon Member Posts: 209
    DavidW said:


    - Something about BGEE messes up battle horror positioning
    - Davaeorn's Minor Globe of Invulnerability ought to make him immune to Entangle and isn't.
    - Davaeorn is supposed to be supported by Iron Throne troops periodically (this is one of the "brute force" strategies you like, I guess?) but they're not showing up.

    Attacking the player in melee isn't really a bug, though: given your protective potions, physical combat is about his only option (he could run away and try to wait it out, but it is very difficult to script for that without breaking things; if you had a party, he'd pick on them instead).

    Well, that explains his over-aggressiveness with that staff :) Where should the Horrors be by design? At their regular vanilla location? How often is "periodically"? I actually think our fight took ~1.5 turns (as far as I can recall, judging by potions).

  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 758
    Tisamon said:

    DavidW said:


    Well, that explains his over-aggressiveness with that staff :) Where should the Horrors be by design? At their regular vanilla location?

    Next to Davaeorn. (BGEE has changed the area file relative to standard BG1, which is messing up my code.)

    How often is "periodically"? I actually think our fight took ~1.5 turns (as far as I can recall, judging by potions).
    About 1/5 rounds, but they won't have appeared at all in your install - it's a code error that I've tracked down.

  • mackosmackos Member Posts: 188
    edited November 2013
    - Davaeorn is supposed to be supported by Iron Throne troops periodically (this is one of the "brute force" strategies you like, I guess?) but they're not showing up.

    I didn't know about this feature! sounds cool i hope it will be implemented properly soon. And i don't think it is so colled brute force. It is logical and fair

    @DawidW you removed arrows of dispelling from the game (i always choose 5 per store though) changed elemental arrows to BG2 version (which makes them balanced) changed +1 versions to fine ones and i wonder why arrows of exposion are untauched by your mod

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,338
    Tisamon said:


    I still like the smart use of spells dont get me wrong, i just feel that the "scripted" behaviour in vanilla was actually more difficult for me to defeat than the "smarter mages" behaviour from SCS.

    Thank you for your intellectual honesty.

    I feel that we are facing an Emperor's New Clothes syndrome in this thread: do Nimbul or Tarnesh really work differently for all these guys that feel obliged to defend SCS by saying these mages are in fact infinitely smarter
    As has been stated, mages in BG1 (especially lower leveled ones) aren't all that different under SCS compared to vanilla, mostly because of a limited repertoire of spells giving the AI only so many tools to work with. For a more accurate comparison I'd advise you to try a lich in BG2 with and without SCS (though of course be aware, a full party with protection from undead, mace of disruption etc still won't have any problems).

  • cervanntescervanntes Member Posts: 64
    Alsn said:

    I also don't agree at all that "experienced players" always try to exploit anything they can. In fact, I'd say that's largely an individual choice for each player.


    Well said. I completely agree with this sentiment. The more experienced I get, the more I try to get through the game *without* relying on cheese, exploits, or using foreknowledge. I find the game far more fun this way, especially when playing with groups that aren't min/maxed.

    Stevevdl
  • killeahkilleah Member Posts: 124
    My first experience with a mage in SCS were Silke in beregost with my lvl 1 party of - Charname, Jaheira, Kalid, imoen, Montaron and Xzar.

    and she litterally raped my 6vs1 setup 10 times in a row. I then decided to come back after nashkel, and I fared better.

    Just to put a perspective on the mages are easy in BG:EE - SCS.

    ofc. it could be I'm not seeing the obvious tactic to handle her with a lvl 1 party, I played on hardest game setting also.

    I guess it's also a matter of when in the game, level wise, and with what party you're meeting the enemies.

  • TisamonTisamon Member Posts: 209
    @killeah

    >ofc. it could be I'm not seeing the obvious tactic to handle her with a lvl 1 party

    Alas, that is so ;) Anyway, this thread is largely irrelevant, since David has v28 released with all the bugs dexribed here fixed.

    jackjacktypo_tilly
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