I'm pretty sure there a significant number of statesmen and head figures in the Forgotten realms that are technically Evil-aligned, even in ostensibly good nations.
Supposedly several members of the Council of 6 in Amn are liches.
I'm pretty sure there a significant number of statesmen and head figures in the Forgotten realms that are technically Evil-aligned, even in ostensibly good nations.
Supposedly several members of the Council of 6 in Amn are liches.
@booinyoureyes You're not suggesting that Good rulers can only prosper in feudal and similar systems, are you?
I think "good" rulers are hard to find in most systems, and that the more limited their power, the less likely "bad" would-be rulers would would want that position and the less harm they could do if they manage to get the position.
I'm pretty sure there a significant number of statesmen and head figures in the Forgotten realms that are technically Evil-aligned, even in ostensibly good nations.
Supposedly several members of the Council of 6 in Amn are liches.
@booinyoureyes You're not suggesting that Good rulers can only prosper in feudal and similar systems, are you?
I think "good" rulers are hard to find in most systems, and that the more limited their power, the less likely "bad" would-be rulers would would want that position.
I agree with that. And I don't think many people get into politics with the intent of being corrupt because frankly there are far easier ways to get rich and powerful. But even idealists eventually give in and good people become bad. Would that all things were as simple as a Detect Evil.
I'll extend my no-politics truce to you and end my remarks on that note.
I'm pretty sure there a significant number of statesmen and head figures in the Forgotten realms that are technically Evil-aligned, even in ostensibly good nations.
Supposedly several members of the Council of 6 in Amn are liches.
Lichs aren't necessarily evil.
Isn't Aran Linvail on it too? I think he is Lawful Evil.
@nano Like I said, magic that points out something 99% of characters are either not aware of or do not believe in wouldn't be considered in any way valid in a political arena.
Moderator: "Please give your opening statements" Gorion: "You would be fools to trust his benevolence" Sarevok: "I'm sorry that you feel that way, old man" Moderator "okay, umm, first question. Who would like to start?" Sarevok: "I will be the last. And you will go first"
Amn certainly isn't ruled by a benevolent government. It's no wonder they will allow groups like the Cowled Wizards to permanently remove perceived threats at their whim. Oh, Imoen cast a magic missile spell? Off to prison on a deserted island. Because that makes a lot of sense.
I forgot that Sarevok was also trained as a Deathbringer, which would also explain a bit why he could use the glow of his eyes along with his armor; as a means of utilizing intimidation on his opponents before killing them with immense power, the first which he utilizes a few times in the first Baldur's Gate (before his sword was complete, there was the Bhaalspawn in the intro that he killed with his bare hands, and the man was terrified beyond any means of defending himself.), and the immense power he wields is in his Deathbringer Assault ability itself.
The glow itself is possibly just theatrical though, a few pictures of Sarevok show him without the yellow glow in his eyes, though his face is mostly masked in his helmet.
@nano Like I said, magic that points out something 99% of characters are either not aware of or do not believe in wouldn't be considered in any way valid in a political arena.
They don't believe in alignment? First I've heard of this, though I understand why people prefer to handwave it away for the purposes of storytelling. Like I said, it causes a lot of logical problems when it's a detectable thing.
It might just be that the guys on the original development team were big fans of Stargate.... EDIT: Doesn't the PC get the same effect in ToB, or have I been reading too much fanfic did I dream that?
@BaldursCat Well, in Throne of Bhaal you can beam up using your Asgard beaming technology to your own private spaceship in space where you get to meet all kinds of aliens. Including some Unas, humans from other worlds, and ascended beings.
@nano how many nations on Faerun are governed by a system that remotely resembles a constitutional democracy or a republic?
But yeah this got into a weird political thing, lol
Plenty, actually. At least the second (having your landholders elect someone for life to a noble-sounding non-inherited position is actually quite similar to some systems on our world), and there's always Turmish for the first...
Also, no matter how secretive the Bhaal cults have been, there is always the symbol of Bhaal itself.
Bentley and Gellana took the Friendly Arm Inn from a Cleric of Bhaal so they might know something. Gorion led an attack on a Bhaalyn temple (though this may not be common knowledge in the realms). Candlekeep is one of the most impressive libraries in Faerun, surely there's a book with an inscription of that logo somewhere?
That might be the case, but Sarevok doesn't wear his armour in Candlekeep. He goes in 'disguise' as it were, likely *because* the monks might recognise the symbol. There's no guarantee people in Baldur's Gate know the symbol. Even amongst the elite, how many of them would have spent enough time in Candlekeep library to know Bhaal's symbol when they had no reason to research it?
Heraldry is very complicated. Medieval society made a science out of it. Every noble family had a bunch of crests, all designed following very specific rules. These crests were also reworked and personalised for every member of the family that fought in full armour. Something like a skull was very often used. Thus the symbol of Bhaal is hardly noticeable. Even if somebody knows of its existance, it is covered in a whole bunch of other skull motives in crests.
That might be the case, but Sarevok doesn't wear his armour in Candlekeep. He goes in 'disguise' as it were, likely *because* the monks might recognise the symbol. There's no guarantee people in Baldur's Gate know the symbol. Even amongst the elite, how many of them would have spent enough time in Candlekeep library to know Bhaal's symbol when they had no reason to research it?
I'm not saying Sarevok went to Candlekeep in his armour, or that the elite of Baldur's Gate have spent years and years in Candlekeep studying it. All they'd need to do is take the 1,000gp tome to Candlekeep, ask one of the sages (or even Tethtoril himself) for help finding a section about the gods. I'm sure there's going to be symbols of them in there. Job done.
Heraldry is very complicated. Medieval society made a science out of it. Every noble family had a bunch of crests, all designed following very specific rules. These crests were also reworked and personalised for every member of the family that fought in full armour. Something like a skull was very often used. Thus the symbol of Bhaal is hardly noticeable. Even if somebody knows of its existance, it is covered in a whole bunch of other skull motives in crests.
I see no problem there.
But this version of Bhaal's symbol is exact to the lore (of the land). A skull with tears of blood circling it.
I'm not saying Sarevok went to Candlekeep in his armour, or that the elite of Baldur's Gate have spent years and years in Candlekeep studying it. All they'd need to do is take the 1,000gp tome to Candlekeep, ask one of the sages (or even Tethtoril himself) for help finding a section about the gods. I'm sure there's going to be symbols of them in there. Job done.
Seems like a lot of work to do when most people would just assume Sarevok is a Kelemvor worshiper. You could do all of that, sure, but why would you unless you suspected the symbol of being bad? Nobody does, so nobody bothers with the research.
I'm not saying Sarevok went to Candlekeep in his armour, or that the elite of Baldur's Gate have spent years and years in Candlekeep studying it. All they'd need to do is take the 1,000gp tome to Candlekeep, ask one of the sages (or even Tethtoril himself) for help finding a section about the gods. I'm sure there's going to be symbols of them in there. Job done.
Seems like a lot of work to do when most people would just assume Sarevok is a Kelemvor worshiper. You could do all of that, sure, but why would you unless you suspected the symbol of being bad? Nobody does, so nobody bothers with the research.
But this version of Bhaal's symbol is exact to the lore (of the land). A skull with tears of blood circling it.
But very few people know that.
A symbol of a skull with tears of blood? I'm a pretty open person but even I'd check that out. I'd hope the leaders of a whole city who are on the brink of war would check that out too. I'd also assume that out of the few people who know, someone will at Candlekeep or it will have been written down.
@TethorilofLathander The logo on Sarevok's armor is monochromatic. There's no indication that the tears are blood. And, for the umpteenth time, Kelemvor is who most would assume the skull is for.
That might be the case, but Sarevok doesn't wear his armour in Candlekeep. He goes in 'disguise' as it were, likely *because* the monks might recognise the symbol. There's no guarantee people in Baldur's Gate know the symbol. Even amongst the elite, how many of them would have spent enough time in Candlekeep library to know Bhaal's symbol when they had no reason to research it?
Actually if you remember the SoA intro, CHARNAME left Baldur's Gate because questions of his/her lineage was raised when they found a Bhaal symbol amongst the dead in the aftermath of Sarevok's defeat, meaning that the symbol is more than likely known. Also, when Bhaalists murder someone, they make sure that those who discover it realize that it was in Bhaal's name, so his symbol is more common than most would think.
But Kelemvor only ascended to godhood in the same year as these happenings (1368DR), to know his symbol so soon after seems unlikely. Kelemvor's symbol is an upright skeletal arm holding the golden scales of justice. Even Cyric and Myrkul's symbols are closer to Bhaal's than that.
Comments
The chaotic good ones and lawful good would be the random third party or movement candidates that don't win.
We're lucky when we get the rare neutral good one from time to time
You missed my point and turned it into a weird political thing. All I was saying was that if Detect Evil was available people would use it.
But yeah this got into a weird political thing, lol
Yes, this did get weird fast.
Anyways, enough politics. I don't see the relevance. You don't need a constitutional democracy to be suspicious of your new duke that's, hmm, evil.
I'll extend my no-politics truce to you and end my remarks on that note.
Like I said, magic that points out something 99% of characters are either not aware of or do not believe in wouldn't be considered in any way valid in a political arena.
Moderator: "Please give your opening statements"
Gorion: "You would be fools to trust his benevolence"
Sarevok: "I'm sorry that you feel that way, old man"
Moderator "okay, umm, first question. Who would like to start?"
Sarevok: "I will be the last. And you will go first"
Amn certainly isn't ruled by a benevolent government. It's no wonder they will allow groups like the Cowled Wizards to permanently remove perceived threats at their whim. Oh, Imoen cast a magic missile spell? Off to prison on a deserted island. Because that makes a lot of sense.
The glow itself is possibly just theatrical though, a few pictures of Sarevok show him without the yellow glow in his eyes, though his face is mostly masked in his helmet.
Well, in Throne of Bhaal you can beam up using your Asgard beaming technology to your own private spaceship in space where you get to meet all kinds of aliens. Including some Unas, humans from other worlds, and ascended beings.
Bentley and Gellana took the Friendly Arm Inn from a Cleric of Bhaal so they might know something. Gorion led an attack on a Bhaalyn temple (though this may not be common knowledge in the realms). Candlekeep is one of the most impressive libraries in Faerun, surely there's a book with an inscription of that logo somewhere?
Something like a skull was very often used. Thus the symbol of Bhaal is hardly noticeable. Even if somebody knows of its existance, it is covered in a whole bunch of other skull motives in crests.
I see no problem there.
But this version of Bhaal's symbol is exact to the lore (of the land). A skull with tears of blood circling it.
But very few people know that.
The logo on Sarevok's armor is monochromatic. There's no indication that the tears are blood. And, for the umpteenth time, Kelemvor is who most would assume the skull is for.