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Irenicus in ToB

just had a random thought

Wouldn't it be way better if Irenicus was written into ToB and was the one behind killing the bhaalspawn instead of Melissan? Irenicus should of had a brother who was written into SoA and aided him at Spellhold and Suldanessellar. He would be the final SoA fight while Irenicus escapes so you have some sense of conclusion yet still a sense of this isn't over yet.

The ToB story line seems to come up short for many people in terms of captivating them in a nostalgic sense - In my opinion Melissan is far too dull of a character to be the final straw of the entire series.

Irenicus should of been the last stand, the last hurrah, the kiss to send us off since he is the greatest villain to ever be conceived. Sure it might take away from the magic that is SoA as a whole but would lengthen the nostalgia through BG2 in it's entirety

Thoughts?
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Comments

  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    edited December 2013
    @EnterHaerDalis

    I would have prefered Irenicus as an ally instead of Sarevok. Though if it gets rid of Mellisan I'm all for it... But seriously, Winthrop's old socks would make a more interesting villain than Mellisan.

    @nano

    I really like the Imoen idea. Seeing her slowly become evil and twisted over the saga would have been great. Or Bhaal takes over her body, and you have to kill her to stop him... It's all been done before but it's still a hundred times better than what we got in ToB.
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    I remember one time I did play ToB, Irenicus actually spawned in the first Challenge room sequence near the end with the hordes of enemies, he didn't cast magic though and could only use wands (supposedly to mock the fact that he lost his magic). I don't know how this happened though because I could never replicate the scenario ever since.
  • EnterHaerDalisEnterHaerDalis Member Posts: 813
    nano said:

    I was hoping to take down Bhaal himself. I guess that's what Melissan is in a way but I didn't want to fight a priest chick, I wanted to fight a god.

    Alternatively, Imoen. What a twist! Actually I would hate that because I like Imoen and it'd break my heart to kill her but it would make for quite the story. Or Gorion! I mean, why did Sarevok take out Gorion instead of chasing you? Maybe he knows something you don't. Probably too contrived though, let's just go with Bhaal.

    I wouldn't want to see Irenicus back. If I kill someone they should stay dead. Looking at you, Sarevok... how many times do I have to put you down?

    Well if you read my post at all you'd know that I suggested that a character such as Irenicus' brother be written into SoA to replace him in a sense and preserve Irenicus all the way til the end of ToB
  • RyofuRyofu Member Posts: 268
    edited December 2013
    I would have preferred that Noober is revealed to be a super villain with a dastardly plan to replace you as the heroic CHARNAME and steal your identity forever and you have to fight an epic battle against him to prevent identity theft
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Haha, I think @Edwin_Odesseiron especially will love this idea more than anyone else on the forums.
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    @Shin Lol, that's literally the first thing I thought about when reading OP xD
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742

    I remember one time I did play ToB, Irenicus actually spawned in the first Challenge room sequence near the end with the hordes of enemies, he didn't cast magic though and could only use wands (supposedly to mock the fact that he lost his magic). I don't know how this happened though because I could never replicate the scenario ever since.

    i saw the last time i did the 1st challenge in the ToB pocket plane and I was sure I hadn't seen that before. Couldn't decide whether it was an enhancement or because I was high level (party lvl avg 21)
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    Sorry, I respect your opinion, but after SOA absolutely the last thing I wanted was yet more Irenicus.
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    I think Irenicus should've been a joinable NPC in ToB, much like Sarevok. And he should've had some special abilities of his own to mimic his casting style. Like triple charged spells (looks like Protection from Evil), split Disintegrate and, sometimes at random (much like Sarevok's ability), enemies would simply die when he's casting.
  • JonelethIrenicusJonelethIrenicus Member Posts: 157
    Lathlaer said:

    I think Irenicus should've been a joinable NPC in ToB, much like Sarevok. And he should've had some special abilities of his own to mimic his casting style. Like triple charged spells (looks like Protection from Evil), split Disintegrate and, sometimes at random (much like Sarevok's ability), enemies would simply die when he's casting.

    Then you should try the longer road mod ;)
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    All the villains in BG are pretty poor, really. Irenicus is great because of David Warner hamming it up gloriously, but he's not deep or interesting in himself.

    That said, Melissan suffers primarily due to the fact she's in ToB. Any villain in ToB would have been shoddily done when compared to Sarevok or Irenicus. Melissan could quite easily have been the best villain, I think, had she been the antagonist of a full-blown BG3, as was presumably originally intended.
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475

    Lathlaer said:

    I think Irenicus should've been a joinable NPC in ToB, much like Sarevok. And he should've had some special abilities of his own to mimic his casting style. Like triple charged spells (looks like Protection from Evil), split Disintegrate and, sometimes at random (much like Sarevok's ability), enemies would simply die when he's casting.

    Then you should try the longer road mod ;)
    Wow, I guess nothing should surprise me in the modding community. I don't suppose it's compatibile, since it's not on the list.

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Don't think it's compatible yet, but hopefully it will be. It's well written and doesn't just bring Irenicus back as an NPC, he's brings a lot of debating with him throughout ToB. Arguably it's almost too difficult to get the "best" ending.
  • RealReal Member Posts: 68

    just had a random thought

    Wouldn't it be way better if Irenicus was written into ToB and was the one behind killing the bhaalspawn instead of Melissan? Irenicus should of had a brother who was written into SoA and aided him at Spellhold and Suldanessellar. He would be the final SoA fight while Irenicus escapes so you have some sense of conclusion yet still a sense of this isn't over yet.


    Irenicus' brother? After defeating him, we now have to fight his evil twin? I rather we get to fight Irenicus' mom. That would make for some more interesting play. Then in ToB, we should get Irenicus' mom to join charname's party and make it so that she can be romanced.
  • ZanianZanian Member Posts: 332
    Just get David Warner to voice Melissan and there's your epic villain. It would keep the player interested if anything.
  • EnterHaerDalisEnterHaerDalis Member Posts: 813
    Real said:

    just had a random thought

    Wouldn't it be way better if Irenicus was written into ToB and was the one behind killing the bhaalspawn instead of Melissan? Irenicus should of had a brother who was written into SoA and aided him at Spellhold and Suldanessellar. He would be the final SoA fight while Irenicus escapes so you have some sense of conclusion yet still a sense of this isn't over yet.


    Irenicus' brother? After defeating him, we now have to fight his evil twin? I rather we get to fight Irenicus' mom. That would make for some more interesting play. Then in ToB, we should get Irenicus' mom to join charname's party and make it so that she can be romanced.
    plot twist, Melissan is Irenicus' mom
    Zanian said:

    Just get David Warner to voice Melissan and there's your epic villain. It would keep the player interested if anything.

    brilliant and simple solution. not even worth arguing about it's so perfect
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    Rather not, but honestly anything would've been better than Melissan.
  • DeltharisDeltharis Member Posts: 124
    Bringing him wouldn't do us any good. SoA without his defeat wouldn't be the same - fight in Hell would have to be moved to ToB, and if that was the case maybe we wouldn't have that great nostalgia in the first place.

    Also Sarevok-like companionship is out of the question - either he wouldn't have magic and be of no use, or he would have, and couldn't be trusted. I don't think there could be any precaution good enough agains a man of that caliber to explain him staying by your side during one of those 16-hour rests.

    Amelyssan wasn't bad per se. She just did not get any exposition, no emotional link was formed. Like, at all. Sarevok instilled fear thorugh Gorion, maybe some hatered. Irenicus involved a little fear and lots of hatered. She was just there. It WAS a good plot twist, just needed tripling the amount of dialogues involved.
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    It should have been a fight vs bhaal
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    Am I the only one except @Edwin_Odesseiron that likes Amelyssan? Sure, she's not as personal as Sarevok or Irenicus but I like her still.

    Her battle feels like I'm fighting a demi-god (if not god) in a different plane, she has the levels of Irenicus, is a 30 level Cleric and she's a damn good fighter, plus she's huge.

    Her appearance is unique enough (not a classic mage or a classic tank like Sarevok in plate) and her quotes are cool. "Doom await thee. You shall suffer."

    What kind of bugs me is her voice actor which is Jaheira.
    And I like that when you defeat her she doesn't become dust or sent to hell, she is completely annihilated on a spiritual level.

    And I choose to think of Ascension as semi-official so the final battle against all of the Five makes her and the final battle even more epic.

    What she lacks unfortunately compared to the other two villains, is that she's not personal enough. We don't know much about her except what is said when her consciousness is summoned.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    @archaos No, I like Melissan too. I wish she was more developed. I think it would have been great if they showed that she was related to the Bhaalspawn at an earlier stage. Like maybe she helped Gorion save the young children of Bhaal. Maybe she whispered ideas into a young Sarevok's mind to make sure he got things moving.
    What would have been truly great is if it was revealed that she gave birth to one of Bhaal's progeny... maybe as a mother to Charname (or even Imoen, though it would be less impactful). Now she is obsessed with the power and wants to steal her own child's essence. It would make the final showdown a lot more fascinating.
  • TaearTaear Member Posts: 90

    @archaos No, I like Melissan too. I wish she was more developed. I think it would have been great if they showed that she was related to the Bhaalspawn at an earlier stage. Like maybe she helped Gorion save the young children of Bhaal. Maybe she whispered ideas into a young Sarevok's mind to make sure he got things moving.

    What - she is, she's the high priestess who took the bhaalspawn. She says she is! Presumably she'd have been at the temple when the Harpers assaulted it.
  • ifupaulineifupauline Member Posts: 405
    we need a much better villain than Melissan, she seems so weak compare to Irenicus on EVERY LEVEL to put it clearly.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421

    we need a much better villain than Melissan, she seems so weak compare to Irenicus on EVERY LEVEL to put it clearly.

    I'm not too sure on that. What Amelyssan lacks is more backstory and taking it to a personal level. Sarevok and Irenicus did that. Amelyssan didn't care for CHARNAME in the least, only until the end.

    Some suggested that we should be fighting Bhaal. That would wrong for many reasons. A few of them:
    1) If Bhaal was reborn, he would be unkillable unless another god helped Charname. As he would actually be a god.
    2) Bhaal would be able to pull a Bane on charname. What Bane did, was that he had a son, Iyachtu Xvim, when he became powerful enough, he just burst out of him like in the Aliens movies. Maybe Bhaal would just kill the remaining Bhaalspawn when he was resurrected as he would in full command of their essences.

    Fighting a priestess of Bhaal is as close to fighting Bhaal without actually fighting him.

    What I think the developers said was something like: "How do you fight Bhaal without actually fighting him? We know, you fight his strongest priest that holds most of his essence but is not a god, yet."

    It's like fighting the Chosen of Bane, Fzoul Chembryl. His most powerful priest that became a demi-god afterwards.
  • XcidiumXcidium Member Posts: 22

    plot twist, Melissan is Irenicus' mom

    and Marl's mother-in-law (she saw what you did there in Beregost)

  • EnterHaerDalisEnterHaerDalis Member Posts: 813
    should of known my idea would of been picked apart by the intellects on this forum, making me feel like a retard, lol

    =)

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