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Clarification on spell level limits

I've always wondered if there are exceptions to the level 20 spell level cap (or level 9 for Paladins/Rangers).

The main spell that comes to mind is dispel magic/remove magic. If for instance, the caster is level 25, the target is level 22, does the caster get a 65% (50% + 5% x 3levels) chance of success, or a 30% (50% - 10% x2 levels) chance of success due to the spell level capping at 20?

Same thing with turn undead. I have no idea if turn undead acts as a spell, or ability, or if there is even a difference. Does it cap at level 20, or do you continue to gain benefit up to level 40?

Comments

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited October 2013
    Except for HLA spells, all spells cap at 20 without mods, or sooner if they have a lower cap.

    The max caster lvl of 9 for rangers/paladin isn't enforced and they cast at class lvl instead of 7 or 8 less, respectively.


    Turn Undead is based purely on Class level vs target HD. Except for paladin who have a -2 level penalty.

    Dispel is the same if memory serves, since it isn't a normal caster level check, it checks the difference in Level between the caster and the target to modify the base 50% success rate.


    RAM021
  • magpiemagpie Member Posts: 79

    Turn Undead is based purely on Class level vs target HD. Except for paladin who have a -2 level penalty.

    And if I understood correctly Turn Undead maxes out at lvl 14

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    I think there are one or two exceptions to the limit. I remember reading that Paladin casting levels were not capped, and so they continue to gain caster levels past 20 in unmodded BG2 (Though you need to be above level 29 for this to make any difference). This is likely a bug though, and may well have been fixed for EE.

    I don't think that Turn Undead caps at level 14 though @magpie. People definitely claim to have turned Kangaxx the demi-lich, though you need to be very high level to manage it. This thread contains a table with the supposed levels:
    http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15859&highlight=turn+undead

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited October 2013
    The PnP chart caps out at 14......BG just keeps going.

    Then again, at 14+ a PnP cleric can turn a Lich about 40% of the time, and Gods and Demons 5 and 15% of the time.

    The high level rules keep expanding the turning though.

  • HuntHunt Member Posts: 27
    Thanks for the feedback all.

    @ZanathKariashi Not sure about all spells, but I ran a test with a level 16 Paladin, ToB, patches applied, no mods, newly created.

    Armor of Faith provided 10% resistance, which I assume is the level 1 and 5 increments. If not capped, I would think it should be 20% at level 16.

    Draw upon Holy Might provided 2 bonus to str/con/dex. I was thinking it would be 3, but maybe it caps at level 8. Regardless, if not capped, I would think it should have provided +5.

  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 936
    Well, no 40d6 Flame Arrows for my jester then, I guess. However, now that I've read about HLAs, I'm looking forward to using Time Traps to give myself mini-Time Stops.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    @Hunt Paladins start at caster level 1 at level 9 and only gain caster levels one level at a time after that. Your level 16 paladin will have a caster level of 7, which should explain the results seen rather than being capped.

    RAM021
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 679
    Corvino said:

    @Hunt Paladins start at caster level 1 at level 9 and only gain caster levels one level at a time after that. Your level 16 paladin will have a caster level of 7, which should explain the results seen rather than being capped.

    Hmm, if they start at caster level 1 at experience level 9 then wouldn't they be caster level 8 at experience level 16? i.e. maintaining a gap of 8 between caster level and experience level?

    If they are only caster level 7 at experience level 16 then they've lost a caster level somewhere.

    RAM021
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    edited October 2013
    You are correct, they would be caster level 8. Morning maths, brain not warmed up yet.

    In any case, it still explains the results of testing demonstrated.

    RAM021
  • HuntHunt Member Posts: 27
    In that case, would their spell casting cap at level 12 (character level 20), or 20 (character level 28)?

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    It caps at spell level 20. You can test it easily by giving yourself some exp through the console: a high level paladin gets 25% from armor of faith, same as a level 20 cleric.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    edited November 2013
    Armor of faith caps normally as it doesn't go beyond level 20. The truly interesting thing is whether dispel caps at 20. Vanilla BG2 has paladins continuing to gain caster levels right up to level 34, meaning caster level 26 which is useful for dispel magic, and making it the second most potent after inquisitors.

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @Corvino. It's hard to test; maybe some of the more experienced modders know. But I can give you my reading, which is that dispel is not capped at 20. In fact, level caps for spells are not coded as caps; they just stop giving you more benefits when you're higher than the cap.

    So fireball reads something like
    level 8: 8d6
    level 9: 9d6
    level 10+: 10d6

    If you're level 20, you actually are casting a level 20 fireball; it just does the same amount of damage as a level 10 one. I believe dispel magic works the same way, except it does give benefits for being 20 or above (certainly some effects dispel with a caster level of 30 or so) so every caster has access to this, not just paladins.

  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 936
    So bards/clerics are the best at dispelling?

    RAM021
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Inquisitors are the best at dispelling because their dispel ability casts as a "level 0" spell, bypassing enemies that have immunity to level 1-3 or 1-5 spells, like Liches and Demi-Liches respectively. So Inquisitors can dispel some of Kangaxx's protections and no-one else can.

    LordRumfishRAM021
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 744
    edited January 2014
    @Corvino No, it's not true.
    The dispel effect of Dispel and Remove Magic Wizard spells are also set to spell power 0, which means they can bypass Liches spell protections. They use the caster level to determine the chance of dispelling, whereas Inquisitors use the spell level (which equals two times their class level, starting at 12).
    Unfortunately Liches are so high level that you usually don't see any difference.

    But @LordRumfish is right when he says Bards and Clerics also make excellent dispellers.
    Rangers and Paladins not so much, as they cast respectively at -7 and -8.

    Also, @nano is right about the casting level. It actually equals the class level except for Rangers and Paladins as mentioned before. Most spells indeed do not have additional effects past level 20. As a result, if you're level 21 you will obtain level 20 effects but still casting at level 21.
    As I said, the spell versions of dispel use the caster level (if you look at the spell file you will see there's only one block of effects not several for each level), which means it can theoretically go as high as 40 for Bards and Priests.

    On the same matter, Inquisitors are limited to a level 40 dispel but they get it at level 20 :) !

    Post edited by Abel on
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,153
    All the spells levels ends at level 20 as max. Unless paladin and ranger spells that have to stop their casting level before.
    Some spells clarify that they stop before 20 like Fireball and Lightning Bolt.
    Bards get an awesome casting level since they are rouges and they can cast up to lvl6.

    jackjack
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 744
    @CrevsDaak Dispel Magic works differently. Read my explanation again and compare the resource file (SPWI326.SPL) to another one of a spell like Fireball.

    I don't understand what you're saying about Paladin and Ranger. They cast the exact same spells than Cleric and Druids except they do at caster level = class level -8 and -7. So, for example to get the same effect as a level 20 Cleric for Armor of Faith, a Paladin must be level 28.
    That's all.

    CrevsDaakRAM021
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,153
    edited January 2014
    @Abel I did know that about Dispel Magic (I forgot to mention it) improving after level 20, but I thought Paladons and Rangers only improved thier casting level up to level 8/9.

    Abel
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 744
    @CrevsDaak Oh, all right I understand :) ! No don't worry, I made some tests to be sure, of course!

    CrevsDaak
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