What do we think of Edwin Odesseiron?
golingarf
Member Posts: 157
~ The Opening Argument Against Edwin Odesseiron ~
- Red Wizards' extra spells were supposed to be specifically from the specialty school, but Edwin can use his extra spell slots for any school.
- Red Wizards were supposed to have a 25% lower chance to learn a spell from any school other than their specialty school, but Edwin has no such difficulties.
- Red Wizards were supposed to have at least 14 charisma, but Edwin is an obnoxious little $%^& with 10 charisma.
- Red Wizards were crazy-broken even before all their disadvantages were eliminated.
- Other characters did not gain all the benefits of the non-core classes they logically ought to have belonged to. For example, as Rashemaar Witch, Dynaheir should have had Horror (or something like it) 3 times per day.
- He displays poor personal hygiene and desperately needs to be introduced to a nail-clipper.
~ The Opening Argument in Favor of Edwin Odesseiron ~
- Other characters also have special abilities that a by-the-books character oughtn't possess, such as Coran's extra dexterity and bow pip, and Viconia's magic resistance.
- It's a good thing that there is an NPC who is better than any possible PC mage, because it makes the player feel less invincible.
- Allowing Edwin to be a Red Wizard adds flavor to the game.
- Edwin's amulet provides a convenient way for players who don't like magic very much to take just one NPC spellcaster and have enough spells to muddle through, and when used this way, rather than overshadowing the PC, he can seem like the supporting character he was probably intended to be.
- Edwina is sexy.
So,
- Red Wizards' extra spells were supposed to be specifically from the specialty school, but Edwin can use his extra spell slots for any school.
- Red Wizards were supposed to have a 25% lower chance to learn a spell from any school other than their specialty school, but Edwin has no such difficulties.
- Red Wizards were supposed to have at least 14 charisma, but Edwin is an obnoxious little $%^& with 10 charisma.
- Red Wizards were crazy-broken even before all their disadvantages were eliminated.
- Other characters did not gain all the benefits of the non-core classes they logically ought to have belonged to. For example, as Rashemaar Witch, Dynaheir should have had Horror (or something like it) 3 times per day.
- He displays poor personal hygiene and desperately needs to be introduced to a nail-clipper.
~ The Opening Argument in Favor of Edwin Odesseiron ~
- Other characters also have special abilities that a by-the-books character oughtn't possess, such as Coran's extra dexterity and bow pip, and Viconia's magic resistance.
- It's a good thing that there is an NPC who is better than any possible PC mage, because it makes the player feel less invincible.
- Allowing Edwin to be a Red Wizard adds flavor to the game.
- Edwin's amulet provides a convenient way for players who don't like magic very much to take just one NPC spellcaster and have enough spells to muddle through, and when used this way, rather than overshadowing the PC, he can seem like the supporting character he was probably intended to be.
- Edwina is sexy.
So,
- What do we think of Edwin Odesseiron?107 votes
- Totally hoopy frood. Keep him just like he is.64.49%
- The designers might have gone a little too far, but nerfing him still wouldn't feel right.17.76%
- He should be converted to a legal character. Off with the amulet!5.61%
- He should have to sleep next to Minsc. Off with his head!12.15%
0
Comments
But the main reason to keep Edwin around is that he's hysterical, and that's why I keep him around during times when I desire it. The game is so easy that honestly, the extra spells don't really make much of a difference unless I'm playing SCS Insane, and I got my creds from that and don't usually feel the need to do it again. So I use Edwin for his personality, not his spellslots.
I mean, he is a very good spellcaster, but I would like him to be a Red Wizard, to make him more accurate and to make him less powerful.
- Extra Spell Slot not restricted to school. True for all specialist mages; Edwin isn't uniquely advantaged here. I would like this change for all schools; at least 1 spell of school must be memorized per level before others can be memorized.
- No learning/scribing issues, low charisma. Again, not unique to Conjuration, which is the point here: Edwin is a Conjurer, there is no Red Wizard kit with rules he violates. Would it be nice if he had a Red Wizard kit? Sure. But there isn't one, so you can't critize that he violates rules for a kit that doesn't exist. Just like you can't complain about Tiax not being like a priest of Cyric would be in PnP or something.
- Red Wizards were crazy-broken even before all their disadvantages were eliminated. Again, Edwin is not a Red Wizard by kit. It doesn't matter how broken a kit that doesn't exist would be if he had it. Why not complain about Bladesingers once we're at it?
- Other NPCs don't have the advantages you would see fit for their - again, non-existant, kits. Dynaheir is an Invoker. She has a special ability. Just not the one you (or I, for that matter) would have given her. That said, I would have given Edwin something more unique than "super necklace of extra spell slot" - not because it's cheesy-broken-OP, but because I find it quite boring and uncreative in comparison to other abilities. (Of which some are less boring, but don't neccessarily make sense - maybe I'm weird, but I don't get why Tiax can summon a ghast, and the necromancer Xzar can not.)
- "He displays poor personal hygiene and desperately needs to be introduced to a nail-clipper." Not seeing it, and I also don't understand what that has to do with his class, kit or being overpowered. I find his personality and voiceset entertaining, but it doesn't change a thing about his functionality as a mage.
- Others also having abilities. Well, yeah. Presumably the abilities mentioned (Viconia, Coran) are more in tune with your preferences. I'm not sure how that is a pro or contra regarding Edwin's extra spells.
- Better than charname. I personally like it that some NPCs have abilities charname can't have - Viconia's MR, Dorn being a half-orc, Tiax' summon (though I really wish it was Xzar who had it). For some people, it's a major annoyance that charname can't have those things. Again, neither a real pro nor contra point.
- "Allowing Edwin to be a Red Wizard adds flavor to the game." - Except, he isn't a Red Wizard by kit, just like Dynaheir is "only" a specialist mage.
- The amulet also prevents Edwin from wearing some neat items, i.e. Amulet of Power (MR, permanent vocalize) or Poison Immunity. With Edwin as only caster, I would happily trade his extra spells for either of them, and throughout the game, a number of other necklaces. Not a strict pro.
- "Edwina is sexy." - Nope. And it's immersion breaking that my dialogue option insists I help to turn him back into his "less pleasant" form. I'm gay and find his male form by far more pleasant (though not as pleasant as Anomen's or Eldoth'.)
In fact, every evil playable NPC is OP in BG 2, and it's as it should be, IMO, since most evil characters wouldn't last long if they were utter weaklings. Most of them are total loners as well, so their unusual OP-ness fits the profile. He's essentially a lower level Irenicus.
And as OP as he seems, the reality is that he has unimpressive stats apart from Constitution and Intelligence, and has two extra spell slots per level (meaning he'll need to rest less, and can get two extra higher level summons out earlier). That's not really all that OP.
Another way of looking at the OP-ness of the amulet is to consider that it effectively makes him a higher level mage in most, if not all, circumstances compared to any other caster in the group (especially at the level cap), which actually fits his profile quite well, since from his perspective, he is essentially lowering himself by joining the group (we're all simians to him lol). While you can kill him in the game, the reality is that he would be very hard to kill in "story-mode" and he'd likely be travelling with your group only so that he can use you as underlings/henchmen to get rare magical items and scrolls that he's looking for, basically using you as potential cannon fodder. Also, being chaotic/lawful evil (depending on the version), it's highly unlikely that he's the type to put his life in the hands of his group. Rather, he's likely the type to hold back, reserve a lot of his power, and have a getaway plan for if things go sower. So what looks throughout the game like him gaining power is in fact him gradually revealing more of his power, which for a long time he kept hidden. Like Gandalf in LotR. Nobody knows what he's capable of except in a few brief moments when he starts casting his crazy spells to jam doorways, set the forest ablaze with eldritch fire, duel the balrog, etc. The level progression, in the case of Edwin, is just a mechanical aspect of the game, since obviously it wouldn't be fun travelling around with a level 10-20 mage (depending on the game) who can slaughter everything, not to mention that he has no reason to do all the work and completely exhaust his power, which would put him in a vulnerable position.
That's just my RP theory crafting though lol
If I am playing a primary character, my sorceress loves Edwina as a statue in her shiney Planar Sphere. As she didn't like the competition^^
I think the amulet is ridiculously overpowered and it's idiotic to give him all the benefits of the Red Wizard and none of the drawbacks, but it's ten years too late to fix that now. If I were going to try to balance it myself, I'd probably just give him a custom class that borrows from the 3e rules instead and takes away another school. One that would actually hurt him a bit. It's not something that should be officially changed, though.
Perhaps I should not take too harsh a stance on the wael, despite how quickly I tired of his nasal whine; the refusal to abandon the garb of his homeland and our disdain for the many people beneath us perhaps gave us common ground... if only a small, bare patch of it. Edwin was a traveller much as myself, similarly forced to find sanctuary in strange and at times ill-fitting alliances. I often saw the opportunity a devious rivvin with his skills might have for advantageous treachery, yet whether through simple obliviousness or a healthy sense of self-preservation, Edwin Odesseiron never followed through - despite repeated claims under his breath that it would be quite reasonable to do so, had he the chance.
Perhaps it was possible for the same dedication he showed in his magely studies to be turned to his fellows after all, at least to some small extent.
If you feel that Edwin is too strong, you could leave his last spell-slot empty... or force yourself to memorise a fixed number of Conjuration spells in every spell-circle.
(Or, you know, kill him/leave him where he stands.)
It is surely simpler for a player to power-down a strong NPC than to do the opposite (I'm looking in your direction, Garrick!).
For me, Edwin is great fun and has one of the most enjoyable sub-plots in the saga.
Han is a better pilot than Luke, Worf is a stronger fighter than Picard, Beckett is a better, well everything, than Castle (and of course, River Tam can do everything better than Capt'n Tightpants). It's part of the "adventuring hero gathering a group and the going of adventuring"-schtick. Besides, why would I hire someone to do something if I can do it better?
That said, I like Edwin, I don't mind that he's too powerful (EVERYONE get's insanely powerful about halfway through SoA anyways) and I like that he's an arrogant asshole so that if I don't take him I don't feel bad about it.
The charisma and spell-learning chance issues are irrelevant for me.