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Dual Class Vs Multiclass, pros and cons for those of us who are new

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  • raywindraywind Member Posts: 289
    why worry make a blade and you are set for each position of the party
  • SedSed Member Posts: 790
    Here is a link to a very detailed page about multi/dual-classing with alla advantages, disadvantages and combinations, including restrictions and recommendations.

    http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Dual_and_Multiclassing
    Oxford_GuyRAM021
  • 10thLich10thLich Member Posts: 99
    Unfortunately it leaves out two major factors:
    - High stat requirements for a class aren't a disadvantage per se. Due to the way character creation works if you roll bad on a stat the class requires to have at a high value, it gets set to that higher value.
    Which means that a non-human fighter/druid for example could roll 17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 3 for Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma and still get 17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 15 as that 3 is automatically set to the minimum required for that class.

    That is valid for every class with high stat requirements - bard, druid, ranger, paladin and corresponding multi-class variants.

    A human Fighter planning to dual into a Druid doesn't have that advantage, as he has to make do with the low minimum stat requirements of the Fighter.

    - Mods

    10th
    RAM021
  • perfectblueperfectblue Member Posts: 10
    edited August 2012
    Couple questions.

    1. Lets say you decided to do fighter/mage. Your first class will be fighter to level 8, next will be mage until level 9 where you gain back your fighter abilities. We will call this the dual class cycle.

    Can the complete dual class cycle be accomplished within the entirety of BG1 before jumping to the expansion pack (swords coast) and having a full party (not removing any members to give the dual class additional xp)?

    Because I see little use for dual class if it takes until midway through BG2 to unlock a dual class full circle.

    2. Dual Classing lets you dual into a class kit correct. So you could have a beserker (kit of fighter) /illusionist (kit of mage)
  • SedSed Member Posts: 790
    "A level 4 fighter can dual-class to mage without affecting the mage's ability to reach the level cap in BG1, and a level 8 fighter who dual-classes to mage can reach the highest level of mage without penalty in Throne of Bhaal so there is basically no reason not to gain that extra 24 or 48 HP respectively, let alone the bonus thac0 you'd receive."

    Quote from the page I linked.
    Going for BG1, you should dual after you reached lvl 4.
    For BG2, you can just roll a fighter and dual after start (you start at 8 if I remember correctly) and you will have your abilities back by the time you leave Irenicus dungeon.
    RAM021
  • perfectblueperfectblue Member Posts: 10
    @Sed, Right I read that. But thats actually where I came up with the question.

    "a level 8 fighter who dual-classes to mage can reach the highest level of mage without penalty in Throne of Bhaal " Throne of Baal being keyword here, im interested at the end of BG1 only.

    So where could we expect this same fighter/mage to be at the end of BG1? Fighter level 8, Fighter level 7, or maybe Fighter level 8, Mage level 2.

    Etc I hope that clarifies.
  • 10thLich10thLich Member Posts: 99
    edited August 2012
    The Original BG1 + Tales of the Sword Coast had an xp cap of 161k xp, which means, that the following could be done:

    dual:
    Fighter 8 (125k xp)->Mage 9 (135k xp)
    As you don't have the abundant sources of easy xp of BG2 it will take a while to get there, you'll probably have to grind for some time if you don't want to have half a dual-class for more than half of the game.

    [Yes, the sum of their parts is more than the xp cap, but that's a quirk of the infinity engine. Dual-classing works this way: As soon as you dual-class your xp reset to zero. Moreover it only looks at the level, when it comes to regain the use of your first class. Both of those are under the xp cap of 161k xp]

    multi:
    Fighter 7/Mage 7
    You remain usable from start to end.

    If BG1:EE implements the xp cap from BG2:ToB you can forget about that dual-class, as that F/M multi-class can reach everything you need in BG1:EE.

    Yes, theoretically you could reach a higher level in both classes with the BG2:ToB xp cap in place, but the majority of your time spent on the game would revolve aroung grinding enough xp to regain your first class.

    10th
    RAM021
  • SedSed Member Posts: 790
    @perfectblue It depends on what you actually want to get out of your playthrough.
    If you want to focus on BG1 and play a as a mage, I'd say that you need to dual at 4 or 5, otherwise it will take too long and you will basically have finished the game as a fighter.

    For BG2, just play as a fighter all through BG1 and make the dual spec once you reach BG2 (though you could just re-roll a new char for that purpose as well).
  • pablo200783pablo200783 Member Posts: 96
    Always like pure class fast level up and some dual combination for example imoen rogue / wizard but not all dual are good, multi class level up too slowly.
  • perfectblueperfectblue Member Posts: 10

    Always like pure class fast level up and some dual combination for example imoen rogue / wizard but not all dual are good, multi class level up too slowly.

    Yes, the amount of time for either is not very appealing. Dual class seems to be a power house for end game content, but really what use is that if you can't fully enjoy your character for awhile. Perhaps if it I limited the number in my party I would reconsider.

    Multi class is very slow to level and really feels like the jack of all trades master of none.

  • LeronisLeronis Member Posts: 112
    @10thLich said:
    dual:
    Fighter 8 (125k xp)->Mage 9 (135k xp)
    As you don't have the abundant sources of easy xp of BG2 it will take a while to get there, you'll probably have to grind for some time if you don't want to have half a dual-class for more than half of the game.

    [Yes, the sum of their parts is more than the xp cap, but that's a quirk of the infinity engine. Dual-classing works this way: As soon as you dual-class your xp reset to zero. Moreover it only looks at the level, when it comes to regain the use of your first class. Both of those are under the xp cap of 161k xp]

    @Malbortus said:
    What has not been mentioned here, and it's rather essential in the dual class discussion, is that BG has an experience cap. This makes dual-classing free, to some extent.

    An example. Under the xp cap of 161,000 as in BG+TotSC, a mage can only ever level up to 9 (135,000 xp). He/she can never reach level 10 (250,000 xp). That means 161,000 - 135,000 = 26,000 xp remain unused as they do not lead to a higher level.
    This gap is where dual-classing comes in: those 26,000 xp will buy you a level 5 fighter (16,000 xp), a level 5 cleric (13,000 xp) or even a level 6 thief (20,000 xp)!


    Which is correct? Should we dual our fighters to mages after level 5 or after level 8 if we want to reach level 9 mage without cheats?
  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    Well fighter/thieves are one of the fastest leveling multi-class combos. They level pretty quick to me.
    RAM021
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    They're both correct. The 'reset to zero' doesn't mean you get 161K for the 2nd class. It means that the game counts the minimum XP for the first class' level toward that 161K and the left-over gets used for the next class.
  • LeronisLeronis Member Posts: 112
    edited November 2012
    @reedmilfam
    You say they are both correct, then agree with Malbortus that the sum of the parts can NOT exceed the XP cap?
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    edited November 2012
    They can't both be correct and while the issue of how the infinity engine worked for BG1 is interesting, the real question is how this will work for BG:EE. Even if there was a bug allowing you to gain 250K+ XP dual classing in a game with a 161K cap, that won't mean much to @Leronis if that doesn't carryover to BG:EE.

    I thought it worked like @reedmilfan says (i.e., if you dual a fighter at 140K experience then the minimum to reach his current level - 125K - carries over) but I can't say that for certain.
    Post edited by AHF on
  • jfliederjflieder Member Posts: 115

    Bjjorick, thats a lot of help thanks.

    My intention was to begin the game as a dwarf illusionist and then switch to one of the fighter kits around level 8 or so. From what I can remember dwarfs specifically gain a bonus in illusion magic, and it would be helpful to have as a fighter.

    The class that you dual-class into cannot be a kit.
    RAM021
  • LeronisLeronis Member Posts: 112
    @AHF
    Yes, if there ever really was a "a quirk of the infinity engine" was it bug fixed for EE?

    After some consideration, I'll have my daughter dual to mage after Kensai 5, and I'll dual to mage after Thief 6, simply to keep the challenge up. She won't be some super gish, and I will fail some traps and sneaks. Sporting break for the kobolds.
  • IgnatiusIgnatius Member Posts: 624
    jflieder said:

    Bjjorick, thats a lot of help thanks.

    My intention was to begin the game as a dwarf illusionist and then switch to one of the fighter kits around level 8 or so. From what I can remember dwarfs specifically gain a bonus in illusion magic, and it would be helpful to have as a fighter.

    The class that you dual-class into cannot be a kit.
    Correct, but there's even worse: only human race can dual-class.

    @perfectblue: your gnome illusionist DC to a fighter kit cannot work for 1/ only humans dual-class and 2/ the class your human dual classes into cannot be a kit, has to be the plain class

    Hope this helps.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    It's hard to say it's consistently better to be one thing over another in the Dual/Multi issue (it's usually comparatively simple to say that both are comparatively more powerful than a Single class, but only as a long-term consideration).


    Single Class: Gain class levels, increase power. Simple, and reaches optimum power early. Never below the power curve, but inherently restricted by its nature.

    Ranger - Max level 34, 9d10+75 base HP, Base THAC0 of 0, 3/5/4/4/6 saves (lower is better in general), 2 attacks per round, 15 proficiency points (+2 free points in dual wielding), 17 HLAs - from the Fighter pool, Level 3 Druid Spells.
    Cleric - Max level 40, 9d8+62 HP, Base THAC0 of 6, 2/6/5/8/7 saves, 12 proficiency points, 19 HLAs - from the Cleric pool, Level 7 Cleric Spells. 1 Attack per round, since it's a non-fighter class.

    Dual Class: Gain class levels. Lose them all. Gain a second class' levels until your level in that class is higher than the class you left, then gain all the stuff you lost in the first class again. Longterm note: You don't count your first class' experience for determining HLAs.

    Dual classes that include Fighter may reach Grand Mastery, Multiclasses that include Fighter may not, because apparently Mages can learn level 9 spells fine when multiclassing, but heaven forbid Fighters can learn to swing a sword better.

    Ranger 9 > Cleric 39, 9D10+60 base HP, Base THAC0 of 6 (until the cleric's base THAC0 beats it at level 16, the Ranger 9's THAC0 of 12 applies from level 10 Cleric and up, then advances as a Cleric), 18 HLAs - from the Cleric pool, 18 proficiency points (again, +2 from Ranger Dual Wield, though notably any their Cleric half spends must be on a weapon they didn't advance on their Ranger half), 2/6/5/8/7 saves, all Level 7 Divine spells from both the Cleric and Druid spell lists. 1.5 Attacks per round, as a level 9 Ranger.

    Multiclass: Gain class levels, divide all Exp by 2. Longterm note: Because of the way the Exp cap works, you can actually end up "shorted" your full 8,000,000 exp in classes that don't conveniently level at the 4,000,000 mark or so. Cannot be human (advantage), must be a specific race, and tend to be a bit behind in terms of HP. Maybe. Multiclass characters level up slower than either Dual or Single classes (though they lack the down time of a dual), so their weak point tends to be early on, where their classes haven't quite taken off enough to compensate for one another.

    Ranger/Cleric Max level 21/25; {([9D10+9D8]/2) +34} base HP (give or take, Multiclass HP is a pain in the neck to calculate), 0 base THAC0, 2/5/4/4/6 saves, and 11 proficiency points (+2 free into Dual Wielding), 20 HLAs, 2 attacks per round, and 7th level Cleric/Druid spells.

    Here, the Ranger/Cleric Multiclass tends to be largely superior; they have fewer proficiency points (but Clerics don't really have many weapons to spend that on) and HP, but a better THAC0, saves, and attacks per round, as well as finishing with more HLAs than any other combination - and getting to choose from either the Fighter or Cleric pool for their HLAs.

    Multiclassing also gives triple classes, which, for completion's sake get to:

    Fighter/Mage/Thief: 18/17/22; {[9D10+10D4+10D6]/3) +26} HP (I cannot stress how inaccurate this may be), 3/4/4/4/5 Saves, 2 Attacks per Round, x5 Backstab damage, 10 Proficiency points, 8th level mage spells, 3 base THAC0, 20 HLAs from any HLA pool except Cleric.

    Here, the FMT isn't quite Fighter level with 3 THAC0, or Thief level with however many more thievery points a pure thief might get, or Mage level with only level 8 spells... But he couples a full backstab bonus with two attacks per round, can use any weapon (literally), and can bust out serious spell casting moxie, something no Dual or Single class could emulate (comparing this with a Bard you have a THAC0 7 lower, more thief skills, a higher level of spells castable, and better saves).

    Fighter/Cleric/Mage: 18/19/17, {[9D10+10D4+9D8]/3) +30} HP?, 3 THAC0, 2 Attacks, 2/5/4/4/6 saves, level 7 casting, 10 Proficiency points, 8th level mage spells, 7th level cleric spells, 17 HLAs or so.

    This one actually loses out a bit to a straight Cleric/Mage, since except for the extra attacks and saves, not really getting much out of it.

    Overall:

    If you want to level as fast as possible in exchange for long term power, be single class.

    If you want to be an "X" with a few extra abilities in exchange for 1 or 2 levels off the cap and a long period of borderline uselessness, be dual class.

    If you want to do multiple things well at the expense of slower levelling (and before TOB, probably being less awesome at any particular thing), be multiclass.

    Finally, if you remove the Exp cap, be Multiclass.
    IgnatiusRAM021Zalpha
  • SceptenarSceptenar Member Posts: 606
    Any word on whether or not the ranger/cleric dual class still works like it used to. I mean, can I dual a ranger into a cleric at level 2 and still get the druid spells for the cleric?
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Sceptenar said:

    Any word on whether or not the ranger/cleric dual class still works like it used to. I mean, can I dual a ranger into a cleric at level 2 and still get the druid spells for the cleric?

    I've seen no entry for Ranger/Cleric in the "fixed bugs" section, so one assumes it to be safe.

  • SwordsNotWordsSwordsNotWords Member Posts: 147
    Something I've always wondered about multi/dual classes but never known as I haven't played one in BG2: when you get to SOA how do the strongholds work? Do you get to take your pick? Do you get to do both?
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376

    Something I've always wondered about multi/dual classes but never known as I haven't played one in BG2: when you get to SOA how do the strongholds work? Do you get to take your pick? Do you get to do both?

    In Vanilla SOA, you get your pick but once you pick all other options are closed.

    SwordsNotWords
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    edited November 2012
    BTW alot of guides you read which extol the virtues of dual-classing are written assuming that you're starting in BG2, and don't take into account the tedium of playing a class you don't really want to be for what can be the whole of BG1, this *especially* applies to the infamous Kensai>Mage. I *much* prefer multiclass characters, this reason has a lot to do with it, but I also like to have both classes improving constantly and side by side and playing non-humans.

    Also if dualing CHARNAME (this doesn't apply to NPCs) quite early to get maximum benefits from both classes in BGEE, then you're potentially overly restricting yourself if you want to import your character later into BG2EE
    RAM021
  • SwordsNotWordsSwordsNotWords Member Posts: 147
    I agree that if you intend on taking your character from BGEE to BG2EE (which I presume pretty much all of will be doing) then dualing during BGEE would be unwise.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Yes if dualing in BG1 I would only bother with dualing NPCs. My main character wont be dualed until level 9-13 depending on class.
    Oxford_Guy
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