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Alternative Builds for Kensai/Mage

jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
Hi all,

I just finished a playthrough of BG with a Fighter PC for the nth time and am starting BG2 shortly. I will probably play a Kensage (I only use F/M or R/C builds for my PC). I know F13/M28 is the most popular, but I want to try out another variant if viable.

Assumptions - XP is not an issue. Eventually I will take on Ascension Melissan.

I'm evaluating the following builds:

1. F13/M28
2. F17/M25

#1 offers the highest spell progression, but I find the endgame THAC0 of -10 thereabouts underpowered against Ascension Melissan and gang with AC up to -16 or so.

Appreciate some ideas and reasoning why another build is viable. Thanks much.

J.

Comments

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    K/M multiclass.
  • Stasis_SwordStasis_Sword Member Posts: 91
    FinneousPJ said:

    K/M multiclass.

    ^ This

    I'm assuming you know about Tenser's and find the trade off for improved thaco unacceptable. That leaves more fighter levels as the only option.

    So you could:
    K -> M dual at higher Kensai level
    F/M - For max fighter thaco
    K/M - For even better thaco and damage bonuses

    I think K/M is what you're looking for, and has the advantage of no down time.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    Stasis_Sword said:

    FinneousPJ said:

    K/M multiclass.

    ^ This

    I'm assuming you know about Tenser's and find the trade off for improved thaco unacceptable. That leaves more fighter levels as the only option.

    So you could:
    K -> M dual at higher Kensai level
    F/M - For max fighter thaco
    K/M - For even better thaco and damage bonuses

    I think K/M is what you're looking for, and has the advantage of no down time.
    I've never heard of K/M multi. Is this done via a mod?

    Yes I'm aware of the various options for increasing THAC0, and I don't want to use Tenser's if I can help it. I experimented with K21/M22 before; the added K bonus at L21 was overkill against weak enemies, marginal against strong enemies, but I was often short of L7 and especially L8 spells (gotta love those ADHWs!). I also experimented with L13/M28, but I found the melee performance disappointing even after maxing relevant stats from BG tome runs - sufficient for normal enemies, but unreliable against the toughest bosses with strong AC, and I don't like to miss my hits against them except on natural 1s.
  • ambrennanambrennan Member Posts: 173
    Is this done via a mod?
    EEKeeper
  • Stasis_SwordStasis_Sword Member Posts: 91
    K/M is available via EEKeeper. You would start the game as a Kensai and mod the character to add a mage multi-class.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    Thanks I'll try that.

    What drew me towards K17/M25 were these

    1. +5 THAC0 compared to K13/M28
    2. Better saving throws (+2 PPDM, +1 PP and +1 BW) compared to K13/M28
    3. Mage HLAs maxed at L25 (5 L10 spells plus 3 spell slots)

    I do lose out in spell progression. K13/M28 spell progression is 5/5/5/5/5/6/6/5/4 while K17/M28 is at 5/5/5/5/5/6/5/5/3. -1 L7 slot and -1 L9 slot.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    jackjack said:

    If you're not stuck on Kensai, you could always give a Gnome Fighter/Illusionist a whirl. You'll lose ADHW and other Necromancy spells, but you'll hit so hard you won't miss them.
    Definitely different.
    Plus, Gnomes.

    LOL I have to mod my Human PC for that!

    If someone made a Jan Jansen romance mod I could make a female gnome PC and use a turnip as the portrait ^_^
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    jacobtan said:

    Thanks I'll try that.

    I do lose out in spell progression. K13/M28 spell progression is 5/5/5/5/5/6/6/5/4 while K17/M28 is at 5/5/5/5/5/6/5/5/3. -1 L7 slot and -1 L9 slot.

    I had never calculated this before. I think 5 or 6 level 7 slots doesn't make much of difference, so the only thing you'd really notice is one less level 9 spell. But you could sacrifice that single spell for better thac0/damage, and slightly higher hitpoints. Long downtime though...
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    I would never go beyond 13 when it comes to dual classing, and even 13 is rare for me (I'll stick to 9).

    You'll be so powerful with a 13/xx K/M that anything above that is just overkill. Thac0 should not be a problem for a 13 kensai and a mage of that level (25+) could beat all encounters in the game so your kensai class is a huge bonus, not needed.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited March 2014
    SionIV said:

    I would never go beyond 13 when it comes to dual classing, and even 13 is rare for me (I'll stick to 9).

    You'll be so powerful with a 13/xx K/M that anything above that is just overkill. Thac0 should not be a problem for a 13 kensai and a mage of that level (25+) could beat all encounters in the game so your kensai class is a huge bonus, not needed.

    Yeah, agreed for the most part. It's mainly my play style in combat, which alternates between spellcasting and melee until the battle is over. A L13 Kensai is still somewhat shaky in melee at the endgame and I prefer not to switch gears for my PC.

    A L13 Kensage with THAC0 around -10 will have some difficulty hitting Abazigal and Melissan (AC -16 thereabouts) and even generic Mariliths (AC -13). At THAC0 -10, I will miss Abazigal/Melissan 25% of the time and Mariliths 10% of the time. I prefer to reduce the miss % down to 5% (missing on natural roll of 1). Sometimes, the very first successful hit may decide the course of the battle, so I won't take chances here :)
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    K/M multi is 24/20 at 8 M XP should have about -15 THAC0 with late game ability scores and without magical gear.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    FinneousPJ said:

    K/M multi is 24/20 at 8 M XP should have about -15 THAC0 with late game ability scores and without magical gear.

    Sounds about right. Can't wait to test this combination.

    Base THAC0: 0
    Kensai Bonus @F24: -8
    Strength Bonus @Str 22: -4
    Weapon Bonus @+5: -5
    Spec Bonus @GM: -2
    Final THAC0: -19

    Overkill, I never knew thee!
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    jacobtan said:

    SionIV said:

    I would never go beyond 13 when it comes to dual classing, and even 13 is rare for me (I'll stick to 9).

    You'll be so powerful with a 13/xx K/M that anything above that is just overkill. Thac0 should not be a problem for a 13 kensai and a mage of that level (25+) could beat all encounters in the game so your kensai class is a huge bonus, not needed.

    Yeah, agreed for the most part. It's mainly my play style in combat, which alternates between spellcasting and melee until the battle is over. A L13 Kensai is still somewhat shaky in melee at the endgame and I prefer not to switch gears for my PC.

    A L13 Kensage with THAC0 around -10 will have some difficulty hitting Abazigal and Melissan (AC -16 thereabouts) and even generic Mariliths (AC -13). At THAC0 -10, I will miss Abazigal/Melissan 25% of the time and Mariliths 10% of the time. I prefer to reduce the miss % down to 5% (missing on natural roll of 1). Sometimes, the very first successful hit may decide the course of the battle, so I won't take chances here :)
    Do you take into consideration a strength of 20+ and your +5 weapons when counting Thac0?
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    SionIV said:

    jacobtan said:

    SionIV said:

    I would never go beyond 13 when it comes to dual classing, and even 13 is rare for me (I'll stick to 9).

    You'll be so powerful with a 13/xx K/M that anything above that is just overkill. Thac0 should not be a problem for a 13 kensai and a mage of that level (25+) could beat all encounters in the game so your kensai class is a huge bonus, not needed.

    Yeah, agreed for the most part. It's mainly my play style in combat, which alternates between spellcasting and melee until the battle is over. A L13 Kensai is still somewhat shaky in melee at the endgame and I prefer not to switch gears for my PC.

    A L13 Kensage with THAC0 around -10 will have some difficulty hitting Abazigal and Melissan (AC -16 thereabouts) and even generic Mariliths (AC -13). At THAC0 -10, I will miss Abazigal/Melissan 25% of the time and Mariliths 10% of the time. I prefer to reduce the miss % down to 5% (missing on natural roll of 1). Sometimes, the very first successful hit may decide the course of the battle, so I won't take chances here :)
    Do you take into consideration a strength of 20+ and your +5 weapons when counting Thac0?
    Of course I did. Why wouldn't I?

    Base THAC0 @F13: 8
    Kensai Bonus @F13: -4
    Strength Bonus @Str 22: -4
    Weapon Bonus @+5: -5
    Spec Bonus @GM: -2
    Final THAC0: -7.

    I assume final THAC0 -10 because it is very possible to achieve 25 Str either using Crom Faeyr or doing tome runs in BG. Kensais have no access to gauntlets and the most they can get from equips is another point of THAC0 using the Pale Green Ioun Stone (not a good item on its own).

  • MecirMecir Member Posts: 1
    How about having a bard in the party. Enhanced bard song is great
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    jacobtan said:

    Hi all,

    #1 offers the highest spell progression, but I find the endgame THAC0 of -10 thereabouts underpowered against Ascension Melissan and gang with AC up to -16 or so.

    Appreciate some ideas and reasoning why another build is viable. Thanks much.

    J.

    There are 2 ways to hit enemies: improve your thaco or diminish your opponent's AC. You can boost your (already very low) thaco by using priest spells like Bless, Chant and Aid. They have long casting time, and it's best to be cast in a minor sequencer (which requires Cleric/Mage like Aerie).

    Another way is to use the Spectral Brand+5 special ability Armor Piercing Strike, which lowers your Kensai's thaco by 10 pt in 3 rounds. This method combos well with the second strategy of worsening the opponent's AC. After activating this ability, equip the Answerer+4. Each hit from this weapon increase the opponent's AC by 2 pt penalty and the penalty is cumulative.
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    @Mecir‌ Yup. I usually include Haer'Dalis in my party. Even if singing is all he will do, the +4 attack and damage bonus for all characters is fantastic and the rest is icing. Some players consider him crap (flowery talk, disrupts Aerie romance, needs babying, etc.), so I'm glad I'm not alone in my opinion.

    @bbear‌ Piercing Strike sounds interesting enough to test out, not for my PC but for another front-liner. Will experiment with it with the console. Prior to this, I've already assigned another front-liner to use Answerer +4 with Kundane +2, but I haven't considered Piercing Strike before.
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