Greater Wolfwere (spoiler)
RandyMcStud
Member Posts: 71
In previous playthroughs, Karoug has never given me much trouble, but in the enhanced edition, he was MUCH harder.
Whereas the Sword of Balduran used the large sword proficiency in the original, which you were almost certain to have a warrior class specialised in (4 out of 6 warriors in BG1 start with specialisation in large swords) in BGEE it uses the far more specific proficiency of bastard sword, which only Ajantis starts with, and which is a lousy weapon specialisation in both BG 1 and 2, only in TOB is it worthwhile. Consequently, unless you have Ajantis, you probably have no one who can use this weapon effectively. As for the dagger, very few warriors will put any points into this either.
On top of that, Greater Wolfweres are given BG2 levels of regeneration (I dont recall this being the case in the original), which is extremely hard to overcome with one warrior wielding a bastard sword they arent proficient in, hasted to only 2 attacks per round and missing the large majority of the time.
In my game, I encountered Karoug with no one even proficient in bastard swords and only my monk proficient in daggers (who being a monk couldnt be hasted), and as for offensive casters, I only had Edwin. Needless to say, I had to resort to cheese (reload until he failed his save vs emotion (even at a -6 penalty this is very unreliable) so Dorn could actually hit him, and then used haste to stack the blackguard poison high enough to overwhelm the regen).
And having a party with no warriors specialised in either dagger or bastard sword probably describes the majority of parties. Many more parties still wont have a blackguard either.
By contrast, in the original, you could almost certainly count on having a warrior who would have 4 attacks a round when hasted at a good THAC0 and if Karoug regenerated his health rapidly in the original, it was still no great difficulty for any specialised warrior to overcome with haste.
This represents a massive buff to the difficulty of greater wolfweres over the original which isnt really appropriate, especially when they arent avoidable. And I would imagine that many people playing through their BG first time would simply hit a wall here.
Whereas the Sword of Balduran used the large sword proficiency in the original, which you were almost certain to have a warrior class specialised in (4 out of 6 warriors in BG1 start with specialisation in large swords) in BGEE it uses the far more specific proficiency of bastard sword, which only Ajantis starts with, and which is a lousy weapon specialisation in both BG 1 and 2, only in TOB is it worthwhile. Consequently, unless you have Ajantis, you probably have no one who can use this weapon effectively. As for the dagger, very few warriors will put any points into this either.
On top of that, Greater Wolfweres are given BG2 levels of regeneration (I dont recall this being the case in the original), which is extremely hard to overcome with one warrior wielding a bastard sword they arent proficient in, hasted to only 2 attacks per round and missing the large majority of the time.
In my game, I encountered Karoug with no one even proficient in bastard swords and only my monk proficient in daggers (who being a monk couldnt be hasted), and as for offensive casters, I only had Edwin. Needless to say, I had to resort to cheese (reload until he failed his save vs emotion (even at a -6 penalty this is very unreliable) so Dorn could actually hit him, and then used haste to stack the blackguard poison high enough to overwhelm the regen).
And having a party with no warriors specialised in either dagger or bastard sword probably describes the majority of parties. Many more parties still wont have a blackguard either.
By contrast, in the original, you could almost certainly count on having a warrior who would have 4 attacks a round when hasted at a good THAC0 and if Karoug regenerated his health rapidly in the original, it was still no great difficulty for any specialised warrior to overcome with haste.
This represents a massive buff to the difficulty of greater wolfweres over the original which isnt really appropriate, especially when they arent avoidable. And I would imagine that many people playing through their BG first time would simply hit a wall here.
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The switch from bg1 prof. slots to bg2 came as a shock to someone who hadn't played bg2, for me.
I personally think Karoug is a well-designed boss, as opposed to Aec'Letec who just has a BS insta-kill ability which makes an otherwise easy battle force reloads. Karoug himself isn't that difficult - it's just that you fight him in a very closed off space making AoE damage undesirable, and there isn't a lot of room for your more fragile party members to snipe at the wolves from a safe spot. I am inclined to agree he's a little too difficult for a first timer, but I wouldn't say the proficiency changes would make him impossible to some players.
Just yesterday, I beat Karoug on my fighter/mage PC game with Dorn dual-wielding Kondar and Balduran's Sword and as much AC as I could fit on him tanking while my PC and Neera barraged him with Wands of Fire from the distance. Dorn had no proficiencies in Bastard Swords, but together with the high bonus to hit/damage the anti-shapeshifter items give along with a potion of Giant Strength and Dradeel's Wolfbane Amulet still gave him a reasonable number of hits. Greater Malison (from a scroll) and Slow meant that Karoug, while being a beast to take out, wasn't hitting that hard (and hint: slowed targets also regenerate slower) so it was a matter of not losing my head and being patient. Can a first-timer get through Karoug? I would say it's entirely possible, if they use every resource available to them. If they sold everything they came across aside from their standard equipment, then yes, it's probably impossible, or at least a tough struggle, but BG doesn't hold your hand - you learn, adapt and try different strategies.
It once never occurred to me either how much easier the game becomes (and I play with SCS) when you decide to use all those potions and wands the game practically hands to you.
And Karoug is avoidable, the alternative isn't exactly pleasant though. You can kill Kaishas to escape the island.
Unless they are dual classed the highest APR a fighter could get in the original was 3 with haste (because of no dual wielding and no access to grandmastery).
Since you are limited in the number of summons you can create and since you don't benefit from the more broad weapon proficiency categories I'd say the fight is harder than in the originals. But that is balanced out by most of the rest of the game being easier.
As for the regen, I want to say that it has always been that high, even in Vanilla BG. I remember him being a total beast (pun intended) even the first time through.
This would be my suggestion as well - use potions of strength and speed to offset the penalties in THAC and APR.
In my current playthrough, my party leader is a vanilla ranger with 3 points in dual wielding. She dual wielded the knife and bastard sword and smashed Karoug to pieces with a few crit hits in quick succession. Like I said above, the other enemies in the room were more of a hassle, especially the one who starts off casting spells.
...but there was no time to count to three.
Melfs minute meteors were the game-saver that time around, but it was touch and go!
And I am not saying Karoug cant be beaten, it took me only 2 failed attempts to devise my strategy, and then only a few more until a lucked out and he failed his save, so as a fairly experienced player, it wasnt even that difficult. My point is that the changes to proficiencies alone have effectively made this fight vastly harder than the original game, which doesnt really seem appropriate.
Assuming your level 8 warrior has used a storm giant strength potion is hasted and wielding the +4 sword vs lycanthropes:
THAC0: Base 13, + 6 Strength + 4 Enchantment -4 non proficiency penalty = 7.
The greater wolfwere's AC is -3 so that means you need to roll 10 or higher, so a 55% chance to hit.
Damage per hit: 2d4+4+12 = 18-24 which is 21 on average, at 2 attacks per round with a 55% chance to hit. With a 5% crit chance, that is an average damage per round of (21x0.5 + 42x0.05) x 2 = 25.2. Clearly, when your opponent is healing 30 hp per round and has around 70 health, that damage isnt going to cut it.
Now for specialised, and using the BG1 version of haste, you have 4 attacks per round at a THAC0 of 2 (meaning you have an 80% chance to hit), dealing an average of 23 per hit. So your damage per round is:
(23x0.75 + 46x0.05) x 4 = 78.2. Even healing 30 hit points per round, that will kill Karoug in less than 2 rounds, hence why I didnt even remember him having really rapid health regen in the original.
So that is my point, this fight is FAR more difficult than it was in the original. A person playing the game for the first time, without any metagame knowledge (and bare in mind there are the 4 other wolfweres) is going to find this fight unreasonably hard.
But then it isn't a problem with the conversion of 'Large sword' proficiency to the more specific 'Bastard Sword' proficiency as a party without a fighter couldn't have either. And then it becomes a problem, not with a change in the game mechanics, but with your choice of party. Sux, I admit, but there are combinations that are going to be tougher.
If you aren't saying that you don't have ANY fighters but you do in fact have at least one fighter class in your group but that they haven't spent any points in Bastard sword PROFICIENCY, then what we are saying is that you don't need to have spent any points in proficiency slot for Bastard Sword in order to wield the sword. And you can use it to destroy Karoug. I've done it. It takes a bit longer and requires someone with the sword and someone with the dagger (plus some arcane assistance as well), but it is achievable.
Also, a thief with the dagger and several potions of invisibility (or spells), can still backstab for devastating damage in that battle.
Yeah, it's a change, but not anything that is game breaking in my view.
Honestly, I have NEVER even bothered to filch Baldaran's Sword for this fight, and in 15 years (including now four playthroughs in EE) I've only had a problem with this fight once. And that just had to do with the particular mix of characters (not enough heavy melee hitters) in one party I was playing.
I don't think there's a balance problem at all. You're going up against lycanthropes, you know you're going up against lycanthropes (by the time you get to the ship), prepare accordingly.
Proficiency and specialization is good to have, but not required.
A greater wolfwere's AC is 2, with his dexterity bonus (for 19 dexterity) that would become -2. The non-proficiency penalty for warriors is +2 to their Thac0.
So with the Sword of Balduran (under the scenario described) you'd have a Thac0 of 5 (when fighting the wolfweres). WIth Karoug having -2 AC you'd need to roll a 7 or higher to hit him (70% chance).
(21x0.65 + 42x0.05) x 2.5 (includes level 7 1/2 APR) = 39.375
With specialisation in BG1 you'd have a Thac0 of 2 against him (85% chance).
(23x0.8 + 46*0.05) x 4 = 82.8
There is a huge difference but you can still do more damage than he can regenerate using a level 7 hasted+strength boosted warrior with Balduran's sword.
You can also get Dorn in BGEE who can raise the AC and Thac0 of Karoug by 2 (and lower his damage by 2). Plus Dorn has Poison Weapon. With 2.5 attacks per round (hasted with no proficiency) that alone can largely negate the regeneration (if he hits all the time). Even just hitting once a round means another 12 damage/round. Dorn's questline also gives Albruin, which hits as a silver weapon.
You get access to new spells like Spook, Glitterdust, and Minor Sequencer for dealing with him. At level 7 casting two magic missiles spells from a sequencer would do an average of 28 damage (35 at level 9).
Its a more difficult fight in BGEE but that is balanced out with the rest of the game being a lot easier. Also in BGEE new players can lower the difficulty for the fight to the easiest setting without taking an experience hit when they kill him (in the original doing this would get you 50% less experience).
Now, someone attempting to SOLO the beast might have trouble.
At the end of the day, I can see how going from a General "Large Sword" to a specific "Bastard Sword" might be a bit of a jarring thing. I personally prefer the more specific sword type choices as the entire game is about the choices you make actually having an impact on the game play.