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How much cheese can you tolerate?

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  • CaradocCaradoc Member Posts: 92
    edited April 2014
    Yep, same failed logic can indeed be applied to any combat situation in the game.

    Casting protection spells for instance can be seen as cheese because those protections make certain encounters trivial. Like basillisks become a joke with certain protection spell.

    Isn't the alternative basicly just to throw a dice and hope for the best? :)
    the_spyderatcDaveBelgarathMTHGotural
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I think, for some people, the cheese factor isn't in how powerful the shield is, but that unless you KNEW beforehand that you had to face an entire lair of Beholders, why would you have purchased it in the first place? Same applies for basilisks and that protection scroll. You only have a limited number of spells at that point, why would you choose something that was so situation specific unless you knew?

    For me, I don't go looking for basilisks until I release Branwen from the stoned form. I'm not sure if there's a story how she got that way, but I take that (in my own mind) that she talks about Basilisks in the area and that prompts me to be more prepared.

    Same with the shield. I don't buy it until I hear about the cult of the unseeing eye. Then it's pretty much a lock that I will need it.

    The other option is that people like to artificially make things harder for themselves, so they call these things cheese. I suppose it might make some people feel better that they defeated the encounter without having taken the 'easy' path. And that's fair. That's why people do the 'No-reload' challenges and the like.
    JuliusBorisovBelgarathMTH
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Branwen is petrified by tranzig IIRC.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    mumumomo said:

    Branwen is petrified by tranzig IIRC.

    Not in vanilla, that content is added by BG1 NPC Project.
    jackjack
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    mumumomo said:

    Branwen is petrified by tranzig IIRC.

    For me, I don't go looking for basilisks until I release Branwen from the stoned form. I'm not sure if there's a story how she got that way, but I take that (in my own mind) that she talks about Basilisks in the area and that prompts me to be more prepared.

    LOL. I tend to rewrite bits of story with my own imagination.
    jackjack
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Are you sure of that crevsdaak? I've never installed any mod.
    Maybe i read it somewhere and assumed it was from the vanilla game
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    edited April 2014
    @mumumomo‌ @CrevsDaak‌ It is from vanilla. She does not react when she sees him, though. A bit of an anticlimax.

    @the_spyder‌ actually no reload is not to feel more superior, i'd think. I am just doing one and it is fun to ponder consequences. I was always running head first before, though. Maybe you already do it carefully :-)
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @MacHurto - no offense was intended. I didn't mean that any one philosophy was the reason for different ways of playing the game. if you get a sense of accomplishment off of the way(s) you play the game? Great. If you merely enjoy the story and the game play, but want to add your own challenges? Wonderful. It's all kinds of good. And no denigration was intended.
    MacHurto
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    @the_spyder‌ none taken!
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited April 2014
    I will cheese before officially starting a playthrough, so I will do tome runs to boost stats, soak XP to help with late dual-classing, etc.

    But once the playthrough has started, no more cheese. No fake talk, no control circlet abuse, no importing of characters halfway through the game for infinite loot, etc.

    For items like Shield of Balduran, I'll keep it on hand as an option, but usually I'll end up experimenting with other methods to win, and eventually one of them goes through and I don't have to use it.

    So it goes: cheese before official playthrough, RP cheese during playthrough, desperation cheese if stumped (hardly if ever).
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @jacobtan What's an official playthrough?
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited April 2014
    As I define it, when I'm satisfied with all the preparation work from charting out my planned path, starting level and stats, boosted my stats to where I want them to be, and start a game without dropping halfway :)

    I typically plan out these things before a game:

    1. What party I want (I choose my NPCs before starting the game. No switching of NPCs midway)
    2. What items to use for characters (I fill up a spreadsheet listing out which character to use what item)
    3. Sequence of adventuring
    (which map to go and when to do it)
    4. Stats I want to have

    I will get annoyed if things don't go according to plan, so I have to do the planning and preparation beforehand. And yes, I have OCD. I book my flights 9 months in advance, hunt for hotel reviews and save the links, and keep color-coded, A3-sized spreadsheets of my travel schedule ^_^
    CrevsDaakEadwyn_G8keeper
  • iuventasiuventas Member Posts: 95
    My Charname just set eight spike traps under Demogorgon.
    I cheese through everything, everyone and in every possible way, but right now I feel slightly disgusted with how cheesy that was.
    MacHurtoCrevsDaakelminster
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    It is very arguable what constitutes "cheese". To call a tactic "cheese" is to express an opinion, not a fact.

    Personally, I consider reloading to be the ultimate cheese. Therefore, I will gladly use any tactic I can think of or have read about that will get me through the encounter without having to reload the game.

    It seems to me that if a player doesn't do that, then he or she is just reloading over and over until lucky dice rolls occur. Isn't that "cheese"? Or, the player is using metaknowledge to know exactly which potions to drink, exactly which items to use, and exactly which spells to have memorized. That's not "cheese"?
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Branwen mentions being petrified by Tranzig in her charmed dialog, which was in the original BG1.

    ...Cheese, feh. I find it more satisfying to beat the game without cheap tactics.
    elminster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    There are actually two dialogues she points out that tranzig turned her to stone.

    When you accept her into your party

    "I am glad to be part of your war party. I will not make you regret your decision. A word of caution though: beware of the dog that entrapped me in stone. Tranzig he called himself. He was in the employ of a mercenary group, but I do not know the name. I shall see him dead before I see the shores of home again!"


    When charmed

    "I have not much to tell you. I was in the employ of an adventuring group that dared to attack unarmed merchants. I battled them bravely, but a dog named Tranzig entrapped me in stone. I shall see his head leave his body if it is the last thing I do! "
    CrevsDaak
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Cool. New stuff I did not know. I guess I just never paid that much attention to her intro speech or I'd have picked up on that. Ah well, I guess I am going to have to find another 'Reason' to be adequately prepared for basilisks.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    If you go north when you enter the basilisks area you will first see a few stone statues. That's a good hint.
    CrevsDaakjackjack
  • FinaLfrontFinaLfront Member Posts: 260
    I am mostly a 2, although in BG2 I find myself dipping down into the 3's from time to time.

    Why I still like BG1, it's easy to 2 or 4 the whole thing. BG2 however, has much more content and challenging scenarios, which is equally good.

    The amount of deadly encounters in BG2 are just too numerous. I find myself hitting that L key way more than I'd like to admit. Heck, just a band of lowly sewer kobolds have the power to end your group with 1 lucky confusion spell.

    Here is an example of why I'm a 2. Last night I finished the Unseeing Eye quest at a pretty low level. No shield of Balduran, but I did use the power of stealth to justify my meta. I would find a number of these deadly little gauths while scouting for traps. Once the whole place was cleared I let loose a duo of earth and air elemental to safely clean the place out. Cheesy?

    I did break one of my rules with scribing scrolls that I'm not too proud of. I generally let scribe failures go as is, but when I failed to scribe the last glitterdust in the game, after quaffing a potion of genius and mind focusing (98% to scribe scrolls) I fail... Come on... Really? Yeah... L
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,806
    The only cheese I use regularly is meta-gaming: knowing what I need to prep for a certain encounter. 'Encounter X will come, so I will need to memorize spells Y, Z, etc.' even though the character wouldn't know.

    Lots of easy-kill tactics I don't even know, except the off-screen nuking I sometimes use (but usually aimed by scouting, so it's RP-ed a little).

    Other than that, I try to be mostly vegan.
    CrevsDaak
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Now that's some mighty fine cheese. Where's the wine?
    jackjackCrevsDaak
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited April 2014
    It depends on what you classify as 'cheese'.

    I won't use traps because i find them to be so powerful to the point of breaking the game.

    I'm having a hard time playing with an Inquisitor nowadays (or Keldorn) because their dispel magic is just over the top.

    I won't use Robe of Vecna or Vhailor's helm

    I'll use the Shield of Balduran but when i buy it i'll also throw a die and randomly remove a stat point to balance it out. If i'm playing a Fighter i'll probably not use it, as i might end up losing a STR or CON. If i'm playing a cleric i'll use it. It has to be CHARNAME and not any NPC's.

    I won't use cloud kill and lock the door to a room, but i'll use Mislead and backstab because that's clever mechanics.

    I always play No-reload games so there really is only one chance or way to do a fight, this limits the cheese in my opinion.

    I do use protection from magic scrolls because they are so rare. I very rarely use protection from undead scrolls as i find them very cheesy and they are everywhere. I might use one if i have to get Mazzy early in my games.
  • NecomancerNecomancer Member Posts: 622
    You know, I'm reminded back when I started DMing and even now how I'd have people make characters who have insanely powerful builds that basicly destroyed everything unless I threw challenges far too strong at them and that forced the other players to suck. I could, of course, counter their ability specifically but thats a whole other problem since I'm basicly making their character useless. It also ment I had to plan near every encounter around them or make all encounters a breeze.

    Essentially what I'm saying is I'm okay with cheese in a video game...sometimes, but in a table top game it really is kinda annoying.
    jackjackelminsterCrevsDaak
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