"you'll be so much behind the blade with a F/M/T that he'll outperform you from level 1 to pretty much the last boss in ToB when you're doing a full party"
The situation is not that clear :
Even not taking the thieving skills into account :
at 0 xp, the FMT is better at fighting thanks to exceptionnal strength and weapon spec and better at casting -> advantage FMT
at 60000xp (mid BG1), the FMT is level 5/5/6. The bard is level 7. The FMT has : better THACO, better damage, roughly same casting capacity. -> advantage FMT
at 161kx (endBG1), the FMT is level 6/6/7. The bard is level 10. The FMT has roughly the same THACO and damage (19 str for both). The blade has better HP and better casting (having access to level 4 spells) -> advantage blade
at 220k xp (irenicus dungeon in BG2) : the FMT is 7/7/8. the blade is 11. The FMT has better THACO, better damage (1 permanent extra APR between the spec and level 7 fighter), same casting -> advantage FMT
at 1m xp (mid SOA) the FMT is 9/10/11 the blade is 14 The FMT has better THACO, better damage (1/2 extra APR), better HP, same casting -> advantage FMT
at 3m xp (end of SOA) the FMT is 12/12/14 the blade is 23 The FMT has better THACO, better damage (1/2 extra APR). the blade has much better casting-> advantage blade
at 4mxp (early TOB) the FMT is 13/13/16, the blade is 28 and basically does not progress anymore.
The FMT is then MUCH better at fighting AND better at casting, having access to higher level spells.
the more you get into TOB, the worse it becomes for the blade since they basically do not progress after 3mxp while the FMT keeps getting better and better
Overall, for group play, even without taking thieving skills and backstab into consideration :
- the FMT is better for all BG1, save for the very end (160kxp), early SOA and all TOB. - The blade is better for the very end of BG1 (when the get to level 10, not before), and the end of SOA.
If you add thieving skills into the equation, there is really no debate, even for group play.
The blade is not bad, far from it but it really does not compare with the FMT, which is completely OP
Another thing regarding enhanced bard song. I fail to see how +4 thaco/damage is THAT great assuming a group with : 3 fighter types Haer dalis singing 1 cleric casting 1 mage casting
that would basically enhance 15 attacks/round -> 60 extra damage if haer dalis was attacking he probably end up doing more
"you'll be so much behind the blade with a F/M/T that he'll outperform you from level 1 to pretty much the last boss in ToB when you're doing a full party"
The situation is not that clear :
Even not taking the thieving skills into account :
at 0 xp, the FMT is better at fighting thanks to exceptionnal strength and weapon spec and better at casting -> advantage FMT
at 60000xp (mid BG1), the FMT is level 5/5/6. The bard is level 7. The FMT has : better THACO, better damage, roughly same casting capacity. -> advantage FMT
at 161kx (endBG1), the FMT is level 6/6/7. The bard is level 10. The FMT has roughly the same THACO and damage (19 str for both). The blade has better HP and better casting (having access to level 4 spells) -> advantage blade
at 220k xp (irenicus dungeon in BG2) : the FMT is 7/7/8. the blade is 11. The FMT has better THACO, better damage (1 permanent extra APR between the spec and level 7 fighter), same casting -> advantage FMT
at 1m xp (mid SOA) the FMT is 9/10/11 the blade is 14 The FMT has better THACO, better damage (1/2 extra APR), better HP, same casting -> advantage FMT
at 3m xp (end of SOA) the FMT is 12/12/14 the blade is 23 The FMT has better THACO, better damage (1/2 extra APR). the blade has much better casting-> advantage blade
at 4mxp (early TOB) the FMT is 13/13/16, the blade is 28 and basically does not progress anymore.
The FMT is then MUCH better at fighting AND better at casting, having access to higher level spells.
the more you get into TOB, the worse it becomes for the blade since they basically do not progress after 3mxp while the FMT keeps getting better and better
Overall, for group play, even without taking thieving skills and backstab into consideration :
- the FMT is better for all BG1, save for the very end (160kxp), early SOA and all TOB. - The blade is better for the very end of BG1 (when the get to level 10, not before), and the end of SOA.
If you add thieving skills into the equation, there is really no debate, even for group play.
The blade is not bad, far from it but it really does not compare with the FMT, which is completely OP
1.) At level 0 the blade will outperform the fighter because an offensive spin blade with a ranged weapon will do much better than a fighter. A blade with darts or throwing daggers and offensive spin will out damage a F/M/T at level 0.
2.) I love how you pick 60 000 experience as if you had picked 70 000 experience instead the bard had been level 8, while the F/M/T would have been the same.
3.) The blade actually have more spells than the mage at 220K XP not to mention he is casting at a much higher level. The fighter won't have improved haste yet, so a blade with offensive spin will deal maximum damage and have only 1 APR less if both are using kundane or belm and the fighter is hasted. That's a 10 pure damage on a katana while the fighter can deal 1-10. I agree that the fighter is better in melee, but not by that much.
4.) Again the 1 million is hilarious as the blade got level 14 at 800 000 experience and his next level would be 1 100 000. So let's pick 1 100 000 instead and you're talking about a level 10 mage and 15 blade. The blade has one more level 4 spells but one less level 1 and 2 spells. A level 4 spell is much more important so this goes to the blade, not to mention you're casting at 5 levels higher than the mage.
5.) Once you get to ToB most of the game is over anyway and both the F/M/T AND the blade can easily solo the rest.
- The blade is better at early levels because of offensive spin, and he's better at the end of BG as well. - The blade is better from the start of SoA until the end, he will always have better spell casting in SoA and he's casting with a much higher level.
It really comes down to if you're playing with a full party or not. I also value the thieving skills of the F/M/T and i very much enjoy the blade's lore which even if halved is pretty insane.
The blade will pretty much have better spell casting than the F/M/T from level 8 and forward. I really feel you should take a new look at offensive spin, especially with ranged weapons.
A F/M would have beat the blade, i'll agree to this.
A F/M/T would have beat the blade in a smaller party, i'll agree to this.
Both the F/M/T and F/M are disgustingly overpowered and broken, that one single class can somewhat challenge them is pretty amazing in itself.
1- the blade is better that the FMT for 20 seconds per day at level 1. 2- You do have to pick some xp values. I picked them quite randomly. At level 8, the blade has 3/3/1 for spells. The FMT has 4/2/2 casting and better fighting. I'll still pick the FMT 3- funny as here you don't mention that i picked the exact xp value favoring the blade. Point taken that the blade casting is mildly better. But at that point, the FMT is already better at fighting 4- i don't get your point.
The blade got his last level at 880k. the next one at 1.1M. 1M is exactly in the middle. For the FMT : last level of warrior was at 750k, next at 1.5, last level of mage at 750k next at 1.125 and last level of thief at 660, next at 1.32
So both class are basically halfway through their next level.
at 1.1M, blade 15 is 33332 while the level 10 mage is 44322. I'll give you again mildly better casting for the blade but much better fighting for the FMT
5- i like how you discard the last "third" of the game by saying both class can easily solo it. Let's face it, a FMT will solo EVERYTHING with ease. I don't think that's the real criteria there.
Casting wise, the blade is better from level 8 to 3M xp. From there having access to level 7 and 8 spells is MUCH more valuable than spellcasting level.
Your conclusion is pretty much based on the fact that blade is better at casting (which they are in SOA) but totally discard the fact than the FMT is WAY better at fighting and at thieving.
don't get me wrong, i played blade, i liked it (even if i find lore to be completely useless). But it really does not compare with the OP FMT, even in groups IMO
But still the point of this topic is how to improve a specific blade for the topic creator. The answer should not be mod the game to change said characters class unless they were specifically asking to change said characters class and wanted suggestions for that.
If my PC is playing as a F/M/T, F/M or M/T I personally wouldn't take a Blade. But playing as anything else taking Haer Dalis is a great addition.
@mumumomo plays mostly solo no reload, so obviously picks the full utility offered by the F/M/T over a Blade. I haven't been a Blade pc since before BGEE came out, I like the F/M/T better even in a full party of 6.
Of course using mods such as Rogue Rebalancing or an XP cap remover that allows F/M/T to get level 9 spells would be a completely different discussion and we're already getting off topic.
Although I feel obliged to point out that whereas rogue rebalancing gives Blades their proper level 7 & 8 spells, the XP cap remover flat out breaks the game, particularly in the case of multi classes. They're not really analogous at all.
Back to the original topic, the best use of haer dalis IMO is : - dual wield 2 speed weapons - buff a lot (stoneskin, mirror image, PFMW, improved haste). Don't bother with tenser's before you face THACO problems. Tenser will make you weaker defensively (HP is useless compared to another cast of stoneskin of PFMW) - kill everything
This is also why i don't find the extra level of spell casting of the blade to be that amazing : they cast mostly buffs.
The only spells they have on which it truly makes a difference are dispel magic (this one is nice) and skull trap/flame arrow. However even at level 20, the damage you can make with these spells (35 on average with a successful saving throw) is quite neglectable compared to what you will do in 1 round of attack at 8 APR (something closer to 120)
Although I feel obliged to point out that whereas rogue rebalancing gives Blades their proper level 7 & 8 spells, the XP cap remover flat out breaks the game, particularly in the case of multi classes. They're not really analogous at all.
Agreed that we should leave XP cap removers out of the discussion. In fact, I am uncomfortable with even the Rogue Rebalancing mod itself. Compared to PnP wizards, wizards are also shortchanged of 2 spells per level. If I have to rebalance the abilities of two classes (Rogue+Bard), I will find myself wanting to rebalance all.
Agreed that we should leave XP cap removers out of the discussion. In fact, I am uncomfortable with even the Rogue Rebalancing mod itself. Compared to PnP wizards, wizards are also shortchanged of 2 spells per level. If I have to rebalance the abilities of two classes (Rogue+Bard), I will find myself wanting to rebalance all.
That was my point, that using tools like the rebalancing mod to make Blade's better or an xp cap remover to make F/M/T's better should be left out of the discussion. It's good to point out they're available to be used, but pointless to use them as a reason as to which class is better.
But Haer Dalis is not a FMT and there are not FMTs recruitable. The only thing that you can do to use a FMT is using EEKeeper but i don't like changing npc with EEKeeper, i don't like to cheat.
But Haer Dalis is not a FMT and there are not FMTs recruitable. The only thing that you can do to use a FMT is using EEKeeper but i don't like changing npc with EEKeeper, i don't like to cheat.
Alternatively, you can look at it as using a second multiplayer character that you created but with the story of the NPC. If it is still a valid class combination like F/M/T it is not all that bad. Blatant cheat will be along the lines of... modding a character into something that the game does not allow
I want to try Haer Dalis and other npcs i haven't tried yet. I want only know how to improve it at the best cause i'm using SCS mod with insane difficulty with a party of 6.
Blade is just not a very good class, but you can eke some decent use out of Haer'dalis with the following:
Put a proficiency point in daggers and have him use the Boomerang Dagger +2 as a melee weapon, and later the Firetooth Dagger. Use Kundane in the other hand. This will give him 4 attacks per round. Once he gets HLA, he can use the scarlet ninjato thingy instead of Kundane which you give to someone else.
Give him a strength girdle or ogre gauntlets, preferably the girdle so he can wear some gauntlets that improve Thac0. Use the Girdle of Fortitude after every rest.
Give him the Ioun stone with -1 Thac0 and +10% HP. He can use Helm of Balduran once he gets HLA if you want, but it's not really necessary as he should have Stoneskin on at all times.
Use Tenser's Transformation whenever you don't need him to cast any other spells for a while.
I think Blade is a very strong class; the main problem of which is that the F/M is generally even better.
I consider the F/M to be the better comparison than F/M/T since the only thief skill of a Blade is pickpocket.
But since HD is the closest thing to a F/M that Baldur's Gate has too offer in companions, he is one of the strongest available companions.
Having mage spells & defensive spin makes him the most tanky companion when it counts and there are basically two scenario's:
You rest a lot, especially for important battles, in which case HD will always have an awesome array of self buffs.
You avoid resting, in which case you want him for the additional Improved Haste slots.
Either way he's great. Definitely better than all the Beamdog added party members - maybe unless if you rely very heavily on Nahal's with Neera.
Using Boomerang Dagger with Belm honestly seems like a waste to me, since Belm synergizes best with a weapon with really strong on-hit effects like Flail of Ages (slow + elemental damage), Celestial Fury (stun), Blackrazor (level drain), Foebane (larloch), etc.
The last time I brought Haer'Dalis along was my no-spellcasting party. His endgame gear: full plate, Tzu-Zan's bracers, Dragon Helm, Harper Pin, Equalizer or Angurvadal, Shield of the Order, ring of protection +2, ring of regeneration, cloak of displacement, boots of speed, belt of inertial barrier.
That's -20 AC and very good type modifiers with Enhanced Bard Song, most important saves 3 (death) and -3 (spell), a nice spread of resistances, and immunity to fear, stun, confusion, and normal weapons for the whole party.
Even going the whole game without using a single spell slot, just singing and using items or occasionally attacking, he was a very valuable member of the party. I had five warriors to kill the enemy with; I could afford to spend a party slot on pure support.
Haer'Dalis is normally quite squishy if you don't have the spell buffs up. Rogue hit points and no Con bonus (though the innate resistances compensate somewhat), no helmet, a very limited armor selection if you don't want to lock out spellcasting - you shouldn't have him rush into melee every battle. Hang back and play support until the time is right.
Comments
The situation is not that clear :
Even not taking the thieving skills into account :
at 0 xp, the FMT is better at fighting thanks to exceptionnal strength and weapon spec and better at casting -> advantage FMT
at 60000xp (mid BG1), the FMT is level 5/5/6. The bard is level 7.
The FMT has : better THACO, better damage, roughly same casting capacity. -> advantage FMT
at 161kx (endBG1), the FMT is level 6/6/7. The bard is level 10.
The FMT has roughly the same THACO and damage (19 str for both). The blade has better HP and better casting (having access to level 4 spells) -> advantage blade
at 220k xp (irenicus dungeon in BG2) :
the FMT is 7/7/8. the blade is 11.
The FMT has better THACO, better damage (1 permanent extra APR between the spec and level 7 fighter), same casting -> advantage FMT
at 1m xp (mid SOA) the FMT is 9/10/11 the blade is 14
The FMT has better THACO, better damage (1/2 extra APR), better HP, same casting -> advantage FMT
at 3m xp (end of SOA) the FMT is 12/12/14 the blade is 23
The FMT has better THACO, better damage (1/2 extra APR). the blade has much better casting-> advantage blade
at 4mxp (early TOB) the FMT is 13/13/16, the blade is 28 and basically does not progress anymore.
The FMT is then MUCH better at fighting AND better at casting, having access to higher level spells.
the more you get into TOB, the worse it becomes for the blade since they basically do not progress after 3mxp while the FMT keeps getting better and better
Overall, for group play, even without taking thieving skills and backstab into consideration :
- the FMT is better for all BG1, save for the very end (160kxp), early SOA and all TOB.
- The blade is better for the very end of BG1 (when the get to level 10, not before), and the end of SOA.
If you add thieving skills into the equation, there is really no debate, even for group play.
The blade is not bad, far from it but it really does not compare with the FMT, which is completely OP
I fail to see how +4 thaco/damage is THAT great
assuming a group with :
3 fighter types
Haer dalis singing
1 cleric casting
1 mage casting
that would basically enhance 15 attacks/round -> 60 extra damage
if haer dalis was attacking he probably end up doing more
And that's in a melee heavy group.
2.) I love how you pick 60 000 experience as if you had picked 70 000 experience instead the bard had been level 8, while the F/M/T would have been the same.
3.) The blade actually have more spells than the mage at 220K XP not to mention he is casting at a much higher level. The fighter won't have improved haste yet, so a blade with offensive spin will deal maximum damage and have only 1 APR less if both are using kundane or belm and the fighter is hasted. That's a 10 pure damage on a katana while the fighter can deal 1-10. I agree that the fighter is better in melee, but not by that much.
4.) Again the 1 million is hilarious as the blade got level 14 at 800 000 experience and his next level would be 1 100 000. So let's pick 1 100 000 instead and you're talking about a level 10 mage and 15 blade. The blade has one more level 4 spells but one less level 1 and 2 spells. A level 4 spell is much more important so this goes to the blade, not to mention you're casting at 5 levels higher than the mage.
5.) Once you get to ToB most of the game is over anyway and both the F/M/T AND the blade can easily solo the rest.
- The blade is better at early levels because of offensive spin, and he's better at the end of BG as well.
- The blade is better from the start of SoA until the end, he will always have better spell casting in SoA and he's casting with a much higher level.
It really comes down to if you're playing with a full party or not. I also value the thieving skills of the F/M/T and i very much enjoy the blade's lore which even if halved is pretty insane.
The blade will pretty much have better spell casting than the F/M/T from level 8 and forward. I really feel you should take a new look at offensive spin, especially with ranged weapons.
A F/M would have beat the blade, i'll agree to this.
A F/M/T would have beat the blade in a smaller party, i'll agree to this.
Both the F/M/T and F/M are disgustingly overpowered and broken, that one single class can somewhat challenge them is pretty amazing in itself.
2- You do have to pick some xp values. I picked them quite randomly.
At level 8, the blade has 3/3/1 for spells. The FMT has 4/2/2 casting and better fighting. I'll still pick the FMT
3- funny as here you don't mention that i picked the exact xp value favoring the blade.
Point taken that the blade casting is mildly better. But at that point, the FMT is already better at fighting
4- i don't get your point.
The blade got his last level at 880k. the next one at 1.1M. 1M is exactly in the middle.
For the FMT : last level of warrior was at 750k, next at 1.5, last level of mage at 750k next at 1.125 and last level of thief at 660, next at 1.32
So both class are basically halfway through their next level.
at 1.1M, blade 15 is 33332 while the level 10 mage is 44322. I'll give you again mildly better casting for the blade but much better fighting for the FMT
5- i like how you discard the last "third" of the game by saying both class can easily solo it. Let's face it, a FMT will solo EVERYTHING with ease. I don't think that's the real criteria there.
Casting wise, the blade is better from level 8 to 3M xp. From there having access to level 7 and 8 spells is MUCH more valuable than spellcasting level.
Your conclusion is pretty much based on the fact that blade is better at casting (which they are in SOA) but totally discard the fact than the FMT is WAY better at fighting and at thieving.
don't get me wrong, i played blade, i liked it (even if i find lore to be completely useless).
But it really does not compare with the OP FMT, even in groups IMO
@mumumomo plays mostly solo no reload, so obviously picks the full utility offered by the F/M/T over a Blade. I haven't been a Blade pc since before BGEE came out, I like the F/M/T better even in a full party of 6.
Of course using mods such as Rogue Rebalancing or an XP cap remover that allows F/M/T to get level 9 spells would be a completely different discussion and we're already getting off topic.
the best use of haer dalis IMO is :
- dual wield 2 speed weapons
- buff a lot (stoneskin, mirror image, PFMW, improved haste). Don't bother with tenser's before you face THACO problems. Tenser will make you weaker defensively (HP is useless compared to another cast of stoneskin of PFMW)
- kill everything
This is also why i don't find the extra level of spell casting of the blade to be that amazing : they cast mostly buffs.
The only spells they have on which it truly makes a difference are dispel magic (this one is nice) and skull trap/flame arrow. However even at level 20, the damage you can make with these spells (35 on average with a successful saving throw) is quite neglectable compared to what you will do in 1 round of attack at 8 APR (something closer to 120)
Dip it in poison.
Plunge it deep into the back of his neck.
DEEP!
EDIT: Give the blade a good wiggle a few times once you've plunged it deep, as if you're churning milk into butter.
Put a proficiency point in daggers and have him use the Boomerang Dagger +2 as a melee weapon, and later the Firetooth Dagger. Use Kundane in the other hand. This will give him 4 attacks per round. Once he gets HLA, he can use the scarlet ninjato thingy instead of Kundane which you give to someone else.
Give him a strength girdle or ogre gauntlets, preferably the girdle so he can wear some gauntlets that improve Thac0. Use the Girdle of Fortitude after every rest.
Give him the Ioun stone with -1 Thac0 and +10% HP. He can use Helm of Balduran once he gets HLA if you want, but it's not really necessary as he should have Stoneskin on at all times.
Use Tenser's Transformation whenever you don't need him to cast any other spells for a while.
I consider the F/M to be the better comparison than F/M/T since the only thief skill of a Blade is pickpocket.
But since HD is the closest thing to a F/M that Baldur's Gate has too offer in companions, he is one of the strongest available companions.
Having mage spells & defensive spin makes him the most tanky companion when it counts and there are basically two scenario's:
Either way he's great. Definitely better than all the Beamdog added party members - maybe unless if you rely very heavily on Nahal's with Neera.
Using Boomerang Dagger with Belm honestly seems like a waste to me, since Belm synergizes best with a weapon with really strong on-hit effects like Flail of Ages (slow + elemental damage), Celestial Fury (stun), Blackrazor (level drain), Foebane (larloch), etc.
The last time I brought Haer'Dalis along was my no-spellcasting party. His endgame gear: full plate, Tzu-Zan's bracers, Dragon Helm, Harper Pin, Equalizer or Angurvadal, Shield of the Order, ring of protection +2, ring of regeneration, cloak of displacement, boots of speed, belt of inertial barrier.
That's -20 AC and very good type modifiers with Enhanced Bard Song, most important saves 3 (death) and -3 (spell), a nice spread of resistances, and immunity to fear, stun, confusion, and normal weapons for the whole party.
Even going the whole game without using a single spell slot, just singing and using items or occasionally attacking, he was a very valuable member of the party. I had five warriors to kill the enemy with; I could afford to spend a party slot on pure support.
Haer'Dalis is normally quite squishy if you don't have the spell buffs up. Rogue hit points and no Con bonus (though the innate resistances compensate somewhat), no helmet, a very limited armor selection if you don't want to lock out spellcasting - you shouldn't have him rush into melee every battle. Hang back and play support until the time is right.