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Sorcerer or wild mage

wizzywazzowizzywazzo Member Posts: 33
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Now that i am done with finals (and my undergraduate degree for that matter!). I have the time to do another play thru of BG. I love playing mage classes, especially the sorcerer. For this run i am considering a wild mage and abusing the level one reckless deminer. Does anyone know if u can abuse this with spell trap and shooting magic missiles at yourself to recharge in the enhanced edition? I know when i tried this strategy in the old school bg2 it seemed very buggy.

Also, please comment on your personal preferences between wild mages and sorcerers. Or your personal mage strats you love to employ.

Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    I don't think you can get spell trap in BGEE. In BG2EE you could though it doesn't seem worth the risk to me.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited May 2014
    First of all congrats with your degree! You more than earned that new playthrough ;)

    Personally I'm more intrigued by the Wild Mage (even though I'm a fervent no-reloader), unless, as I've posted elsewhere one plays a Sorcerer and randomizes the Sorcerer's spell picks in some way or other. If not, you'll likely end up playing the same character with the pretty much the same spells obtained in the same order, that many many people (espcially powergamers) play. Another option would be to simply play your Sorcerer without looking at forums and playthroughs, so that you don't end up copying others. A great part of the fun imo is discovering new things or old things by yourself. But that's just my opinion.

    @Gotural deserves mentioning here. He created a Wild Sorcerer (adding the Wild Mage kit to his Sorcerer in a savegame editor). That way you don't have to choose between the two :)

    As to nice spell combos, I'm a fan of Improved Invisibility combined with Spell Immunity: Divination so that mages can't cast any spells at you (except AoE spells). Very potent.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited May 2014
    Blackraven said:

    Gotural deserves mentioning here. He created a Wild Sorcerer (adding the Wild Mage kit to his Sorcerer in a savegame editor). That way you don't have to choose between the two :)

    There was a Wild Sorcerer kit in these forums a while ago, but it's uncompatible since v1.2. Someone should update it's weidu & tp2 so it works with the actual version too, shouldn't be too complicated.
    Edit: of course it added one spell per level, which made it very OP.
  • wizzywazzowizzywazzo Member Posts: 33
    Blackraven said:

    First of all congrats with your degree! You more than earned that new playthrough ;)

    Thnx!

    one plays a Sorcerer and randomizes the Sorcerer's spell picks in some way or other. If not, you'll likely end up playing the same character with the pretty much the same spells obtained in the same order, that many many people (espcially powergamers) play. A great part of the fun imo is discovering new things or old things by yourself. But that's just my opinion.

    This is a good point. I am at the point when creating a sorcerer that i cannot help but powergame and strategize my spell picks excessively. The play thrus i have done where i am focused on role playing instead of power gaming have been much more enjoyable. For example one sorc i did was a sorc that focused on using mqgic that is fire based. His damage was one dimensional, and had some other utility but most of all it was a fun play thru.

  • wizzywazzowizzywazzo Member Posts: 33
    Also the wild mage sorcerer sounds like an awesome mix, thx for the suggestion.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2014
    If we're going to talk about it from a power gaming (since abusing NRD is mentioned) perspective.

    Wild Mages get built in IA through NRD. They get eventually get to cast more of a specific set of Spell Levels. 6 uses of NRD. vs the Sorcs usual load out of 6 spells per level.

    Wild surges can be a problem though, since (IIRC) Chaos Shields don't stack with themselves. So you're stuck with a maximum of +80 (so 1/5 for a Wild Surge, reduced by whatever positive, ineffectual Wild Surges there are in the 81-100 range of the Surge table)

    Anyway, back to spell slots. Of course there's the 6 spells per level that Wild Mages also get but have to be prememorized.

    So if a Wild Mage were to use NRD to cast Level 7 spells only, they'd have 12 uses of Level 7 spells (with 6 being predetermined) while a Sorc only has 6.

    If you tend to gravitate to 1 or 2 in your spell book, then Wild Mages with NRD are better. If you heavily use multiple levels Sorcs are better. Progression wise, Wild Mages already get those 6 uses of NRD at Level 13.

    Personally, I used to prefer Wild Mages since you can rig it that they'll never get a Wild Surge with Triple Imp. Chaos Shield. And I find NRD more abusable than the Sorc's 6 spells per level of your choosing. I end up just memorizing whatever spells I'm way more likely to use and just use NRD which gives me access to the entire spell book. But now that Chaos Shields don't stack... haven't really gotten around to doing a playthrough with a Wild Mage in BG2:EE. The lack of BG2 on Android limits my play time as well.

    Edit: Oh wait, I forgot, you don't get the 2x Level 1 spell ring in BG2.
  • wizzywazzowizzywazzo Member Posts: 33
    One reason i preferred a sorcerer in the past is the level 7 spell project image on the sorc is extremely potent. With every level 7 you have you can dump your entire book. With the wild mage it is less potent than with a sorcerer because a sorcs book is so much more flexible from pi to pi. I think for my next play thru i am leaning toward wild mage because i was to test out the mechanics of the wild mage further and test out spells i rarely use.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    That's the thing, I rarely end up having to use up an entire spell book worth of spells. Enemies would be dead and I'd have to get rid of the image so my Sorc or WM can start walking again.

    Does it mean I need to be more careful with what I memorize for which point of the game I'm at? Sure, but I feel that's fine given that power gaming a Sorc means picking the right spells anyway. Wild Mages require the player to keep picking the right spells for the entire game, while the Sorc only on level up.

    But the potential that 6 extra spells of any level cast at IA speed is the main selling point for the Wild Mage cheese wise.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    elminster said:

    I don't think you can get spell trap in BGEE. In BG2EE you could though it doesn't seem worth the risk to me.

    You can add spell trap to your book with the console or with EEKeeper in BG1:EE and then rely on NRD to cast it. I did that with my wild mage in BG1 but I put Timestop on him instead. I never liked cheating in that manner though so I only cast Timestop when I was goofing off with NRD (as I often do).

    Anyway the console code for spelltrap is as follows (case sensitive): 
    C:AddSpell("spwi902")
    Note: The cursor needs to be on top of the character to receive the spell when the code is entered into the console.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited May 2014
    Tresset said:

    elminster said:

    I don't think you can get spell trap in BGEE. In BG2EE you could though it doesn't seem worth the risk to me.

    You can add spell trap to your book with the console or with EEKeeper in BG1:EE and then rely on NRD to cast it. I did that with my wild mage in BG1 but I put Timestop on him instead. I never liked cheating in that manner though so I only cast Timestop when I was goofing off with NRD (as I often do).

    Anyway the console code for spelltrap is as follows (case sensitive): 
    C:AddSpell("spwi902")
    Note: The cursor needs to be on top of the character to receive the spell when the code is entered into the console.
    For some reason I was thinking Spell Shield. I guess because its at least a level 5 spell so there is a chance of your normally knowing it in BGEE. It doesn't act like Spell Trap though (in the sense of absorbing spells) so I'm not sure why I was thinking that (since its the spell turning type spells that do that).

    But yea what you said will work if you want Spell Trap in BGEE :)
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Saying that all the powergaming sorcerers are the same, while mostly true, does not make them any different from any powergaming mage since you will anway end up using the same spells.


    As for the original question :
    if no reload : sorcerer
    if normal play : wild mage

    For strategy :
    - focus on buffs/debuffs, not direct damage. The damage output of a caster is low anyway compared to a fighter. in BGEE direct damage should be managed through wands

    My preferred offensive tactics are :

    early BGEE : sleep is very efficient
    mid BGEE-early SOA : web will kill anything when combined with either :
    - free action meleers
    - ranger attackers
    - spiderspawn, MMM
    End game : time stop + whatever you want (improved alacrity + direct damage or shapechange : mindflayer)


    For defense :
    against physical
    Early BGEE: mirror image. No real need though.
    End of BGEE : stoneskin

    against magic :
    early BGEE : shield is great against magic missile users
    Then SI divination + improved invisibility, then spelltrap (from the staff of the magi)

    The best support spells IMO are :
    - haste/improved haste
    - breach
  • wizzywazzowizzywazzo Member Posts: 33
    early BGEE : shield is great against magic missile users
    Then SI divination + improved invisibility, then spelltrap (from the staff of the magi)

    Using improved invisibility and si divination is extremely powerful combination. But casting spell trap on top of it may be overkill, because enemies cannot cast direct targeting spells on invisible targets, therefore you cannot benefit from spell traps absorbing properties. I would think spell trap would be better used when not invisible in order to bait out spells, and maybe have a spell shield up so they cannot strip your defense. Thnx for you input @mumumomo‌ , i found it to be very insightful
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2014
    Haven't really encountered an enemy Mage in BG that actually got a chance to fire off a Magic Missile at someone with Shield before I webbed them.

    I guess there were some Magic Missiles thrown but mostly at whoever was in the front line.

    For an enemy Mage to target my Mage/Sorc it would mean either my Shielded character is in front all the time, or I somehow know there's a Mage somewhere who will cast Magic Missile first so I can bring my Shielded character up in front. The first scenario is a really bad idea, while in the second I'll just cast Web (and maybe a second one) and just pelt them with ranged weapons and bash them with anyone that has Free Action.
  • wizzywazzowizzywazzo Member Posts: 33
    Zyzzogeton said:

    Haven't really encountered an enemy Mage in BG that actually got a chance to fire off a Magic Missile at someone with Shield before I webbed them.

    I guess there were some Magic Missiles thrown but mostly at whoever was in the front line.

    For an enemy Mage to target my Mage/Sorc it would mean either my Shielded character is in front all the time, or I somehow know there's a Mage somewhere who will cast Magic Missile first so I can bring my Shielded character up in front. The first scenario is a really bad idea, while in the second I'll just cast Web (and maybe a second one) and just pelt them with ranged weapons and bash them with anyone that has Free Action.

    In general you are correct, however if you are soloing , or duoing ( which me and my brother would do often) shield is pretty useful in BG. Especially against those bounty hunter mages you encounter in the first couple of chapters, because they all cast MM. It especially makes the first encounter outside of the friendly arm inn an easy encounter at level 1.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    edited May 2014
    @wizzy,
    shield is indeed very useful when soloing :
    - tarnesh, nimbul or tranzig cannot harm you
    - with the elven bane girdle and 18 dex, your AC against missile reach -5. Making you practically immune to archers (very nice in nashkel mines and bandit camp)

    In group, it is rather useless
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Shield is also very useful because of the low casting time (1) which means if you are dispelled you can quickly rebuff if you need it.
  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    edited May 2014
    In the originals, you could greater sequencer 3x greater chaos shield, and wild surges were eliminated, effectively turning your wild mage into a normal mage with extra spell slots! Also, there was a little trick (using limited wish through dewomer, replenishing thusly your dewomers, and having infinite spellcasting like this). Wild mage in 2 original TOB was a pretty kinky, broken, imbalanced man.

    If you are still able to exploit these in the EEs, stick with wild mage, son.

    *Update*: There, corrected! Although i did not use this word for insult!
    Post edited by Demonoid_Limewire on
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited May 2014
    @Demonoid_Limewire, interesting info. I would change my wording a bit if I were you though. (One word in particular, I guess you which word.) You're going to get into trouble if you don't and I wouldn't like you to lose your account.
    Edit: this isn't meant to be threat, just some well-meant advice.
    @wizzywazzo have you made your decision yet?
    Post edited by Blackraven on
  • wizzywazzowizzywazzo Member Posts: 33
    Blackraven said:

    @wizzywazzo have you made your decision yet?

    I have selected the wild mage... My final answer! I have chosen the wild mage mostly to learn the mechanics of the wild mage cheese and experiment with lesser used spells .
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