Evil Ranger Kit
Lateralus
Member Posts: 903
There are those who disrespect nature, and escape the reach of the shadow druids. That's when they turn to their adaptable agents, a sect of rangers known as the: Dark Hunters. Their means are unorthodox, they are often confused with bounty hunters or assassins. To a Dark Hunter, those who do not respect nature are weak, and need to be removed like thinning a herd of cattle. While a ranger would guide a group of nobles around the dangers of the woods, dark hunters would lead them into a trap and show them how meaningless their gold is compared to the power of nature. Their general opinion of other rangers is that they are naive and weak. They can stalk their prey equally well in the woods or urban surroundings. They use cunning traps, poison, animal companions, and stealth to surprise and eliminate their marks. Like all rangers they are fearsome warriors trained to fight multiple foes at the same time.
Advantages:
*Beginning at level 1, they gain set snares as per the thief class, and gain an additional use every 5 levels. The skill progresses on par with their stealth skill.
*Beginning at level 5, they gain use poison as per the assassan kit, and gain an additional use every 5 levels thereafter.
Under consideration:
* x2 backstab that does not improve.
*+2 to hit from behind.
Disadvantages:
* No divine spell casting.
* Must be evil.
* Reputation cannot exceed 12 or they lose ranger skills and kit advantages.
* No racial enemy
Under consideration:
* Armor limited to chain mail, studded leather, leather, small shields, and bucklers.
EDIT: Removed the lack of free slots into two-weapon fighting as a disadvantage. Added "no racial enemy" as a disadvantage. Increased availability of trap usage.
Advantages:
*Beginning at level 1, they gain set snares as per the thief class, and gain an additional use every 5 levels. The skill progresses on par with their stealth skill.
*Beginning at level 5, they gain use poison as per the assassan kit, and gain an additional use every 5 levels thereafter.
Under consideration:
* x2 backstab that does not improve.
*+2 to hit from behind.
Disadvantages:
* No divine spell casting.
* Must be evil.
* Reputation cannot exceed 12 or they lose ranger skills and kit advantages.
* No racial enemy
Under consideration:
* Armor limited to chain mail, studded leather, leather, small shields, and bucklers.
EDIT: Removed the lack of free slots into two-weapon fighting as a disadvantage. Added "no racial enemy" as a disadvantage. Increased availability of trap usage.
Post edited by Lateralus on
6
Comments
(same as a normal ranger except where noted)
Benefits -
Gains set snare and poison use at the same rate as an assassin. (Gains set trap skill at the same progression as their stealth skill)
Gains a generic +1 to hit instead of a favored enemy (Considers all targets potential prey and has learned a bit about each type of creature).
x2 BS, never increases. (better at striking from ambush then a typical ranger, but isn't their primary focus, used mainly to finish off targets weakened by their poison or traps that they deem too dangerous for a protracted engagement)
Has a +4 bonus to saves vs poison creation, replaced at level 8 by full immunity to poison.
Penalties-
Limited to light armor (traps and poison use are very powerful, and imply a more sneaky bent anyway)
No divine spellcasting (not beholden to any power for their abilities, and live only for themselves and their own goals, rather then slaves to some pristine ideal like their fellow rangers).
Cannot dual-class as a cleric or druid (if R/D is ever implemented), for the reason above. (also it would give the cleric half access to druid spells that it shouldn't have, just for having a ranger class in the mix, completely undermining that penalty).
no free two-weapon training and is restricted to daggers, short-swords, bows, and darts only.
can only be neutral or evil (lethal poison and trap use isn't something typically associated with good people but neutrals with a strong cause (such as Shadow druid enforcers) or evil motivated enough to do so, will).
Would be better restrictions imo.
Thought about including a 1/day wolf summon at 4, upgraded to a dire wolf at 8, and a cave bear at 12 in place of their charm animal ability...but then I got to thinking about it...that actually sounds like an excellent general ranger ability. (The only change would be removing the Beastmaster's find familar and giving them 1 use at creation, a 2nd at 4, and final one at 8 for a total of 3 per day, over the 1 use other rangers get..except Minsc who already has a permanent companion and doesn't need it).
* Balance. You don't want this to be the only kit from that class that players will ever want to take, or become a better option than other classes.
* Theme. There has to be a consistent feel to the class that is consistent with the role playing aspects and motivations of the class members.
With the in mind... Progressing the trap skill in a similar fashion to the stealth skill is what I had in mind to, I'm glad you pointed that out.
This is a fighter class, the practice of martial combat is still their primary function. So I must insist on the assassin skill being less relied upon tool for this kit. Dark Hunters represent the cruel and brutal side of nature, poison is reserved for those who in their view poison the land. It's a special touch, an icing on the cake for them.
"Gains a generic +1 hit instead of a favored enemy (Considers all targets potential prey and has learned a bit about each type of creature)."
For balancing reasons we (ie. anybody with an active interest in fleshing this thing out) can't allow this. There are about 12 enemies to select from at first level? So that's spreading out at least a +12, may as well just give them a +1 to hit everything on the planet at that point.
The heart of that bonus is passion and reactive anger, the ranger takes on a personal vendetta . DH have a tempered anger, and a patient mind. Cold and calculating avengers who do not revere the wild like their good aligned cousins. They see nothing wrong with befriending a wolf to use as a sacrifice to simply distract their mark. Everything is a tool to use against their mark. Ghouls roaming the woods can serve a purpose for them later on. A giant spiders venom has a use. Imagine that they would rather use their enemies perversions of nature against them and allow them to exist for that purpose. A good ranger would guide a group of nobles around such monsters, an evil ranger would lead them into the heart of what their greed and neglect have allowed to persist. They are twisted and evil, the Shadowdruids don't even like to deal with them.
Definitely like the idea of eliminating the racial enemy bonus and listing that as a disadvantage. Perhaps using that instead of eliminating the free 2WS pips.
My concern is making the vanilla ranger stuff irrelevant, I don't want to take away everything that makes a ranger a ranger.
"x2 BS, never increases. (better at striking from ambush then a typical ranger, but isn't their primary focus)"
I would love to include this idea, but it's just too many thief abilities lumped into a martial class. It also belittles the stalker kit, making it irrelevant. Fits in well with the kits theme, though.
"Has a +4 bonus to saves vs poison creation, replaced at level 8 by full immunity to poison."
An interesting idea for sure. It's kind of a statement that the twisted state of nature can actually gain strength by adapting. Conversely, my imagining of the dark hunters is that of a predatory kit and less of an adjusted victim. So ultimately this bonus does not tie in well with the theme.
"Penalties-
Limited to light armor (traps and poison use are very powerful, and imply a more sneaky bent anyway)"
We can keep this under consideration, it's a good drawback. Theme wise it can work, although it should include chain mail. Dark Hunters are not opposed to the cities, that is where most of their marks run and hide. So training with heavy armor is not a bad option for them.
"No divine spellcasting (not beholden to any power for their abilities, and live only for themselves and their own goals, rather then slaves to some pristine ideal like their fellow rangers)."
Agreed, divine spells do not suit them.
"Cannot dual-class as a cleric or druid (if R/D is ever implemented), for the reason above. (also it would give the cleric half access to druid spells that it shouldn't have, just for having a ranger class in the mix, completely undermining that penalty)."
Agreed.
"no innate two-weapon training and is limited to proficiency with all weapons except daggers, short-swords, short-bows and darts which can be specialized as normal. (They're built more around subterfuge and dirty fighting, favoring weapons that can strike from afar or be easily concealed and that quickly apply their toxins with minimal risk to themselves)."
Again, we have different visions for the kit. They are a martial class, I don't want them to lose that identity. Nerfing the assassination skills is a better option than nerfing their combat skills.
"can only be neutral or evil (lethal poison and trap use isn't something typically associated with good people but neutrals with a strong cause (such as Shadow druid enforcers) or evil motivated enough to do so, will)."
They are a necessary evil, not glorified enforcers. The evil alignment limitation should stay. Shaowdruids would work with them in secret, they provide the Dark hunters with targets and that in itself is the reward for the dark hunters. Think of the kit like this, they are domesticated, urban fighter/assassins. Who want to be druids or rangers, and are going about it the wrong way. They don't care for divine intervention, or being the guiding conscience of the frontier. What they do is ugly, and their ideals are radical and twisted.
"Thought about including a 1/day wolf summon at 4, upgraded to a dire wolf at 8, and a cave bear at 12 in place of their charm animal ability...but then I got to thinking about it...that actually sounds like an excellent general ranger ability. (The only change would be removing the Beastmaster's find familar and giving them 1 use at creation, a 2nd at 4, and final one at 8 for a total of 3 per day, over the 1 use other rangers get..except Minsc who already has a permanent companion and doesn't need it)."
Yeah we wouldn't want to belittle the beast master kit, their charm animal ability is enough. And besides, I like the idea that the charm effect fails and the animals attack them instead of working with them.
I will update my original post, thanks for the great feedback, let's keep fleshing this out!
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/17835/evil-ranger-kit
Personally I'm all for an evil ranger kit. But, if possible, I'd like to see a kit theme which centers around Malar, the Wild Hunt and the bloodthirsty aspects of lycanthropy. Instead of controlling the beast blood like shapeshifter druids do, this kind of ranger kit could seek to embrace it to the fullest. Ruled over by instinct and of the thrill to kill, such a kit would breath fresh air into the ranger class. A new, primeval flavour, so to speak. But that may be just me.
Assassins get a higher BS bonus, +1 hit/damage (basically expertise with all weapons), level more quickly, and while held back due to limit thief points, brings a thief's utility (and because of plenty of options available to boost stealth or outright invisibility is free to focus on Lock/disarm/set traps instead of stealth while still back-stabbing). this allows them to both bring utility while dealing heavy damage with BS or poison, or traps, but are less effective in situations where they're forced into straight combat or the target is immune to BS, Poison (or they're out), not enough room to drop a trap (the Final battle or ravager fight). They also get UAI and epic thief traps.
Stalkers can specialize in any weapon, can cast Improved haste (which is completely broken IMO, on top of everything else), and eventually hit x4 BS. They also get a bonus to stealth.
My version would trade straight up melee for heavy reliance on traps/poison for the lions share of damage, while having a tiny bit of umph when attacking from stealth to finish off an already wounded target. Of course unlike an assassin they can also start with Ex str, warrior thac0 progression, high hp, and eventually get warrior bonus attacks, making them still more martial bent then any other non-warrior class, even if they sacrifice some of their equipment/proficiency.
Unlike the assassin, they lack any real utility and are purely a damage dealer, but also unlike an assassin, can still fight straight up in a pinch due to being built on a warrior frame if they're out of poison or can't lay a trap, but due to limiting their specialization to only select weapons, encourages them to use daggers or short-swords as their back-up melee weapon due to the extra 1/2 attack.
However, unlike the stalker, they can't gamble a huge amount of damage on 1 attack, lack an innate bonus to stealth (without Shadow armor/boots of stealth a max level (for BG1) ranger still only has about a 60% base chance of hiding before lighting penalties), and are less free with their choice of weaponry to favoring more assassin-style weaponry. They also lack spell-casting (minor though low level druid casting is) but also lack those ridiculous extra stalker spells, especially Improved Haste, which is arguably one of the most powerful spells in the game, especially for a warrior type. Even vs enemies who can't be back-stabbed, the stalker can just self-buff with IH and smash their face in while the DH would need other sources and would still be much weaker due to lack of specialization in stronger weapons (amounting to 20 less damage at 10 attacks then a stalker, or less maximum of they use their limited choice of specialized weapons). While this kit would be disadvantaged vs poison immune enemies or situations where there isn't enough room to drop traps. Not devastatingly so though, about the same level of loss an archer suffers vs piercing immune enemies or if they lack ammo to damage a particular enemy.
The way AC works, every point of thac0 is worth exponentially more, because it greatly increases the likelihood of a blow landing vs extreme ACs. +4 to one creature is WAAAAAY more powerful then a generic +1 hit, especially if it's a creature type that typically has high ac, also true at lower levels where every point of Thac0 counts (until around 10 or so, where things start to plateau). I originally had +1 hit/damage, but after checking some things, decided that was way too powerful and undermined restricting on what weapons they could specialize in, and knocked it down to just +1 hit vs all. (the original idea was +1 hit vs PC races, but that might be too much work and resist getting the kit considered).
The poison save bonus is due to their constant fooling around with poisons that have built of a general resistance to them, that over their career eventually develops to full blown immunity. (The PnP Assassin, who are pure poison specialists instead of BSers with poison like the BG version, get a similar ability due to their constant interaction with poisons).
Restricting their weapons is the main difference from a stalker...you might could go as far as denying them any weapons at all except for daggers, short-swords, bows, and darts, to represent them being so lacking in honor that they won't use weapons that are more suited for straightforward combat. Unlike the beast-master, they have many more directly offensive options, but lack the latter's specialization at summoning minions to distract enemies.
As for the armor, I'm willing to agree to elf/drow chain, but not normal chain. Unless they open up the ability to add an exclusion to allow only certain classes to use thief skills in chainmail (which would basically be this class able to stealth/set traps, and bards to pickpocket).
That said...your original run of the kit was pretty much a PnP stalker (minus their ambush bonus (an extra 1d6 damage on their next attack when striking from ambush), just with poison use in place of spells and evil instead of good.
Trap and poison gain is already extremely slow (compounded by the rangers MUCH slower level progression relative to an assassin (BG1: A - 10, R - 8, BG2 SoA: A- 23, R- 16, ToB: A-40, R-36)) and due to slow progression of trap setting skill, it'll be more icing early only, till about 7 or so, when it breaks 50% mark. Capping to 99 at 13. They also lack the ability to get HLA thief traps or UAI, which means an assassin can still out assassin them, even when their BS was useless before they got x6.
The evil thing is subjective, and i'm not so much opposed to evil, it's that rangers themselves are good only, leaving straight neutral and evil groups SOL if they want a ranger along. Blackguards by definition require some interaction with fiends and evil powers, but this kit does not and is simply amoral person, which can be found among neutral as well as evil beings (just more commonly in evil).
Someone who originally wanted to be a ranger, but couldn't stand all the high minded rhetoric and subservience to nature/good deities and left before they completed training, instead using what martial and wilderness skills they learned combined with knowledge of poisons and traps they picked up to offset their lesser proficiency in straight combat and disdain for honorable conduct to become Mercenaries interested in pursuing their own goals, knowing that with all the high-minded rangers running about, those with less pure intentions would also need the services only those with ranger-like skills could provide.
The class is actually only slightly above a Beast-master in terms of abilities, as currently posted. Archer's still deal WAAAY more consistent, sustain damage, and stalkers are better in straight up combat (due to IH) as well as stronger sneak attacks for enemies that are vulnerable. And plain rangers are the best tanks of the bunch. This class would simply a non-good alternative, that traded in some combat ability and spell-casting for limited use poison and traps which while potentially powerful, require room to set up.
Also their lack of any divine spells makes it literally impossible for them to fall, since they have no patron on whom their abilities depend, merely their training and expertise and it's more the nature of what they do that prevents them from being good.
And even if they did have divine abilities, much like a blackguard, the forces of evil just don't care. If you turn against one, another is perfectly willing to take over supply your powers to work against their rivals, knowing that the lure of the unfettered power and self-fulfillment will eventually draw you back even if you dabble in Goodness for awhile. Good can only fail once (at least in 2nd edition), while evil doesn't care if you backslide, the easiest way to draw someone back is to continue offering them an easy means to indulge their depravity.
For a Dark Hunter, animosity is everything. He's not bold like a blackguard, who is so evil that he radiates it like it were a heat source. A dark hunters greatest weapon is convincing the world that he is not a dark hunter. If he has a heroic reputation he is going to enter a new town and everybody is going to point and stare, whispering things like, "I wonder who's beer he is here to poison?" and "Oh man I totally should not have taken that huge dump in the forrest the other night, especially after eating Lantonesse!".
No.
So they keep a low profile or else they lose their edge, and their state of mind becomes the same as a fallen ranger. Dark hunters just want to appear to be fighters, or good aligned rangers to those without divination powers, not revealing their treacherous nature until it's time to strike.
The rest of your post is very informative, maybe a little conflicted at times? I'm confused, so give me the simple summary version please.
Stalkers get a bonus to stealth, I suggested no bonus to stealth.
Stalkers get divine and arcane magic, my kit allows for neither.
Stalkers get to backstab and improve at it, I'm leaning against any backstabbing advantage or a very limited one.
Dark hunters allow poison use and trap use, stalkers don't use either technique.
They are also different themes. The only thing they have in common is that they are both accustomed to dealing in urban environments. Stalkers go into towns to gather intell to serve good, dark hunters do it for evil purposes. They work well off of each other and so long as the Dark Hunter kit doesn't have backstabbing they will remain uniquely different.
I can imagine a scenario where a game of espionage is played out between a dark hunter and a stalker. Let's pretend that the dark hunter has entered a town to eliminate a target that has been chopping down trees to keep his family warm. In the dark hunters mind, he is being excessive and must be eliminated. A stalker is onto what the DH is doing and has plans on protecting the family and dealing with the DH. In the end, the stalker creeps up behind the dark hunter and just as he lands a devastating backstab, traps are triggered that the dark hunter prepared ahead of time. They both suffer terrible damage, and then a kick ass melee fight breaks out with the dark hunter using poison to gain the edge while the stalker uses magic.
I think there is a definite need to fill within the ranger class, a trap using kit and an evil aligned kit are due.
While not exactly correct, if the BG stalker was limited to x2 BS only, no mage spells, no stealth bonus, and could set traps, it would pretty much be as close to the PnP stalker as it could get in BG's system (the x2 BS replacing their 1d6 first-attack bonus damage during surprise rounds).
I like kits that have unique skills/powers (e.g. the Sunsoul Monk), so my idea for an evil ranger would be something along the lines of a 'Corrupted Ranger' - a ranger who has been tainted or corrupted by an evil forest spirit. They can use this tainted power to aid them in vanquishing those who threaten them.
Advantages:
* Summon a 'whipping vine'/'strangling vine' once a day/5 levels - similar to 'entangle', this spell slows victims in an area and inflicts a small amount of damage/round while they remain in the area. Roll a save check to negate the damage.
* Dark mist once a day/5 levels - create a mist that confuses or fears enemies within the mist.
* Corrupt animal once a day/ ? levels - the Corrupted Ranger corrupts the mind of an animal, putting it into a zombie-like state. The ranger receives bonus attributes based on the animals highest stat. E.g., bonus strength from a bear, bonus dexterity from a wolf etc.
Disadvantages:
* Having a closer link with nature has restricted the use of two-handed weapons (or maybe can only become proficient?).
* No charm animal.
* Must be of evil alignment.
Now I know it's not perfect, nor do I try to refer any of these powers to other D&D powers, but I just think it would be a nice twist to the ranger class. I originally thought of a ranger with poison would be good, but I think it would be too similar to the Blackguard kit hence why I thought of the 'summon vines' power instead (still gives some sort of damage/round ability but doesn't copy a power straight from another kit). Plus I like the idea of a corrupted ranger protecting his/her blighted grove by being able to corrupt the animals around him and making him/her stronger.
Anyway, I doubt we'll see Beamdog add in any new features/kits for the Enhanced Editions (apart from what they already have), I just wanted to throw in my two cents in the discussion
What about HLA? Not that Track isnt, uh, yeah... so, she'd need a new hla.
Personally, I think that it's underpowered as it is.
I would increase the backstab like the Stalker (x2 is too little) and add Poison Use like the Assassin.
Perhaps a custom Favored Enemies (Humans/Demihumans) and cannot be changed.
For example Beastmaster. Although in Copper Coronet is evil Beastmaster, your Beastmaster can not be evil.
Stalker also isn´t someone who should be automatically good.
In Baldur's Gate are plenty of characters named after their class. (Mage, Thief, Monk)
As you can see he is a level 8 half-elf fighter. He also lacks access to spells such as cure light wounds, detect evil, entangle, bless, doom, armor of faith that he should otherwise have at his level if he were a ranger (which should be in the "known spells" section). In addition he does not have charm animal (the rangers innate ability). For whatever reason he has web (which as far as his script is concerned he never uses)
(spoilered because it was taking up half the page)
By comparison Valygar at level 8 has all of these things
With facts can win every amateur.
C:CreateCreature("Beast")
and then ctrl-q him in your party and see that he is a fighter.
Some things are in code and some thing are in lore. And lore always beat code.
According to lore is quite possible that this guy is "real" Beastmaster.
Moreover, this was never been about the technical side, but about moral side.
BG2 description (spoilered for space reasons)
Advantages:
– +15% to Move Silently and Hide In Shadows.
– May use Find Familiar ability to summon a pseudo dragon (if lawful or neutral good) or fairy dragon (if chaotic good) companion.
– 8th level: May cast Animal Summoning I.
– 10th level: May cast Animal Summoning II.
– 12th level: May cast Animal Summoning III.
Disadvantages:
– May not use any metal weapons (for example: swords, halberds, war hammers, or morning stars).
– May not wear armor heavier than studded leather."
PnP description (spoilered for space reasons)
So we have a character who refuses to hand over a key to free the slaves/gladiators, and who despite calling himself the "keeper" of the animals in the copper coronet he then goes ahead and has them fight to the death for entertainment purposes. In addition he denies these animals free will by caging them. The only companionship he shows is to Tabitha and even then he still describes himself as being its master.
Other than his name what demonstrates that he is a beastmaster (as per lore)? He certainly isn't acting like one.
Seems to me that he acting much more like Berserker.
Also, Druids can be only neutral, but Shadow Druids are often evil.
Paladins can be only good, and Anarg is evil...
Lore always beat code :-)
Minsc's ability to go berserk makes sense given that he is from Rashamen. Like his illegal level of wisdom it can already be explained for in lore.
All druids are true neutral in 2nd edition D&D. That includes shadow druids. Otherwise they start suffering consequences (like losing access to certain powers).
Anarg is a fallen paladin. Also he has an established story as to him being a paladin in the past (unlike this "beastmaster" character).
This is getting way off topic (since this discussion is supposed to be about an evil ranger kit).
Special skills: Traps, poisonous arrows, poisonous tongue, charm person
Disadvantages: only evil.
mwuhehehe